What are rules for international flight + Ebike Lifepo4

[lesdit]

I am flying to Europe from the US and would like to bring a folding bike powered by a 10ah Lifepo4
china battery. I understand there are some new rules concerning lithium batteries, but the rules
seem to be targeting laptops and tools.
Has anyone flew with a Lifepo4 'brick' , and can offer some advise ?
Thanks!

 

[ngocthach1130]

as far as i can tell no battery of any lithium variety can be carried on plane. One exception is electronics batteries such as cell phone, laptop etc. Even then only the battery attached to the laptop are allowed, no spare can be carried along.

 

[lesdit]

I think they allow tool batteries and spare electronics batteries if they are in 'original cases' or plastic bag.
Apparently they don't want them in check-in bags, they prefer carry-on ( theory is they can deal with it on
the plane then ). But the rules are fuzzy.
So nobody travels with their bikes or scooters overseas anymore?
I've taken a go board with built in lead acid cells, but that was 3 years ago. Great for zipping around those
sidewalks. I guess I can try to find a couple of gel cells over there. ( Eastern Europe ).
I'm surprised there isn't more info on this. I guess people are pretty listless these days.

 

[Lock]

HA! Can't say about LiFePO4, but I drove a Currie-built scoot out to the airport once. Folded up in a bag the airline declared it too small to charge me the extra charge usually levied for bicycles... They made me "un-package" it and drive it around inside the terminal building to "prove" it wasn't a bomb or whatever... very fun. Then the scoot didn't arrive with me at destination, but a day later. It was obvious then that the scoot had been disassembled and reassembled (with bits not put back together the right way...)
tks
llok

 

[gogo]

You can carry on (2) 30V 10AH lithium electric bike batteries, and if you had a little dinky electric bike that fit in your carry-on luggage, it could have a 30V 10AH battery installed.

And you can bring as many toolpack batteries as you please.

http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html

http://safetravel.dot.gov/documents/airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf

 

[dragonfire]

there are seemingly more chances to get it thorough in check-in baggage, this will be detail-checked but in after put back in your bag and be transported along while if being in the cabon-baggage the transport can be refused on site with the security staff. i once got a gas scooter through like that ( carb in the cabin baggage) and this is how i get my shampoo and deo and stuff with me - the bag wil get opened but the stuff is put back in after it is verificated that indeed is deo and tooth cleaning stuff, if having this in my boarding bag i have to throw it away. the rules differ from airport to airport and destination of flight, too.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I understand the frustration of the airlines. After that idiot tried to ignite his "shoe bomb" everybody now has to take off their shoes and run them through the scanner. If he had gone to the restroom to set it off...(although I have thought those womens wedge-clogs have very thick soles, good for smuggling "whatever")

I've flown a lot, and several times I've had to start a laptop to prove it worked (I'm guessing there was concern over a gutted computer could be filled with explosives) I immediately thought that mine has two bays, one can hold a second battery if I want, so mine could still run and yet hold a little bit of "whatever"

An E-bike battery pack could easily contain explosives. I'll bet the E-bike described above that arrived a day late was shipped in a cargo plane. Once extensive security concerns were implemented, it has become common in Japan to ship luggage ahead of time to your destination in a cargo plane, and many hotels have begun having their courtesy vans pick up your luggage and store it at your hotel before you even fly. This way, travellers only travel with carry-on.

With silly rules changing suddenly without any notice, I would be reluctant to take an E-bike or large battery pack with me to an airport.

 

[cycle9]

I understand the frustration of the airlines. After that idiot tried to ignite his "shoe bomb" everybody now has to take off their shoes and run them through the scanner. If he had gone to the restroom to set it off...(although I have thought those womens wedge-clogs have very thick soles, good for smuggling "whatever")

I've flown a lot, and several times I've had to start a laptop to prove it worked (I'm guessing there was concern over a gutted computer could be filled with explosives) I immediately thought that mine has two bays, one can hold a second battery if I want, so mine could still run and yet hold a little bit of "whatever"

An E-bike battery pack could easily contain explosives. I'll bet the E-bike described above that arrived a day late was shipped in a cargo plane. Once extensive security concerns were implemented, it has become common in Japan to ship luggage ahead of time to your destination in a cargo plane, and many hotels have begun having their courtesy vans pick up your luggage and store it at your hotel before you even fly. This way, travellers only travel with carry-on.

With silly rules changing suddenly without any notice, I would be reluctant to take an E-bike or large battery pack with me to an airport.

