waste of time. don't bother.

[Anonymous]

waste

 

[amberwolf]

Thx,how do you avoid arc'ing then?

My andersons (visible in the pic of the bike) take any arcing during connect (shoudln't be any during disconnect). Then I have a circuit breaker on battery negative to disconnect the whole pack from everything. if I need to, even if the run/stop switch and the keyswitch won't turn it off for some reason. It's on the other side of the bike, right near the top of that top battery.

 

[jfbrink]

Ned, et al.

I have the same Curtis 1510 type controller (1510A-5201, 1510A-5202, 1510A-5251, 1510A-5250, 1510-5251, 1510-5201, 1510-5202, 1510-5250 ) and sepex motor (my motor is ADC EJ4-4001; the GE motors from the Club Car Precedent IQ should also work). It took me quite a while to find a sufficient wiring diagram online. Once found, I took some time to create a new diagram that eliminates all the unnecessary, golf-cart-specific elements. The result is a fairly simple harness that allows this motor and controller to be used in anything.

A JPG of the diagram:

A PDF of the diagram:
http://www.too-many-parts.com/misc/public_electrical_diagram_1510_simple.pdf

This thread: http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/electric-golf-carts/15316-programming-curtis-controller.html has been very helpful. I successfully got "into" my 1510A and read and modified its settings, to the limited degree that Curtis allows.

Jesse.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi
Thank you for the support with the etekrocketcycle, to you wonderful people who supported me with my project, I salute and thank you!

Just to let you know about proceedings..today was a sunny day so I took the bike out on a full spin (by connecting the batteries onto the motor DIRECTLY)...it actually went well DESPITE the torque for the first few hundred meters, there was a lot of skidding tyre and lots of gravel, the speedometer clocked it at 32.4mph before I pulled the switch off, in fact it went for a good long while on full 36v!

I did not want to wreck my project so I had used the 'standard' bike chain, thumbs up to everyone who mentioned it snapping after a little bit..yes..it snapped there was SO MUCH TORQUE coming out of that motor that it was pretty much useless to use the same chain and fix it.(bike's sat in my garage without a chain right now waiting for something to happen to it).

Now instead of changing the sprocket setup and completely remodelling the bike (sensible), I have decided to give it one last try with a much stronger chain that I have found...it's a CLASS A KMC HX 610 chain capable of pulling 980kg under stress. Pretty high tensile stuff.

I'm about to wire everything up and need a thumbs up from you on a couple of things:

where do I wire the keyswitch to? (there are three tabs. which tab do I wire this up to? the one next to B- or the one farthest below B- ? )

I have ditched the contactor, it was too complicated and I'm much happier using an anderson switch, where do I place the 500ohm 10watt precharge resistor?

I'm now using 3 batteries instead of four (too much power with four). I have moved batteries above the sprocket and chain setup, this is a much better move than building a cumbersome 'protector' from the chain!

 

[Anonymous]

another point I was going to mention was this: The ammount of amps had nearly fried a LUG. I took all of the advice (and then some) from a great poster (amberwolf) thanks man you've been a really big help.

The bicycle chain that I used was inadequate to perform for more than a few hundred meters, however when it did perform, it pulled like a v6 biturbo. I have never been on something so small and yet so quick! it was exciting! fun! intolerably fun! it was buckets of fun! and I'm grinning from ear to ear about it! because it was absolutely fantastic! i love it!

there is something about owning an etek, and then, mating it to a bicycle that just feels like you're the big v8 block 440 ci on the block, the power is unbelievable, the torque can move a small suzuki at 20mph, let alone a bicycle, it's a lot of fun..I've had electric bicycles before, and they were crappy, they performed okay, but not enough, and were so expensive! but this, is just plain old fun, i think it will work, and I think it will work beautifully if I don't push it to it's limits with acceleration. I think from a stop I could give it a little bit to make it move....there's no need to pull on the throttle all the way... but from a moving point accelerating with this is a lot less stressful on the chain....

