Avitt
100 W
DAND214 said:
50V nominal, charged to ~58V. Here's the video: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=58335#p965331
Wave Ebike another Indiegogo backed Alibaba quality bike
- Thread starter kimboviper
- Start date
50V nominal, charged to ~58V. Here's the video: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=58335#p965331
LockH
1 PW
Suspect "Alibaba quality" one of those oxymorons like "common sense".
kmadd22
100 µW
I have been watching these crowdfunded bikes for some time, not to purchase, but out of professional curiosity as I would like to also someday bring a mass-market ebike to America.
What amazes me about the Wave bike in particular is how many red flags there are in this campaign, just similarities to the Storm bike are a pretty compelling reason to think twice.
First the similarities to the Storm/Sonders fiasco:
Suspicious Economics: It took about three minutes for the community to start dissecting the Sondors and it was clear that the sum of the parts were significantly greater than the whole. Maybe because the Wave does not have flashy tires or a custom battery box, but the same inconsistencies are prevalent; a battery that costs $350 wholesale ($500 delivered, if they really are A-rated Samsung cells) makes this either a bargain or suspicious from the get go.
Just an Upgraded Ali-Baba Bike: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/beach-cruiser-e-bike-electric-bike_1784463230.html
= $420-450 USD @ 350w 36v 10Ah, 100+ units.
= $550 USD @ 750w 48v 12Ah
Sure the above bike has specs that are lower than the Wave's, but is at least a good starting point to dissect the price of $420 in quantities >100. If you look at characteristic bends in the downtube and seat stays, you can see that the frame is the same and the components look identical as well. With that considered, the Wave is either an upgraded version of the Alibaba Cruiser as it pushes specs up 12 volts, 500 watts, and 2Ah, which is an impressive feat with the claimed weights not changing at all, or I dare speculate that they are the same bike (with the Wave's obviously photoshopped logo) and Wave is fabricating it's performance claims as in crowdfunding they are not required to or especially expected to deliver them.
I am willing to postulate this theory as there is other precedent showing that the folks running this campaign have been dishonest. Of course, until bikes ship I can not make any claims to what will actually be delivered so take your chances, I am just sharing observations.
Getting back to economics, right now Wave has about $150 of skin in the game and if that is a profit margin, it quickly vanishes... First off 8% of total, or $44 to indiegogo for their crowdfunding platform, then take $50 out of there for the supposed performance upgrades; the motor could be the same, but stepping the battery up to 48v and 12 Ah, assuming 13s4p is the way you would achieve 48v/11ah, you would effectively be adding 12 cells at $3 a pop, plus a headlight, and six boring color options, which is about $50 total to me.
Then the bikes take a boat ride to a US based shipper who breaks down the containers, adds all those alibaba quality "upgrades" for people thinking this will be the last ebike they ever buy (which sadly will likely be the case for many, ala Oldsmobiles's diesels of the 80s), and labels and ships to your door. The $200 part you pay on top supposedly only covers the to your door part of the voyage, so everything from China to US Soil would come out of the margin, so lets generously say another $50 for the freight and logistics. Now Wave has a $6 margin to cover a one year warranty, by my estimates.
Perhaps they are operating on razor thin margins or looking at this as a successful loss leader to cash in somewhere later down the line, I mean they have sold an astounding... 800 bikes as of today! Given what we (ES members) all know of mass-produced bargain Chinese motors, they will certainly be folks needing new motors in 2015. But there is another invisible cost that they have in common with the Sondors campaign, and that is a massive marketing budget:
Full Disclosure: I am a professional digital strategist and have worked on campaigns that launched some of the first mass-produced EVs here including the Transit Connect and Focus EV so know a thing or two in the area.
Long story short is that to get the kind of popular media coverage either the Sondors or Wave bikes have received you have to put down some serious cash. Tellingly the Sondors crew could not pay their $160k marketing bill, and that has exposed the ebike community to the world of Sponsored Content and Advertorials which makes a media blast easy, but not cheap. There were no TV commercials or print ads for the wave anywhere I could tell, yet a Google News search shows a huge and prolonged stream of promotion coming from somewhere and it certainly wasn't due to a good personal interest story or good creative.
