Wanting guidance for my first ebike build

[DrPylorus]

So, I've been drooling over the prospect of my first bike but I never seem to be able to get all the information I need in one spot! I appreciate everyone's posts but I still can only learn so much ;-P On to my inevitable questions!

So, I want essentially a plug and play battery that is capable of 72V and 40A and 10ah. These packs seem the most cost-efficient (and the only reason I "know" that is because of a forum member mentioning them).

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html

So, if I understand correctly, I would need to purchase 10 of these. So, have to sets of 5 in series and then connect those two packs in parallel? I'm still looking for a full video tutorial as I'm a much better visual learner. I only have a few miles to travel each day (I think about 6-10 miles tops with very few hills) and I'm quite busy so being able to easily and safely charge them is a must. I know there has been some debate as to their safety but I have been reading conflicting evidence to this (but some of the info was quite dated so...an update would be nice ). I think that they are allowed to be charged in series but as to what charger I need to use...that's what I need help with the most I suppose. Materials needed for construction of my proposed battery and specific charging instructions for this. I have consulted the Wiki's charging page but I'm still quite lost as to what I should buy for this build. I'm sorry!

This is essentially the bike I want to build: it's the 2520 watt variant that uses a Crystalyte HT3525 hub motor http://www.electricbike.com/12-kit-power-levels-360w-to-8000w/

I originally wanted the LightningRod kit but I just ran short on cash and my skills aren't up to snuff. One day! The reason I went with the Crystalyte HT3525 is because acceleration is important to me. I live in Atlanta and I'll need to scoot across busy intersections VERY rapidly to avoid getting run over. I also love wheelies. Yeah. Top speed isn't much of a factor, 30mph (which is about what this build would do?) is more than enough for me.

I haven't researched controllers yet. I know that I need to purchase one that allows for 72V and limits amperage to 40 but other than that I'm not sure. I suppose I would probably like to add a Cycle Analyst into the mix so I would need one of those I suppose. Suggestions welcome.

Long story --> Short story

*Is it possible to construct a 72V battery out of the above components and, with the correct charger, not have to babysit them or spend a lot of time taking them apart everyday?
*Is there a current step-by-step video tutorial on constructing this battery with the most cost-efficient/safest-charging/time-efficient method available?

I'm sorry I'm a n00b and need some hand holding to get through this first build. I'll learn better as I get my hands on it! Thank you for your time

 

[wesnewell]

If you want a plug and play solution using 20s rc lipo, then the only solution is to use a bms. You want a bms capable of 20s and make sure it's for lico, not lifepo4.

 

[dogman dan]

Not really. Even with a bms, you still want to charge and store that stuff in a place you would build a campfire.

Plug and play, NOPE. Especially not at 72v, since there are no 20s RC chargers I've heard of. But you are on the right track for huge wattage from a tiny 10 ah pack.

A 20s bms should be possible, but you will have to learn a bit to hook it up. There are guys here like Dnmun, who can help you do that. I'm not sure if he's made vids, but he has some good stills in his threads.

 

[Eskimo]

Lipos are safe like a hand granade or loaded shotgun.
It"s depends of your actions. They don"t forgive you anything.
If something happens, it almost always the user who has screwed up.
If you accept this, they are great.
You need patience and concentration when you use them.
They need to be balanced once in a while, which takes time.
They are not really plug&play, they are a hobby. If you have three kids, with lipos you have four.
Other chemistries are more plug&play&forget. Heavier and more expensive though.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Welcome to the forum.

*Is it possible to .... not have to babysit them....?

No.

A BMS is a great idea with Lipo, but it doesn't render them safe. You will still need to babysit them while charging them, and depending on your budget, need to pull the pack apart for charging.
By the time you buy all the charging and monitoring equipment needed to run lipo, their cost is close to that of LiFePO4, and considering their shorter life cycle, their cost is actually much higher.

As for your motor, the HT3525 is great at higher voltages, and is a great motor for off road and very hilly terrain. It may or may not be the right motor for you, however. If you're riding in the city, there are other motors that may be better.

You want a bike that can pull a wheelies on its own, then you're likely going to need to build something with more than ~5000watts power. that's not something you can achieve with much success from stock parts. you will have to learn how to modify existing motors and controllers and bike frames to handle that level of power.


We can help you best if we know what your needs are. Start with describing what you have to have. ( I.E. a commuter bike that can go 20mph for 20 miles in flat terrain carrying your weight plus 60lbs of cargo.)
Then once we have established a base line bike that meets those needs, it's much easier to advise on ways to make it also meet your wants. (I.E. same range at 30mph, or ability to ride a wheelie the whole way, or higher than average acceleration, etc, etc, etc..)

 

[DrPylorus]

Thank you for the replies!