please share your thoughts... I'd appreciate some help with the wiring of this, I've gone so far now, it's been six months of constant perusing, building :wink: any helpful advice is seriously needed at this very last stage of completion!
much thanks
wishing everyone the best



http://cargocycling.org/wpcontent/uploads/2009/09/furnituretrike.jpg

 

[diver]

I run two of those motors on a trike. i use an altrax programmable controller. I have not read the whole thread but i know if i did not have a way to limit amps and throttle response the motors will pull so many amps till something burns.lol I run a max of 225 amps to each motor and set so the amps come in progressively if i full throttle at a stop. If not for this setting the trike would wheelie from stop sign to stop sign lol I don't know if you curtis is that programmable but once your bike is setup with proper bats and all it will fly lol

 

[amberwolf]

where do I wire the keyswitch to? (there are three tabs. which tab do I wire this up to? the one next to B- or the one farthest below B- ? )

Note the numbers molded into your controller:

Then refer to the post I made earlier in the thread on how to do it. Until you wire it with at least something connecting as described, even if not a switch but just a straight wire, the controller won't even work at all. So if you have already used it, you've already *had* it wired up right.

 

[Anonymous]

where do I wire the keyswitch to? (there are three tabs. which tab do I wire this up to? the one next to B- or the one farthest below B- ? )

Note the numbers molded into your controller:

Then refer to the post I made earlier in the thread on how to do it. Until you wire it with at least something connecting as described, even if not a switch but just a straight wire, the controller won't even work at all. So if you have already used it, you've already *had* it wired up right.

Thanks amberwolf, I've copied what you said verbatim, but, if you could possibly refer to 1,2,3, (which one connects where) then that would be very helpful, as currently I only have a vague idea of 'center' tab if you see my point. I'm terrified of burning this controller...the shipping costs were phenomenal!
Thanks again, If I ever see you in the UK I'm buying you a full meal and beer!

 

[Anonymous]

waste

 

[amberwolf]

Thanks amberwolf, I've copied what you said verbatim, but, if you could possibly refer to 1,2,3, (which one connects where) then that would be very helpful, as currently I only have a vague idea of 'center' tab if you see my point.

Well, I did list which ones go where by number :

--The three little tabs:
1--keyswitch, one side to here and one side to B+
2--"top" side wire from throttle pot.
3--center wire from throttle pot.

I don't recall talking about a "center tab" anywhere, though.
The numbers match the ones molded into the plastic, just like the letter references do (B+ etc.).

For the precharge resistor, if you don't have a contactor or power switch that breaks the connection from battery to controller, you don't use one permanently mounted anywhere, as it is only there to slowly charge up the caps on the controller when power is first applied to it from the battery.

So if you want to use a precharge resistor with your battery anderson connector, you need to add a parallel wire on either + or - of that connector, with the resistor inline with it. That means having one more anderson plug (can be a really small one) that runs from battery + to the resistor to one anderson plug. Then it's mating plug runs to the + power input on the controller, in parallel with the actual battery + power input, and to the same lug on the controller.

Then you plug in the precharge anderson, wait however long you've got it setup for (usually 30 to 60 seconds), then plug in the main battery andersons (leaving the precharge anderson still connected).

It's less complicated to use the contactor, as far as the daily ease-of-use is concerned, even though it's a little more complicated for wiring it up in the first place.

Thanks again, If I ever see you in the UK I'm buying you a full meal and beer!

Have to swap the beer for Dr. Pepper, though. Unlikely I'll ever get to travel, but it's a nice thought.

 

[Anonymous]

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[amberwolf]

My curtis 1204 series controller seems to have several different manuals, they are complicated. Is your controller a 1204 series?

