Very new, deciding between building or buying pre-built

[Loco Mot1ves]

I am very new to E-bikes and am converting from motorized bike to electric for a variety of reasons.
I have next to no experience with building or have the largest variety of tools, but I have a garage and from what I've seen in the price difference of building vs pre-bought, buying tools wouldn't be a problem by the looks of it. This brings up one of the other issues, and that's wanting to get one out on the road ASAP for my commuting needs, as I've been forced to carpool recently and an E-bike would not only make life easier, but give me a toy on the side to play with.

I've mainly been looking at the Stealth Bomber and Fighter or HPC Revolution or XC series, but from what I've read and also having a local dealer who sells Stealth E-bikes makes me lean towards that brand. With that being said, the willingness to spend that kind of money is me saying that it won't be an issue.
As for the bike I have to build on, I own a 2008 Specialized Stumpjumper hardtail. Depending on costs, I might be able to find a full suspension on kijiji or Craigslist, but I imagine that's harder to build around and find one that will have enough travel to support the extra weight when doing trail riding on the side. I would imagine I'm looking at something with DD and LiFePo4 battery?

Desired max speed on level ground - 60kmh - 120kmh
Desired max range at what cruising speed - Range - 80km @ 80kmh
Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert - 26"
Brake type of motor wheel - Disc
Rider weight - 165
Terrain. Exp: Commuting is mostly flat with some hills and I also want to be able to do trail riding which has a lot of ups and downs in the River Valley in Edmonton.
Budget - No budget. If I go pre-built, I might look into some extra mods as well.

If there's any information I'm missing, I'll do the best I can to provide it. Another important note would probably be the fact that when winter comes around, the weather can be pretty severe, which is why the tires normally seen on the Stealth bomber and fighter are appealing.

- I may be on some weeks travelling upwards of 600km/week, 120km/day, and then maybe some bonus riding on my free time going on trails mainly, so durability and reliability are huge.

 

[ecycler]

Range - 80km @ 80kmh

This is not really ebike territory especially with LiFe chemistry. That is going to be one large pack. You are definitely right about one thing. The DD hub is the only way to get near the level of performance you are after, but I would recommend you look at something like this:

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/specs.php

 

[dogman dan]

50 miles at 50 mph, this is where I keep saying,

Get a 150-250 cc gas, enduro motorcyle. if it doesn't run, then you have the frame and rims you need for your conversion to electric. It will need title and license in the USA.

Hell, will an off road zero even do that kind of range and speed? I think not! That fast sure, but that far I'm not so sure.

50 mph for 10-15 miles, lots of bikes here that can do that.

 

[wesnewell]

For that kind of range and speed you'll need a recumbent bike/trike, 30ah of 24s lipo, and a 3t mxus 3000 motor or similar. Your probably looking at $1000 for the battery, $500 for the motor kit, and $500 and up for the bike/trike. That would give you a 100km range at 80kph on level ground, no wind.
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
MXUS 4503, 94V .1ohm 30ah, 60A controller, full recumbent with 27" wheel dia. (26" wheel with Cyclops tire)

 

[ebent]

Way to fast for a trike to cruise at. I hit 34mph on my new build today. Riding an HP Scorpion 26 it was stable. But the brakes are not designed for that speed. I was cut off in traffic at 30 mph. Required to lock the brakes. It was hairy. Or what about a front tire blow out? Get a junk motorcycle to build. The frame can handle it. Or slow down and enjoy the ride. If you build a bike to solve your requirements I think you would be uncomfortable doing long very fast rides and the bike would deteriorate.

 

[dogman dan]

What you say you want, won't happen with a stealth or HPC. Not 80kph for 80 k.

So Honda, or bike like it.



Or Zero



Bear in mind, the pictures are of street legal vehicles.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I'm sorry, but what you are after is simply beyond what a bicycle is capable of. While there are some high end $12,000 bikes (stealthelectricbikes.com) that can handle the lower end of the speed you are after, they can't even come close to the range at those speeds.