The accolades claimed in Wave's are not good will for an product most people don't know they want yet, it is digital payola.
If Wave is coughing up, oh, half as much for their marketing, so they have another $80k in overhead to make up for. With 800 bikes sold already, they will only have to sell 12,500 more bikes to become profitable. Even if they are making $100 clean off each bike, they just broke even at $400k in sales, but it would hard to understand where that $100 would come from.
The economics are sketchy enough, but back to what I noticed that would make me question the credibility of the campaign and it's claims.
Douchbaggery: According to the respective campaign bios Aaron, the "CEO" of a two person project is a claimed "business guru," which says enough to me that I should hire him on the spot, no less send him $500 right now, but he would not be out done by the Sondors campaign and Mr Sondors' who claims himself as a "manufacturing fulfillment genius". Aaron, as acting Chief Guru and Poobah hired "Manufacturing & Marketing Genius" Justin, who who adds many levels of geniusness to the campaign. Justin was also a shrewd move as he was a diversification from the long hair, hanging out on the beach lifestyle that clearly both campaign's leadership embraced, at least by the photographic evidence presented.
Greenhorns: While the ES community embraces our new members, Aaron is one of the newest, with three posts and all in the thread, and all concerning his own product. While you could expect that, his unfamiliarity with electric locomotion and apparently bikes in general is disturbing for a guru of any level chakra. The Wave's claims of full legality except in NY are recklessly false, combining a disc and rim brake together are probably more dangerous (implied by scarcity), and they totally suck at photoshop. None of these are things to inspire any trust or imply any time spent on a two wheeled conveyance.
The Hustle: Here is the part that chapped my ass enough to write this article: this campaign shows signs that this is a fly by night operation and has no reason to be trusted. There is a matter of the ethics of the "affiliate" program attached to the campaign for others to get kickbacks for selling to their friends. This is the same business model of multi-level marketers and pyramid schemes like Amway, Ponzi, or Madhoff and while not inherently deceptive or harmful, show a hustle and grit that makes motivation questionable.
Plus This:
Or these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU3Dy-5Mmgk Published 3/31 by RadRover
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT4XnIhcDjU Published 4/23 by Wave
That is right, even the same crappy song!
Here we have a campaign that is willing to "be inspired" by another (outright steal, and infringe on a brand) more credible one as the RadRover was first to market on both assets, and that is hard to refute. Given that the specs of the Wave electric bike are closer to the RadRover's than the those of the alibaba source that they are purchasing the bike from and share identical weights with, it would suggest that there is something amiss. They have clearly borrowed other's creative due to laziness, wouldn't it be reasonable that they would copy the data too? There is no doubt that members of the wave campaign have clearly very weak business ethics, and that should raise suspicion of their product and intent.
And me? I will still build my own bikes, thank you. This is my caveat emptor to the new ebikers now and in the future, and hoping you all make the most informed decisions because you are supposed to be able to have fun and rely on your electric bike, not feel like you need to dodge the hustlers and rip-off artists out there.
Cheers!
What amazes me about the Wave bike in particular is how many red flags there are in this campaign, just similarities to the Storm bike are a pretty compelling reason to think twice.
First the similarities to the Storm/Sonders fiasco:
Suspicious Economics: It took about three minutes for the community to start dissecting the Sondors and it was clear that the sum of the parts were significantly greater than the whole. Maybe because the Wave does not have flashy tires or a custom battery box, but the same inconsistencies are prevalent; a battery that costs $350 wholesale ($500 delivered, if they really are A-rated Samsung cells) makes this either a bargain or suspicious from the get go.
Just an Upgraded Ali-Baba Bike: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/beach-cruiser-e-bike-electric-bike_1784463230.html
Sure the above bike has specs that are lower than the Wave's, but is at least a good starting point to dissect the price of $420 in quantities >100. If you look at characteristic bends in the downtube and seat stays, you can see that the frame is the same and the components look identical as well. With that considered, the Wave is either an upgraded version of the Alibaba Cruiser as it pushes specs up 12 volts, 500 watts, and 2Ah, which is an impressive feat with the claimed weights not changing at all, or I dare speculate that they are the same bike (with the Wave's obviously photoshopped logo) and Wave is fabricating it's performance claims as in crowdfunding they are not required to or especially expected to deliver them.