Each 1204 is a specific model. As I said in my first post attempting to help you, mine is a 1204. Specifically, it is the 1204-410, which is different from yours. I don't know what yours is, but all the manuals are on the Curtis site if you did not get a paper copy with it (I didn't). If they're not there for any reason you can ask Curtis for the specific one for yours. Some manuals cover multiple models because they are all the same for their wiring and use.

If you could possibly start with Magura. The only thing that it shows , is when I use the brown cable, and blue cable, that's when twisting it shows a reading. (the multimeter 5k).
I know that according to the magura website, Wiring: blue - throttle high, brown - wiper, black - throttle low.

You'll have to follow what I already said:

--B- is pack negative.<snip> Throttle pot also has it's "bottom" side wired here.
<snip>
2--"top" side wire from throttle pot.
3--center wire from throttle pot.

You'll have to use a meter to tell which wire is which on the throttle, unless you already have a diagram that tells you which color is which.

Apparently you do have the throttle wire color diagram, so follow that for which is which. If you're not sure, use the meter.

Where do I wire the cables of the batteries? positive goes to B+ I assume? negative goes to B - ?

Not be mean, but I already said it as clearly as possible.

--B+ is pack positive. Motor also has one side wired here. Keyswitch also has one side wired here.
--B- is pack negative. Mine has a breaker between the actual batteries and the controller. Yours will have the contactor (and maybe a breaker too, or a fuse, would be a good idea). Throttle pot also has it's "bottom" side wired here.

so essentially a controller regulates motor speed by sending out fast electric signals USING THE NEGATIVE , not the positive, is this right? that's to prevent arcing?

No, it has nothing to do with arcing. As for the positive vs negative, that depends on the controller design and type; it could be either one or even neither. Yours (and mine) happen do to it by modulating the negative.

Fourthly: If I have a standard switch (not an anderson switch), will I be able to use 'Kettle leads' if I were to connect the precharge resistor first? will the precharge resistor stop ALL arc'ing?

All the precharge resistor does is prevent arcing across a contactor, power switch, charging leads, or battery plug in leads, depending on which one you use it for. The way it does it is by providing a low-current path to connect whatever it is you are connecting, before you actually make the full connection.

I don't know what "Kettle leads" are. But if you have only a standard switch to disconnect your battery from controller, it must be a very heavy duty one to handle the current you will pull thru it, and must be rated for DC amps at or above what you will pull thru it, at or above the voltage you will put across it. If it is not, eventually the contacts and/or switch body will be damaged or destroyed. If you don't have a heavy-duty rated switch, you really need to use that contactor (assuming you already have the contactor, otherwise you need to get the proper switch).

To use a precharge resistor with a switch, you also need a second switch, which can be much smaller capacity than the first. It has to be wired in series with the resistor, and the pair of them must be wired in parallel with the main switch. If you're not sure what series or parallel mean, you might want to check them out on wikipedia.

You turn on the precharge switch first, wait 30 seconds to a minute (whatever your resistor has been calculated for), then turn on the main switch. It does not matter if you leave the precharge switch on or not at this point; just turn it off when you turn off the main switch so the controller doesn't drain your battery.

If you don't care about the drain on the battery, because you'll be charging it whenever you're not using it, then you can skip the second small switch and just put the precharge resistor in parallel with the main switch so that it is always connected.

If this isn't enough help, or clear enough, you really ought to either take the bike to someone that has done this before, or contact Curtis support and see if they can help.

 

[Anonymous]

waste

 

[Anonymous]

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[amberwolf]

I'VE DONE IT!
IT WORKS! I can now control the motor and it works terrifically!

YAY!

the only problem is, I think the controller is programmed for a 'low' setting as I am getting a 'judder' when i'm 'giving' it some....this leads me to think that the batteries are crap...but then with the killacycle the guy uses the same batteries...so what have i missed?

No, the killacycle uses A123 batteries (a LOT of them), not lead-acid. SLA the size of yours can't likely put out the full current that motor can draw without serious voltage sag.