What you need is a motorcycle. Zero makes an electric motorcycle that can meet the speed and range you're after. A gas motorcycle can do it cheaper. A bicycle would tear it's self apart trying, even if you could strap enough battery and a big enough motor to it to make those speeds and range.

While many prebuilt ebikes make some wild claims about their range, they are often giving maximum range by a light rider on a closed track with hurricane for a tail wind while pedaling like an Olympic athlete at 3 kph, or some other ridiculous condition. A typical pre-built ebike with a 36v 10AH battery is good for a reliable 16km range at 30 kph. Every time you double the speed, you quadruple the power needed. So for the same size battery, it would cut the range by 4 times. If a 36v 10ah battery could get the bike up to 60kph, you would have 4km useable range.

 

[Loco Mot1ves]

It's pretty clear i've only just started reading into this stuff and what I was looking for is a bit too optimistic. I jumped into buying a motorized bike that does 45 kmh, and that takes about 2 hours to make the commute, but it doesn't have enough gas for a return trip which is where the ability to recharge an electric bike comes in handy. I want to cut that 2 hours down to 1.5 hours, so being able to do 60 km/h one way on a single charge would be perfect, and aren't there pedal assist options and regenerative braking that can assist in achieving the speed and ranges described?

The 60 km range is mostly a situational commute as well, I just want to be prepared and able to do it, as there are a few places in town i've been able to ride my pedal bike to easily that are around the 30 km range (which would change my requirements considerably if it were only that).

Right now, I don't have a license which is one of the main reasons i'm looking for an alternative means of transport. Otherwise, one of those Zero motorcycles would be awesome.

 

[amberwolf]

The first thing you probably wanna do is take the vehicle you plan to ride at those speeds, and actually ride it at them, with stuff strapped to it to simulate the added weight (40-50lbs or more, most likely) of all the motor and battery you'll need to do it. Then try to stop from those speeds, repeatedly, and see what happens. Also ride in all the conditions you'll see, including rain and potholes and stuff, if you have those there. Becuase riding at those speeds is totally different from riding at more bicycle-like speeds.

If you have a machine capable of handling them (and reflexes for it) it's ok, but if you don't, it may be a deathwish.

You might also consider what your local law enforcement might think about the idea, if it matters to you, depending on your local bicycle laws. Some places don't care, and some care a lot.

I want to cut that 2 hours down to 1.5 hours, so being able to do 60 km/h one way on a single charge would be perfect, and aren't there pedal assist options and regenerative braking that can assist in achieving the speed and ranges described?

You need to use the simulators listed on the ES wiki page (linked in the wiki topic at the top of every forum thread list page) and show yourself how much power is needed for the speeds and terrain using the vehicle you have. Then you can see that pedalling at those speeds will probably not contribute enough power to make a difference, even with huge chainrings on the cranks, unless you can already pedal really hard for extended periods of time for high speeds on your own.

Regen braking will at best get you a few percent back, if you stop a lot, so don't count on that. If you don't stop much it won't do anything for you. But if you do stop a lot, accelration away from the stop will eat up more power than you got back from stopping, anyway.

You'll still need a very large pack to get the Wh in it you need to do what you want.

There is a wiki page for the "i'm a noob and I wanna go 50mph" topic, and you need to read thru all the threads in that, because they will explain all this stuff to you, as we have repeatedly explianed it to the many people coming here wanting a motorcycle on a bicycle budget.

The 60 km range is mostly a situational commute as well, I just want to be prepared and able to do it, as there are a few places in town i've been able to ride my pedal bike to easily that are around the 30 km range (which would change my requirements considerably if it were only that).

Range is easy.

Speed is easy.

Range AND speed are hard (expensive, or heavy, or big, or all three).



At low speeds, I can get a lot of range on my builds...but if I were to try to ride them at even 30MPH, then aside from the police probably impounding the bikes and ticketing me in the 4-digit+ range, I'd only get maybe half the range (at best) that I would at 20MPH (the legal limit in AZ).