I am willing to postulate this theory as there is other precedent showing that the folks running this campaign have been dishonest. Of course, until bikes ship I can not make any claims to what will actually be delivered so take your chances, I am just sharing observations.
Getting back to economics, right now Wave has about $150 of skin in the game and if that is a profit margin, it quickly vanishes... First off 8% of total, or $44 to indiegogo for their crowdfunding platform, then take $50 out of there for the supposed performance upgrades; the motor could be the same, but stepping the battery up to 48v and 12 Ah, assuming 13s4p is the way you would achieve 48v/11ah, you would effectively be adding 12 cells at $3 a pop, plus a headlight, and six boring color options, which is about $50 total to me.
Then the bikes take a boat ride to a US based shipper who breaks down the containers, adds all those alibaba quality "upgrades" for people thinking this will be the last ebike they ever buy (which sadly will likely be the case for many, ala Oldsmobiles's diesels of the 80s), and labels and ships to your door. The $200 part you pay on top supposedly only covers the to your door part of the voyage, so everything from China to US Soil would come out of the margin, so lets generously say another $50 for the freight and logistics. Now Wave has a $6 margin to cover a one year warranty, by my estimates.
Perhaps they are operating on razor thin margins or looking at this as a successful loss leader to cash in somewhere later down the line, I mean they have sold an astounding... 800 bikes as of today! Given what we (ES members) all know of mass-produced bargain Chinese motors, they will certainly be folks needing new motors in 2015. But there is another invisible cost that they have in common with the Sondors campaign, and that is a massive marketing budget:
Full Disclosure: I am a professional digital strategist and have worked on campaigns that launched some of the first mass-produced EVs here including the Transit Connect and Focus EV so know a thing or two in the area.
Long story short is that to get the kind of popular media coverage either the Sondors or Wave bikes have received you have to put down some serious cash. Tellingly the Sondors crew could not pay their $160k marketing bill, and that has exposed the ebike community to the world of Sponsored Content and Advertorials which makes a media blast easy, but not cheap. There were no TV commercials or print ads for the wave anywhere I could tell, yet a Google News search shows a huge and prolonged stream of promotion coming from somewhere and it certainly wasn't due to a good personal interest story or good creative.
The accolades claimed in Wave's are not good will for an product most people don't know they want yet, it is digital payola.
If Wave is coughing up, oh, half as much for their marketing, so they have another $80k in overhead to make up for. With 800 bikes sold already, they will only have to sell 12,500 more bikes to become profitable. Even if they are making $100 clean off each bike, they just broke even at $400k in sales, but it would hard to understand where that $100 would come from.
The economics are sketchy enough, but back to what I noticed that would make me question the credibility of the campaign and it's claims.
Douchbaggery: According to the respective campaign bios Aaron, the "CEO" of a two person project is a claimed "business guru," which says enough to me that I should hire him on the spot, no less send him $500 right now, but he would not be out done by the Sondors campaign and Mr Sondors' who claims himself as a "manufacturing fulfillment genius". Aaron, as acting Chief Guru and Poobah hired "Manufacturing & Marketing Genius" Justin, who who adds many levels of geniusness to the campaign. Justin was also a shrewd move as he was a diversification from the long hair, hanging out on the beach lifestyle that clearly both campaign's leadership embraced, at least by the photographic evidence presented.
Greenhorns: While the ES community embraces our new members, Aaron is one of the newest, with three posts and all in the thread, and all concerning his own product. While you could expect that, his unfamiliarity with electric locomotion and apparently bikes in general is disturbing for a guru of any level chakra. The Wave's claims of full legality except in NY are recklessly false, combining a disc and rim brake together are probably more dangerous (implied by scarcity), and they totally suck at photoshop. None of these are things to inspire any trust or imply any time spent on a two wheeled conveyance.
The Hustle: Here is the part that chapped my ass enough to write this article: this campaign shows signs that this is a fly by night operation and has no reason to be trusted. There is a matter of the ethics of the "affiliate" program attached to the campaign for others to get kickbacks for selling to their friends. This is the same business model of multi-level marketers and pyramid schemes like Amway, Ponzi, or Madhoff and while not inherently deceptive or harmful, show a hustle and grit that makes motivation questionable.