So what is probably happening is the heavy current draw pulls the battery voltage down below the controller's LVC, then the controller "turns off" to protect itself and the batteries. As soon as it does, the batteries' voltage starts to go back up to normal, which lets the controller "turn on". As soon as that happens, it pulls so much current that it pulls voltage down again, and the cycle rapidly repeats, causing "judder".

Do you have any kind of wattmeter on there, like a CycleAnalyst, WattsUp, etc? If so, it'll tell you what the average Amps and peak Amps are, which you can then find out from UltraMax how much that will cause your SLAs to sag, according to their spec sheets.

It is *also* possible that it is simply a bad connection, causing high resistance (and voltage drop) at any point in the battery or controller or motor wiring, for the power wires. Did you ever redo the wiring with proper crimped or soldered-on connectors? What you had on in the pics I've seen so far looks like there would be potential for this kind of problem.


AFAIK the 1204 series does not have any way to limit current within itself, and is capable of draining your batteries in a couple of minutes without doing much to the controller, if you have enough of a load on it. Even my -410 can handle 225A for a few minutes, which would probably melt my 17Ah and 20Ah SLAs into little puddles. Even my 31Ah SLAs couldn't handle that for very long, I expect.



With a CycleAnalyst, you can probably use it's current-limiting feature, by essentially having it cut back throttle automatically as current spikes above the limit. But a better solution if you want full bike-destroying power out of that motor is to use some type of high-C-rate lithium chemistry battery pack that can put out the peak currents that motor is capable of drawing, without much voltage sag. The simplest-to-assemble ones I know of are the Cell-Man pouch cells, out of the ones capable of doing this.

Regular A123 cylindricals could do it too, if you parallel enough of them, but for easy assembly you'd either have to keep them in their pack-state (even if you bypass or remove the BMS).

Optionally, you can use the HobbyCity LiPo packs AussieJester and others are using, and just parallel/series enough of them to get the current, voltage, and range you want. These you'd really want to have a BMS or at least some type of LVC cell monitors on, though, especially with such a big load on them.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[liveforphysics]

Those aren't going to do jack squat for you.

Those are 4x 20Ah TS cells in a plastic case.

If you want to run your device without it cutting out from low-voltage input to the controller, you're going to need real batteries.
Like Amberwolf all ready said, A123 or LiPo are the only affordable options out there for something light enough to work on a bicycle, yet able to deliver the current needed to run an E-tek properly.

 

[Anonymous]

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[amberwolf]

Do you think if I upgraded to POWER-SONIC 18ah batteries I'd get a MUCH better amp draw than these ULTRAMAX's? I'm thinking that could be my next upgrade?

You would need to compare the data sheets for the two brands, and see what they are rated at for higher current ratings. I know PowerSonic has this data in their spec sheets, you'll need to check with Ultramax to see if they do. If not, you can at least compare the PS data sheet with your actual experience of the UM.

Do you know of any 'zip-tie' like instrument, (nothing short of a belt) that I can loosen up and 'zip-tie' back up when I want to change the batteries round (when they're dead)..

Stainless Steel Hose Clamps. I use them to hold my SLA in CrazyBike2's frame. If you can't find ones long enough, use multiples in series. Just be sure to keep them clear of the battery terminals.

I think I know what's happening. I have not soldered the lugs onto the cables, and have left the 'standard' 250amp cables in place, leading the whole setup to probably have some unusual 'wiring' in it's midst. I should probably take the wiring up to 300amp wire eventually. it's also probably necessary to solder those lugs on. I've been shoving aluminium foil into the lugs to make sure I have a good connection but I highly doubt that that is a good way of crimping (any thoughts on soldering vs aluminium foil?)