I'm sorry for my absence, I'm doing battle with midterms at the moment. So, I've decided that lipos are out of the question for my current predicament. I currently live in an apartment and, seeing I can't give them the attention they deserve, will try for a safer chemistry. LiFeO4 seems the most plausible recommendation from what I've gleaned so far. I would like to buy from a store in the continental US (for shipping and the sort) and was wondering if anybody had any experience with http://www.ebikedeal.com/lifepo4.htm

They have almost everything I have mentioned previously: HT3525 and Headway LiFePO4 batteries.
They also have the half twist throttle, a wiring harness with a key for easy on/off, and various other accessories.

To answer some of Drunkskunk's excellent questions (and what may also help with diagnosing correct setups):

I've got a 21 Speed Genesis V2100: http://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Genesis-V2100-Mountain-Bike-Dual-Suspension-Men-s-Bike/22899847
I weigh 210lbs @ 6'3"
I will be traveling <8 miles round trip 5 days a week
I will not likely ever need to travel more than 15 miles round trip
I would like to maintain 20 mph with multiple stop/go situations (for the 6 intersections I must cross)
Acceleration is most important. I wouldn't mind having a top speed of ~30mph for longer treks when I must visit stores outside of my normal travels
Wheelies are for fun ;-P Definitely not a must! I just want to make sure I have enough to dart out of danger if the need arises
The most cargo I will carry will top out at approximately 60 pounds with my average cargo weighing in at 20 pounds
If there is any other info I neglected to answer please let me know

So, the bike = 45 pounds, I weigh = 210 pounds, and the cargo = 20 pounds for a total of 275 pounds (125kg).

These Headway batteries seem to have the capability of 40amps but is there a better deal on a LiFeO4 pack in the US that would be a better fit for my application at a reasonable cost? Maybe even lighter?

I agree with you Mr. Skunk on coming out ahead even after the initial investment so thank you for the suggestion.
I also want to thank wesnewell, dogman, and Eskimo for giving me guidance. I've read many of your posts in other threads and have learned much from your previous discussions!

 

[dogman dan]

A headway pack of 15 ah cells should do for your needs. If you discharge them at no more than 3c, they should last ok. 15 amps x 3 is 45. So you can get away with a 40 amps controller. 30 amps would do for your needs though, and be easier on the battery.

The downside is that a 15 ah headway pack is not even close to compact and light. No way it's fitting in your triangle. Get it made in two sections. Maybe mount half on the handlebars, half on the back.

The HT motor a good choice, slower, but it will leave a stop light faster for that first 30 feet. That's nice IMO. Part of why I'm the fanboy for slower wind motors here.

 

[DrPylorus]

So, the headway seem huge which is something I don't like. So, I went on a quest to find a new battery that is located within the US that has a BMS, chargers, the whole 9 yards. And this is what I've come up with so far:
LiFePO4
http://www.electricrider.com/lifepo4-batteries-72-volt-s/1829.htm
LiMn
http://www.electricrider.com/Lightweight-Lithium-Manganese-72V-10AH-Battery-p/lim7210-22.htm

Does anybody have any experience with this dealer? The prices are quite high but when I considered that the BMS and the chargers were included...I thought it was a decent value.

They also sell the HT3525 but they label it as a "Phoenix II" motor and mark up the price ~$100+ dollars. Is this different than any other HT3525?

As far as a kit is concerned, would this be a decent kit?
http://www.electricrider.com/Phoenix-Electric-Bike-Conversion-Kit-p/x2-km.htm
$930 gets me:

1 of APM for Crystalyte Electric Bike Kits ($149.99 value!)
1 of Lacing ($35.00 value!)
1 of Controller for Sensored or Sensorless Motors ($119.99 value!)
1 of Phoenix II Motor ($409.99 value!)
1 of Rim ($26.99 value!)
1 of Stainless Steel Spoke Set ($19.99 value!)
1 of Throttle ($29.99 value!)
1 of Crystalyte Brake Inhibit (pair) ($29.99 value!)
1 of Spokewrench with multiple size options including 12g ($4.99 value!)
9 of Zip Ties ($1.71 value!)

The controller is 72V-40A (I think...it's like 8" long)
HT3525 is in a wheel already


For a n00b, it seems like an acceptable deal and I could get everything from the same manufacturer with everything going together quite well (I would assume.) Are there any other retailers that you pros would suggest in the US?

Is the "Phoenix II" upgraded in anyway to a normal HT3525 that would justify the extra cost?

Are these batteries a good price for what all they come with as well as the convenience of only being 2 days away as far as shipping is concerned?

Thanks again for all your help. I'm locking down on my proposed build!

 

[Drunkskunk]

Well, that's not a bad kit. there is a lot of hype in their description. I'm surprised they don't include
Screws! ($19.95 value)!
Wires! ( $23.17 value!)
The wheels come laced with spokes into a rim from Crystalyte, unless they specifically request a bare motor.