Plus This:
Or these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU3Dy-5Mmgk Published 3/31 by RadRover
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT4XnIhcDjU Published 4/23 by Wave
That is right, even the same crappy song!
Here we have a campaign that is willing to "be inspired" by another (outright steal, and infringe on a brand) more credible one as the RadRover was first to market on both assets, and that is hard to refute. Given that the specs of the Wave electric bike are closer to the RadRover's than the those of the alibaba source that they are purchasing the bike from and share identical weights with, it would suggest that there is something amiss. They have clearly borrowed other's creative due to laziness, wouldn't it be reasonable that they would copy the data too? There is no doubt that members of the wave campaign have clearly very weak business ethics, and that should raise suspicion of their product and intent.
And me? I will still build my own bikes, thank you. This is my caveat emptor to the new ebikers now and in the future, and hoping you all make the most informed decisions because you are supposed to be able to have fun and rely on your electric bike, not feel like you need to dodge the hustlers and rip-off artists out there.
Cheers!
kimboviper
10 W
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2014
- Messages
- 97
i love how all these guys have "genius" or "guru" in their title but the only thing they are doing is reselling alibaba junk lol
Cyclebutt
100 W
At least they won't have to dedicate assembly to a new factory. Alibaba's supplier already has that covered. How many bikes can you get in one of those shipping containers and what does it cost to ship a container from China to the west coast.
This Indiegogo crowd funding is very interesting. Have you looked at some of the things people will fund? Kinda makes you wonder if this really is the "Wave" of the future..............
This Indiegogo crowd funding is very interesting. Have you looked at some of the things people will fund? Kinda makes you wonder if this really is the "Wave" of the future..............
Magnificent job by kmadd22. Anyway, I actually like the design of this Chinese ebike better, the X-Treme XB-300Li, of which I paid only $500....
The controller is sealed in a concealed compartment under the pedals and the battery is locked behind the seat post. It's a very stealthy build. The battery is 24V 8ah lithium-ion, the motor is 300W and the gears are Shimano. While the frame isn't steel, the aluminum alloy construction is very thick. I've beaten on mine for over 6000 miles in almost two years without a hiccup. Without pedaling, I can travel on a flat at 14mph. With pedaling, I hit a top speed of 28mph and a respectable range of 22-24 miles.
I would love to have the same design in a steel frame with 48V/12Ah and a 750W motor.
The controller is sealed in a concealed compartment under the pedals and the battery is locked behind the seat post. It's a very stealthy build. The battery is 24V 8ah lithium-ion, the motor is 300W and the gears are Shimano. While the frame isn't steel, the aluminum alloy construction is very thick. I've beaten on mine for over 6000 miles in almost two years without a hiccup. Without pedaling, I can travel on a flat at 14mph. With pedaling, I hit a top speed of 28mph and a respectable range of 22-24 miles.
I would love to have the same design in a steel frame with 48V/12Ah and a 750W motor.
aaronb said:Drunkskunk said:
Thanks for the compliment!I am actually one of the founders and have to say that people have really been hating on the sloped rear design of the rack, so we finally decided to change it to be more traditional and parallel with the ground. To be transparent, this campaign was never intended to offer a novel ground-breaking technology, but rather an electric bike with specs that are actually useful that can be obtained at a price point by most consumers.
People ask if the motor is regenerative, the frame is aluminum, etc. and for $499 these features don't exist at such a price point. We simply want to get a super affordable electric bike with a nice top speed and range into the hands of consumers since there are absolutely no options as of today for such a thing at this price point.
Aaron
Well they do exist because you just found it on Alibaba.com
But do you know why they where not a widely available mass marketed product?
Maybe i should just start a indigogo campain for the Yellow version, it looks much better and its yellow so i am sure it will be faster aswell!
http://hzyonghengcy.en.alibaba.com/product/60038548120-800376334/most_popular_yellow_beach_cruiser_electric_bike.html
Ps: Just wait until those Alibaba sellers get the fine art of marketing tricks like these and start making happy go lucky videoś to sell there products... they will freaking rule the world
Because some people have business ethics, these bikes will not last a year of serious usage without something breaking. And with you supplying these without retailers all over the usa people with have a hard time finding someone to do service on them. Someone that knows what is wrong and can replace a part quickly will not be available for the vast majority of the costumers, leaving anyone who cannot fix it by themselves stranded. Allot of people will have a bad experience with Ebikes because after warranty they will not be able to find a new battery or parts for there bikes, because you are not going to be the company that sticks around for a long time to sell parts and service.