I think the last range test I did on my EIG NMC 14s 20Ah pack on CrazyBike2 got me around 30 miles at an average of 18MPH, when done on a single long trip. When done as my usual 2.4mile-at-a-time commute with lots of stops and starts, the average speed goes down a few MPH and the range drops some miles, because of the power used to start from a stop so many times.

 

[wesnewell]

The same setup I mentioned previously with a 40A controller will do 71km at 60kph on a standard bike. ~$1500 plus bike of your choice. Of course it too will be illegal in most places.

 

[macribs]

People tend to freak out a bit when posts like yours show up. I must say your goal is not that "off the chart" - even if many claims it is. There are several ways you can achieve your goals. Probably the easiest would be a recumbent trike, with full suspension. Full suspension would make for a more comfortable ride and even a safer ride. The laid back seat helps so much with the wind resistance and keeps the battery usage as low a possible. It seems you have a rather large budget but no licenses for motorcycle. A trike will suit you well. If you get one of Matts DaVinci drives in dual motor setup you will have all the power you need for at top speed of 80 mph or so.

Those outriders trikes Alpha and Horizon will come with a full suspension setup. I am sure they can even hook you up with a dual motor setup and they can build batteries to your spec. Put bike to charge while at work and ride home confident in your mileage. To reach your goal and specs will not come cheap. It is doable but expect to pay a premium. If your wallet is thick and your mind is set just pick up the phone and get the ball to start rolling. Avoiding blow outs and flat tires, just go tubeless motorcycle light weight alu rims and high speed rated motorcycle tires. If you feel stopping power is not enough get custom made rotors and caliper mountings. 2 x 4 piston calipers up front should do the trick.

If picture does not show the whole trike just right click and open pick in new tab to see it all.

 

[SlowCo]

So this might be a good starting point:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=70364&p=1061928#p1061928
Longer gearing and more battery and you're good to go...

 

[macribs]

So this might be a good starting point:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=70364&p=1061928#p1061928
Longer gearing and more battery and you're good to go...

That is a nice trike - but for riding 120 Km each and every day - I am not to sure about that. I think you will start missing suspension before you reached half the distance to work.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

Beating your commuter bike up riding it off road doesn't seem like a prudent course if you need it to be really dependable for a commute.

Concentrate on doing one job well or you are likely to end up with something that doesn't fit any of your needs very well. If you build your own bike I'll be shocked if you get it just the way you want on the first try, I have two complete self built ebikes, two partials and enough parts including motor for another one as well and I don't really consider myself all that committed a hobbyist compared to some here. Just for example tires, nice smoooth rubber donuts that will work well for a high speed pavement commute are going to be less than optimum on the dirt and of course grippy knobby dirt donuts are not much fun carving forty degree lean angle corners on the street at speed (maintaining speed through corners really helps efficiency numbers if you live somewhere with a lot of curves and turns).

Get your commuter bike working and get some experience, you'll understand and appreciate a lot more what you want in an ebike after you ride one for a while and you are really talking two different riding regimes. A lot of the parts are reusable in different bikes anyway and you can try out different configurations without spending a ton more money later on. I found out I like quiet, I have five motors of different noise levels and I like the quietest one best by far. Having a silent "Hand of God" push me down the road is a feeling I enjoy.

For a high speed and long range commuter I'm biased towards a semi recumbent for comfort, visibility and low drag at speed for good range. Putting a motor on a bent solves the two biggest problems, starting off uphill from a stop and climbing hills. A higher seat to keep you up in the traffic view and a moderately leaned back position gives you a good view of traffic in front and to the sides. Once you get used to it the recumbent position feels a lot safer coming at things with your feet rather than your head and I speak as a long term cafe racer builder rider. One final advantage to a bent that is not at all obvious is that on average cars give you a considerably wider berth than a standard bike, it's really nice getting treated with a small amount of respect on the road sometimes.