Another option for that motor is Ebikes.ca Sadly, Justin is showing out of stock on them right now. Their kit includes the Cycle Analyst, which is a much better computer than the Clyte stock unit that the other company offers. Ebikes.ca is a much better company to deal with, with better customer support. It may be worth your time to call or email them and see if they will have them back in stock soon.

 

[fellow]

Why are those dangerous RC Li-Pos so popular here at endless? There are much safer hybrid cells like Panasonic NCR18650PF, latest Sony 18650's etc. NCR18650PF is 2.9Ah, 45 grams, PTC, safety ceramic heat layer, <85'C at short etc. Are those "handgranade-mininuke-thermite" RC Li-Pos everyone is using even worth considering? If I'm not mistaken, they are heavier compared to safe 18650 cells with same capacity?

 

[Drunkskunk]

Because we are insane.

Nothing available has as much power in as small and light of a format as Lithium Cobalt pouch cells.
Yes, they are explosive. Yes, they are dangerous. Yes, they can burn our houses down without any warning.
But the reward is worth it for those who want performance.

For normal people and normal use even up to some performance use, LiFePO4 makes more sense. But not when you want to be the first over XX.x mph, or the first up the mountain, or the first across the finish line. High performance has risks.

 

[z50king]

I have been using lipo packs for years in different hobbies and have never had a problem with my batteries. I have seen other people not handle them properly and they go poof. It's not a lot of fire, just a short flame that turns to mountains of smelly smoke

There is no reason to fear them if you take care of them. I have 4 6s packs charging in my goped in the garage right now. I'm not worried

 

[Punx0r]

I believe the OP has already decided to forsake RC lipo.

There are also 26650 lifepo4 cells from A123. You may want to search the forum for details of people using those. No suppliers within U.S. boarders as far as I know.

Enerdel has been getting mentioned lately. They are built in the U.S. AFAIK.

 

[DrPylorus]

http://www.batterysupports.com/sams...1865025r-2500mah-36v-liion-battery-p-337.html

I read on electricbike.com that these were the new hottness! I, however, am in a time crunch. My wife and I only have one vehicle and she'll be out of town for a while in a couple weeks and there lie the problem! So, counting on shipments arriving from overseas might not be in me best interest ;-P I probably should have mentioned that one earlier. Anywho!

Mr. Drunkskunk, I appreciate your suggestion of Ebikes.ca and I shall contact them soon to inquire about their shipping times and their restock hopefully!
I appreciate all the other suggestions as well. I did look into Enerdel Mr. Punx0r and those cells do look sweet! I've decided to stray away from building my own pack I'm afraid. Between getting my doctorate and living in an apartment complex, I've decided to go the safest route possible (from what I've gleaned over the different debates on here) and attempt to procure a safe battery chemistry (such as LiFePO4/LiMn(I think this is safe ;-P)) with a BMS and charger to match. I think this would be in the best interest for me and the other fellows in my building!

So, at this point, I suppose what I need the most help with is finding a retailer(s) in the US/Canada that could provide me the necessary materials to build the bike specified above (HT3525/72V 10-15Ah battery/72V-30/40A controller/CA) at a competitive price. You guys have been great so far and I appreciate all the input.

As of now, the US/Canada retailers that I have found are:
http://www.electricrider.com/Phoenix-Electric-Bike-Conversion-Kit-p/x2-km.htm - They have both the batteries and the hub but at a slightly elevated price it seems
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion-kits/direct-drive/crystalyte-rear-hs-kit-basic-throttle.html - These guys seem to be out of stock temporarily (skunk found)
http://www.ebikedeal.com/crystalyte.htm - These guys don't seem to have a complete kit available but I'm sure they wouldn't mind helping get everything required. They do have a significantly lower price on the hub motor comparatively speaking to electricrider.

After I get the input from you intelligent and well-versed individuals my credit card shall catch fire (instead of those lipos) and I shall show off the build that you all helped create!

 

[Eskimo]

Why are those dangerous RC Li-Pos so popular here at endless? There are much safer hybrid cells like Panasonic NCR18650PF, latest Sony 18650's etc. NCR18650PF is 2.9Ah, 45 grams, PTC, safety ceramic heat layer, <85'C at short etc. Are those "handgranade-mininuke-thermite" RC Li-Pos everyone is using even worth considering? If I'm not mistaken, they are heavier compared to safe 18650 cells with same capacity?