Basically what you are doing is destroying the ebike market, people will not trust quality of these things and might be putt off by buying one in the future.
I am sure Elon Musk could produce a 15k electric car, and then just go bankrupt via some scammy method and leave thousands of people with a useless product a couple of years later.
But he will not do that, because he has business ethics and wants to make a better world
You just want to get rich fast and dump crappy products on the market
Cyclebutt
100 W
giveahoot said:Magnificent job by kmadd22. Anyway, I actually like the design of this Chinese ebike better, the X-Treme XB-300Li, of which I paid only $500....
The controller is sealed in a concealed compartment under the pedals and the battery is locked behind the seat post. It's a very stealthy build. The battery is 24V 8ah lithium-ion, the motor is 300W and the gears are Shimano. While the frame isn't steel, the aluminum alloy construction is very thick. I've beaten on mine for over 6000 miles in almost two years without a hiccup. Without pedaling, I can travel on a flat at 14mph. With pedaling, I hit a top speed of 28mph and a respectable range of 22-24 miles.
I would love to have the same design in a steel frame with 48V/12Ah and a 750W motor.
Excellent entry level eBike. With over 6000 miles, I would say this is an good candidate to crowd fund. The last time I looked at Alibaba it appeared that most of their bikes could be optioned up to higher specifications as desired. You just have to buy 100 bikes or more to get the cut rate deals. It doesn't take a genius or a guru to investigate the logistics involved to get the products to the USA. You just have to think in terms of QUANTITY. It just takes a computer and a good bit of investigative work.
That said, there is nothing to stop anyone from studying the Indiegogo rules and starting their own campaign. After I finish selling my house and most of it's contents I intend to look into this further. And I may market something else entirely! Seriously, look at some of the stuff people are funding!
LockH
1 PW
The Wave gets a "Thumb Up".
"Real 'sustainable' vehicles are government-free"
http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/real-sustainable-vehicles-are-government-free/
Writer Phil Elmore final bit:
"Real 'sustainable' vehicles are government-free"
http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/real-sustainable-vehicles-are-government-free/
Writer Phil Elmore final bit:
anoNY42
10 W
LockH said:
Gotta love that last line. However, the fact that the Wave Ebike was created *despite* the existence of our President kind of tells you that maybe the President isn't getting in the way that much after all....
ScooterMan101
1 MW
That bike looks like one of the $ 89 U.S. Dollar bikes you see at W.M. or other Slave Mart's.
Great Marketing . Just sell something that is already made, to people who do not know the difference.
For those of you outside of the U.S. ... This is America, where some people will flip anything ( Old P.O.S. House, Old P.O.S. Car , etc. to some fool willing to buy .
looks like from this and other things that indigogo is the new ponzi scheme / multi-level marketing scheme.
What was that P.T. Barnum Said ?
>
Great Marketing . Just sell something that is already made, to people who do not know the difference.
For those of you outside of the U.S. ... This is America, where some people will flip anything ( Old P.O.S. House, Old P.O.S. Car , etc. to some fool willing to buy .
looks like from this and other things that indigogo is the new ponzi scheme / multi-level marketing scheme.
What was that P.T. Barnum Said ?
>
kimboviper said:
LockH
1 PW
The Wave Owners Group on FacePlant (currently 392 Members(7 new))
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WaveEbikeOwners
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WaveEbikeOwners
LockH
1 PW
[Bump]
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/closed-campaign--14#/
CL los angeles > san gabriel valley >for sale > bicycles - by owner
Meanwhile... 750W Electric Bicycle - bicycles - by owner - bike sale:
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/bik/d/750w-electric-bicycle/6501419068.html
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/closed-campaign--14#/
CL los angeles > san gabriel valley >for sale > bicycles - by owner
Meanwhile... 750W Electric Bicycle - bicycles - by owner - bike sale:
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/bik/d/750w-electric-bicycle/6501419068.html
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