Hi
Based on what I've read about the rules, I wouldn't try it. The rules are very specific about Li-Ion batteries of any type, you cannot bring more than a total of "25 grams" worth of rechargable lithium battery on an airplane, period (even carry on).

The fines are stiff if you're found in violation. Apparently the FAA is compiling lists of incidents and paying increased attention to this.

Please - don't shoot the messenger. I'm just reporting what I've learned after my rude awakening to this subject in the past few days.

Morgan


For further reading, see:
http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/top-news/news-by-subject/legislation/index.cfm?i=51582
http://education.dot.gov/definitions.html
http://phmsa.dot.gov/portal/site/PHMSA/menuitem.ebdc7a8a7e39f2e55cf2031050248a0c/?vgnextoid=d9a82caa29457110VgnVCM1000009ed07898RCRD&vgnextchannel=0f0b143389d8c010VgnVCM1000008049a8c0RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

 

[lesdit]

My bike would be home made and because it lacks that 'polished' factor product look, would look suspicious. I can only imagine what the little 10ah battery would look like on the x ray machine. I believe the X grams of lithium actually refers to the amount of that element contained in the battery, not the weight of the whole battery.
I have been experimenting with some Prius battery sticks. The look a little odd as well, but they are not lithium. But how would they know that ? It has no label that says ' this battery is lithium free, TSA approved' !! They do look less bomb like, compared to a shrink wrap China ping pack.
I was hoping someone has recent experience with transporting these, to see what they are doing now.

 

[gogo]

The rules are very specific about Li-Ion batteries of any type, you cannot bring more than a total of "25 grams" worth of rechargable lithium battery on an airplane, period (even carry on).

Yes, the rules are very specific, and they are exactly as I stated. The rules say you can bring 2 spare large (less than 25g) lithium secondary batteries and another installed in a device. Furthermore, it says there is no restriction on the number of toolpack batteries in your carry-on.

You are the second person on these forums that doesn't seem to believe that the authorities are sincere with the information they give us. I'll agree that I shouldn't expect that whoever makes the call in the hour or two before your flight will pull their heads out of their asses in a timely manner, but they would be in contradiction to the official line if they denied you.

[EDIT] cycle9: Dude did you even read the info in your links? The 2 links that work both affirm what I have posted. I understand that you are concerned about the regulations that apply to commercial shipping, but they don't apply to passengers on airlines. "Transportation" as it is referred to in your OP is addressing commercial shipping, not personal transportation (ie driving your ebike on the road).

I got my information from the government entity that controls flyer information:

http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html

http://safetravel.dot.gov/documents/airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf

Are these sources in error? I looked this stuff up because I have a battery operated medical device.

@lesdit It would seem that you would need to visit the authority in charge of making the call at the airport in question and get it in writing that your battery is allowed.

They have a special machine to screen devices for explosives. They subject my medical device to this special check and they can easily do it with a battery.

 

[cycle9]

I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight by saying things like "You don't get it."

From the same government link you posted, it states

Lithium Ion Batteries with over 25 grams ELC are forbidden in air travel.

25 grams ELC is equal to a 10Ah 24V battery (8 cells of 10Ah) maximum, as I posted in the other thread.

Why are you trying to pick a fight, when you are wrong?

And, I'm not a "dude".

The rules are very specific about Li-Ion batteries of any type, you cannot bring more than a total of "25 grams" worth of rechargable lithium battery on an airplane, period (even carry on).

Yes, the rules are very specific, and they are exactly as I stated. The rules say you can bring 2 spare large (less than 25g) lithium secondary batteries and another installed in a device. Furthermore, it says there is no restriction on the number of toolpack batteries in your carry-on.

You are the second person on these forums that doesn't seem to believe that the authorities are sincere with the information they give us. I'll agree that I shouldn't expect that whoever makes the call in the hour or two before your flight will pull their heads out of their asses in a timely manner, but they would be in contradiction to the official line if they denied you.

[EDIT] cycle9: Dude did you even read the info in your links? The 2 links that work both affirm what I have posted. I understand that you are concerned about the regulations that apply to commercial shipping, but they don't apply to passengers on airlines. "Transportation" as it is referred to in your OP is addressing commercial shipping, not personal transportation (ie driving your ebike on the road).

I got my information from the government entity that controls flyer information:

http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html

http://safetravel.dot.gov/documents/airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf

Are these sources in error? I looked this stuff up because I have a battery operated medical device.