For a cost is no object commuter I'd go with one of these and a motor system of your choice, with a 20" rear there are any number of DD hubs that on 72V would scoot you right on down the road and up all but really severe hills. Obviously carrying enough batteries for 60 km shouldn't be a problem, the load total is 50 kg.

 

[Loco Mot1ves]

Something I just found recently was Qulbix, looking at the specs on the Q140R and I input those into this simulator: http://www.electricbikerange.info/Electric_bike_range.html
Based on that, it looks like the bike can make the trip comfortably at 45 and 60 kmh. Trying to get a reply from them for more info, but it is looking possible, but that bike is almost a full sized motorbike compared to a lot of other E-bike's out there. It's got 10000w, 6000w constant, 72v 20amp.

 

[dogman dan]

Ok, since you cant legally ride a motorcycle, you want to ride an illegal homemade motorcycle with pedals.

Re the cops, what's the difference? Other than the homemade motorcycle looks like something a cop should pull over and investigate?

You can easily make a bike that's better than the gasser, and ride a bit faster than strictly legal and likely get ignored by the cops. Build for about 30 mph /50 kph, and your range will not be impossible. At 30 mph, with some faux pedaling, you might not be so obviously illegal to the cops.

You need to forget a quicker commute, and just build a reliable commuter bike cops will ignore. That goal, we can help you with.

 

[Loco Mot1ves]

I would have to ride the bike at 30mph/50kmh with pedalling to make the commute even on that bike, and if I'm not mistaken, it has two modes. One running at 6000w and the other 10000w. I still like the idea of being able to take it up to the lake and ride it open on the ATV trails with my friends. I'll have n opportunity to go and talk to the police and make some inquirers, because I know I can go around at 45kmh legally where I live.

 

[ecycler]

Right now, I don't have a license which is one of the main reasons i'm looking for an alternative means of transport. Otherwise, one of those Zero motorcycles would be awesome.

Just get a license and M-class endorsement and all your problems are over. What country and state/province are you in? We may be able to give you some tips as the process is not too hard in some places.

 

[ebent]

If 45kph cruising is adequate then there are possibilities to consider. My thinking is that is the practical top cruising speed for bike commutes. It can be done faster but you are looking at a very expensive proposition. Suspension would be valuable at 45kph. It will add longevity to your bike and your back. Drop it down to 40 kph you saved a lot of money and are approaching a reasonable combination of bike, battery and motor. With enough money anything can be done. But as you demand higher speeds and longer distances logic dictates alternative options. Start your commute 10 or 15 minutes earlier and enjoy your ride.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Something I just found recently was Qulbix, looking at the specs on the Q140R and I input those into this simulator: http://www.electricbikerange.info/Electric_bike_range.html
Based on that, it looks like the bike can make the trip comfortably at 45 and 60 kmh. Trying to get a reply from them for more info, but it is looking possible, but that bike is almost a full sized motorbike compared to a lot of other E-bike's out there. It's got 10000w, 6000w constant, 72v 20amp.

The Qulbix Q140R is like a light weight Stealth Bomber. It will be less capable of meeting your needs, as the stealth was only going to meet the bottom end of them. Great bike... Well, awesome bike, but the Stealth Bomber is still better. They claim 6000 watts continuous and 10000 watts peak from their top 2 motors, The Crown, and the Cromotor. The Crown (TC series) is a 2000 watt continuous motor that would have a hard time hitting 10,000 watts peak. Its rated for much less. http://www.crystalyte.com/The Crown.htm. The Cromotor is a 5000 watt motor. http://greyborgusa.com/product/the-cromotor/
There is no dual mode. Electric motors can pull more power at start up under load, so the peak number is what they will hit in a near stall condition when they first get moving. top power at full speed will be much less due to the way electric motors work.

This is an international forum, so It would help us to know what country you're in. In most first world countries, the cops are going to see any bike being rode in the way you describe as an unlicensed, unregistered, uninsured motor vehicle. In many states in the U.S., a 3 strike moving violation can lead to an arrest. If you aren't qualified to have a driver's license, then they are even less likely to just let you go.