I don't think bigger wire is needed, from what I see it's already large enough (10g? 12G?). Just ensuring you have a really good crimp (and solder if necessary). Remember, if the crimp isn't good as a mechanical connection, the solder won't work very long, as vibration will crack it. The solder is more to make a fill to prevent contamination/oxidation, and perhaps increase electrical conductivity a tiny bit, than it is to make the connection in the first place. The solder is significantly higher resistance than the wire-to-lug resistance if crimped solidly.

Aluminum foil is probably not helping much, and might be exacerbating the problem. If you have a big enough gap to stick *anything* between the wire and the lug you have a fairly big connection problem.

You need to use lugs sized for the wire you put in it, or strip extra insulation off the end of the wire, and double-over the end of the wire to fill the lug, and then solidly crimp it as tightly as you can. Only then would you solder it.

I do not have a cycle-analyst, it is an expensive piece of kit ....

A CA isn't required, depending on the currents you expect to be drawing. Under 130A (burst) and probably 80A continuous, you can use one of the cheaper alternatives like the WU, or even the WU ripoff Turnigy Watt Meter. Both of those will do the job of helping you figure out the power you're using, and since you have a brushed motor you can even directly measure either battery *or* motor current. Well, the motor current could be so high it could melt the shunt, with the one you're using. But with the CA and an external shunt made for high currents, you could measure however high a current you like.

Even without any of these watt meters, if you use a known resistance shunt (for instance, if you know the exact resistance of one of your power leads), you can keep your voltmeter across that, and watch for the maximum and average voltages, in the lower (mV) ranges of the meter. Then you can use Ohm's law to determine what the current thru the shunt was for those voltages.

 

[Anonymous]

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[liveforphysics]

Those aren't going to do jack squat for you.

Those are 4x 20Ah TS cells in a plastic case.

If you want to run your device without it cutting out from low-voltage input to the controller, you're going to need real batteries.
Like Amberwolf all ready said, A123 or LiPo are the only affordable options out there for something light enough to work on a bicycle, yet able to deliver the current needed to run an E-tek properly.

Hi there

That's a downer, it's a shame the 171GBP lifepo4's in a plastic case won't work. A123 it is then.

Is there anything that can help me build this battery pack? I've found 50pcs for 200 dollars... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Lifepo4-A123-18650-1000-1100mah-battery-Cell-50-Pcs_W0QQitemZ320514055633QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4aa0205dd1

A bike like this needs at minimum 500watt-hours of battery energy to be good for anything, and more like at least 1kw-hr to work properly. Those are the most tiny cells A123 makes in that auction. At 3.5w/hrs, 50 of them get's you about 1/4 of the pack you need, and it's extremely expensive $/wh-hr. Something like the cell_man a123 cell's would be about 50% less expensive $/watt-hour, and it would require about 1/10th the number of connections to build the pack.

 

[Anonymous]

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[amberwolf]

I think what is really odd is...it juddered the very first time I used it?

That's not odd at all. The current requirements would be no different with or without the controller--in fact, without it the surge currents would be even higher, and the juddering potentially even worse.

ie, I had NEVER charged these batteries, they came stock out of the factory plant and I plugged them straight in without charging them or anything..... I'm fairly peed off with ULTRAMAX's and hate them accordingly.

If you hadn't even charged them yet, I would definitely expect you to have trouble getting enough power out of them. No battery can be expected to come with a totally full charge on it. It's up to the end-user to provide the full charge.

I suspect my next upgrade will involve POWER-SONIC batteries once these batteries give up the ghost...as the LIFEPO-4's are way out of my budget.....

PS are probably better than UM, based on the specs you list. But to be realistic, you'd have to compare specs at the discharge rates you are actually using. To find that out, you still need to measure what current you are using, average and max. Until you know that, it's hard to compare.

Also, until you have an idea what currents you're pulling, it's hard to determine what pack you will need to actually get the full potential of the system. You'd have to assume that the pack will have to put out the max that the controller can handle (which is probably at least a couple hundred amps, it should say on it's label on the other end from the connectors what the peak current ability is, and there's more info on sustainable currents in the manual.