@lesdit It would seem that you would need to visit the authority in charge of making the call at the airport in question and get it in writing that your battery is allowed.

They have a special machine to screen devices for explosives. They subject my medical device to this special check and they can easily do it with a battery.

 

[gogo]

@ cycle9: I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm trying to "pick a fight". I have a vested interest in getting the correct information about batteries and airline travel. I think you are contradicting yourself and spreading bogus information.

For airline travel, the subject of this thread, 25g equivalency of lithium is considered to be anything less than 300 Wh. This is for each large secondary lithium battery in your carry-on, of which you are allowed 2 spare and one installed in your device. There is no restriction on how many small secondary lithium batteries you can have in your carry-on.

You claimed that only 25g total per passenger was allowed and that is false. I am not aware of your name, so I substituted the casual term, dude.

 

[cycle9]

@ cycle9: I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm trying to "pick a fight". I have a vested interest in getting the correct information about batteries and airline travel. I think you are contradicting yourself and spreading bogus information.

For airline travel, the subject of this thread, 25g equivalency of lithium is considered to be anything less than 300 Wh. This is for each large secondary lithium battery in your carry-on, of which you are allowed 2 spare and one installed in your device. There is no restriction on how many small secondary lithium batteries you can have in your carry-on.

You claimed that only 25g total per passenger was allowed and that is false. I am not aware of your name, so I substituted the casual term, dude.

Saying things like:

I think you are contradicting yourself and spreading bogus information.

Is picking a fight.

Now, as to the actual facts:

For airline travel, the subject of this thread, 25g equivalency of lithium is considered to be anything less than 300 Wh. This is for each large secondary lithium battery in your carry-on, of which you are allowed 2 spare and one installed in your device. There is no restriction on how many small secondary lithium batteries you can have in your carry-on.

If you read the actual letter of the DOT ruling on the matter, it says 25g is DEFINED AS 0.3g per Ah of cells, or "about 300wh". In actual fact, the letter of the ruling is 25g, which is less than 9 cells and more than 8 cells of 10Ah LiFePO4. If you disagree, please show me where my math is wrong.

And the DOT documents clearly include personal travel on airplanes. We may debate about the subject of the other thread (which is travel on roads with bikes), but the matter of air travel is open and shut. How much more clear does the following statement need to be? Directly from: http://safetravel.dot.gov/definitions.html#lithium_ion

Lithium Ion Batteries with over 25 grams ELC are forbidden in air travel.

Please note that in the original document, forbidden is highlighted in red, just like I've done here.

This does not say "forbidden except for X, Y, Z, or theta." It says forbidden.

If you want to convince people they are safe and will not get in trouble, be my guest. I am through wasting time arguing about something as clearly stated as the quote above directly from the DOT website.

 

[gogo]

I'm just restating their information. I never said anything about a battery with more than the allowed 300 Wh.

If 3.7V is taken as the voltage, then @ .3g per Ah, they have rounded down from 308 Wh. I never mentioned any numbers of cells.

*moderator edit, insults removed. .

 

[cycle9]

I'm just restating their information. I never said anything about a battery with more than the allowed 300 Wh.

Just above you said the limit was 300wh, and I clarified exactly what that limit came from and how it is technically defined. The limit is not actually 300wh, as I stated before (but for most purposes, it is close to that).

If 3.7V is taken as the voltage, then @ .3g per Ah, they have rounded down from 308 Wh. I never mentioned any numbers of cells.

3.7V is not the voltage of LiFePO4. It would apply, however, to LiCoO2. It is easy to get from the voltage of the pack to the voltage of cells with some simple math.

But the DOT rules are not defined by voltage, they are defined by exactly the equation I previously mentioned.

To spell it out:
LiFePO4 cells are 3.35 volts at resting charge.
10 Ah worth of those 3.35V cells is defined by the DOT as being 3g of lithium (it doesn't matter whether it is 3g or not in reality, they are DEFINING it that way, with a limit of 25g total)
If you have a 24 volt pack, therefore it is composed of 8 cells in series (which is technically 26.8 volts at rest). If you have a 36 volt pack, therefore it is composed of 12 cells in series (technically 40.2 volts at rest). I have built many of these packs, and I know what I'm talking about.

Why am I talking about 10Ah packs? Because that's what the original poster who started this thread asked about:

I am flying to Europe from the US and would like to bring a folding bike powered by a 10ah Lifepo4
china battery.