Because i have used them nine years now without a single problem, not counting my own screw ups which have caused two shorts. First in giant RC-planes, where they are the only option if you do not want to use gas, then in E-bikes.
Using them in RC-plane is not any more dangerous than using them in E-bike in theory. Both run 48V, high capacity. They are used in RC planes a lot globally, RC-cars etc. They are a standard.
They are way more popular in RC-world than in Endless Sphere.
They just don"t fit well in this modern consumeristic thinking, where a product should be totally harm-free, and manufacturer responsible of everything.
With lipos it"s usually you who has screwed up if things caught fire. It"s a principle that is not for everyone.
They are a hobby, demanging your respect, not a totally harmless consumer product.
Then they are the cheapest option, and most powerful, highest discharge option as well of course, and thirdly, most lightest option.
They are just not for AD/HD-type persons, who mess around doing ten things at once. Many people who use them have long RC-background, like me, so the choice was natural.
Even the cell count of the batteries i use in E-bike was decided on basis how well they work with my plane. I can use the same batteries on both.

 

[DrPylorus]

So, I'm thinking Electricrider.com is likely my best choice...and I am quite startled at the cost! I suppose I got into my head the relative cost of lipos and and had a much lower cost in mind.

So, I'm going to have to reach deep into me pockets...which aren't that deep to begin with. And then the batteries:

72V 16.5AH LiFePO4 - the higher amp hour seems required to produce the amperage to sustain ~32 amps constant? I couldn't find much information like "constant/peak/all that stuff"
*1500-2000 cycles, 25lbs, Use for e-bikes up to 2300 watts*
2 of VeriBest 36V 4A Lithium Battery Charger ($159.98 value!)
1 of Lithium Battery Y Adaptor for Series ($29.99 value!)
2 of LiFePO4 36V 50A Battery Management System ($159.98 value!)
120 of Lithium Iron Phosphate Cell - 3.2V 3300mAh LiFePO4 ($790.80 value!)
-$1,160.00

Then we've got the LiMn
72V 15AH Lithium Manganese - just using the 15AH for comparison, the 10AH is
*600-800 cycles, 15 pounds, use for e-bikes up to 3000 watts*
2 of VeriBest 36V 4A Lithium Battery Charger ($159.98 value!)
1 of Lithium Battery Y Adaptor for Series ($29.99 value!)
2 of LiMnCO2 36V 50A Battery Management System 10S ($159.98 value!)
140 of Lithium Cell - 3.7V 2200mAh LiMn ($908.60 value!)
-$1,100

The 10AH are $900 for the LiMn but says up to 2000 watts

So, the HT3525 kit + the 72V15AH LiFePO4 batteries + shipping would run me a total of $2,171.41

If anybody could find a place cheaper and in the US/Canada, feel free to give me a holler! If not, I might have me a nice little hotrod sometime next week from electricriders.com ;-P

If anybody has any advice on other US/Canada carriers then gimme a holler!

 

[DrPylorus]

Why are those dangerous RC Li-Pos so popular here at endless? There are much safer hybrid cells like Panasonic NCR18650PF, latest Sony 18650's etc. NCR18650PF is 2.9Ah, 45 grams, PTC, safety ceramic heat layer, <85'C at short etc. Are those "handgranade-mininuke-thermite" RC Li-Pos everyone is using even worth considering? If I'm not mistaken, they are heavier compared to safe 18650 cells with same capacity?

Because i have used them nine years now without a single problem, not counting my own screw ups which have caused two shorts. First in giant RC-planes, where they are the only option if you do not want to use gas, then in E-bikes.
Using them in RC-plane is not any more dangerous than using them in E-bike in theory. Both run 48V, high capacity. They are used in RC planes a lot globally, RC-cars etc. They are a standard.
They are way more popular in RC-world than in Endless Sphere.
They just don"t fit well in this modern consumeristic thinking, where a product should be totally harm-free, and manufacturer responsible of everything.
With lipos it"s usually you who has screwed up if things caught fire. It"s a principle that is not for everyone.
They are a hobby, demanging your respect, not a totally harmless consumer product.
Then they are the cheapest option, and most powerful, highest discharge option as well of course, and thirdly, most lightest option.
They are just not for AD/HD-type persons, who mess around doing ten things at once. Many people who use them have long RC-background, like me, so the choice was natural.
Even the cell count of the batteries i use in E-bike was decided on basis how well they work with my plane. I can use the same batteries on both.

Well put kind sir!

Also, to all, sorry for the huge photo...it's freaking enormous.

 

[z50king]

You can buy several packs of lipo cells that will last you 2000 cycles for less than the price of both of those systems. And then you won't need to worry about discharge rates.

Running the discharge rate near the maximum will greatly bring down the life of the batteries

 

[Drunkskunk]

You can buy several packs of lipo cells that will last you 2000 cycles for less than the price of both of those systems.

That is simply untrue. Lipo dont last that long. 300-500 cycles is about what most people get.

 

[wesnewell]

I've got 2 years and almost 8000 miles on my 24s2p pack that cost $275 and I expect it to last at least another year or two. I don't keep track of cycles, but I expect age to be more of a killer than cycles when I only pull 2C max from a 20C pack rated for 200A