You may not be talking about them, but I am, because I was actually attempting to be helpful for the original poster. And what was the result of that?

I amazes me that vendors aren't more careful about the liability of sounding like a**edit**on public forums.

Ever wonder why so few vendors hang out here and give technical advice? (just look at my history of posts - I've answered many technical questions in my spare time here. Nearly all vendors I know stay away because of exactly these issues).

Have it your way, I don't need being called a "*EDIT"just for telling you what 3rd grade math would have told you. And I'm not going to be like Don and keep coming back for more abuse. I'm not trying to sell you a product here. You can take the information I spent my time to give, or you can ignore it and keep spewing names.

 

[Lock]

...and I will repeat (although my earlier post here was perhaps obscure) that customs et al will error on the side of "caution" (aka ignorance). Ya have been warned...
tks
loKk

 

[gogo]

I am flying to Europe from the US and would like to bring a folding bike powered by a 10ah Lifepo4
china battery. I understand there are some new rules concerning lithium batteries, but the rules
seem to be targeting laptops and tools.
Has anyone flew with a Lifepo4 'brick' , and can offer some advise ?
Thanks!

From a technical definition, you could travel within the USA with as big as a 9s8p Ping battery. @3.325V 1.25A per cell, that would be a 29.925V 10AH battery. You are allowed 2 of these as spares and one installed in your bike, all carry-on only. If you were bringing toolpack batteries under 100Wh each, you are not limited in how many are in your carry-on luggage.

I don't know what the regulations are when flying from the USA to another country. As Lock pointed out, you are at the mercy of the authority of the day at your airport. You may want to seek some sort of pre-approval.

http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html

http://safetravel.dot.gov/documents/airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf

 

[John in CR]

...If you were bringing toolpack batteries under 100Wh each, you are not limited in how many are in your carry-on luggage.

Those Bosch fatpacks just keep looking better and better.

John

 

[lesdit]

They type of exchange in the last few posts is exactly what I am fearing the tone would be like at the airport when I attempt to bring the battery aboard ! :?
My 10 ah china Lifepo4 is in blue shrink wrap, and has no capacity tag. I wonder how they are proposing to limit the lithium contents to under 25 g or whatever, if they can't even verify that it's a lithium battery in the first place ? My Prius cells are 'more professional' looking, but the text on the cells never states that they are Nimh chemistry. The rules look rather difficult to verify for sure.
I guess I'll look into pre approval, if such a channel of dialog even exists in the world of TSA and airlines. If you have a hint on how to arrange a pre inspection, please pass it on, I live near Los Angeles, so I would think LAX has that department, out of all of the airports.
What a long way we have come. Did you guys know that when airlines were first around, you could carry a gun on board in carry on ?

 

[Lock]

My 10 ah china Lifepo4 is in blue shrink wrap, and has no capacity tag.

Haha.. Just ask your China supplier to fake a tag. 99.999% of security/customs will not know the diff... OK, I admit, a short-term solution...

l

 

[cycle9]

They type of exchange in the last few posts is exactly what I am fearing the tone would be like at the airport when I attempt to bring the battery aboard ! :?

I don't often take the tone of my last few posts except when the matter is quite serious. This one is. While you can probably get away with this using the suggestions the other posters made, I am trying to simply inform you of the consequences if you do not escape notice. There are $50k fines for each infraction. And based on recent discussions I've had with someone who got "caught" shipping a LiFePO4 battery, the person has gotten calls from the FAA and DOT, and will be receiving a large and (as yet) unspecified fine. It is very clear that the FAA is paying increased attention to this issue. It is not like smuggling cigars from Cuba; this is real, and they appear to be serious.

I am not trying to prevent you from getting your battery. If it were me, and I were determined to do this, I'd probably find someone to air ship it for me (under their name as the shipper). It would cost a bit more, but if someone gets in trouble, it is the person whose name is the sender on the shipping label (not the receiver). Given that the shipper is in China, a DOT fine will be meaningless to them, and so won't harm them (at least in the short term). The DOT has no jurisdiction there; but it does have jurisdiction over you as soon as you are on american soil if you travel with your battery on your person.

I am not suggesting you violate the law, but I am suggesting that if you choose to do so anyway, that you do it in a way that puts you at less risk of penalty (and reduces risks to other passengers on your plane - LiFePO4 batteries do short circuit and cause fires from time to time, even if they are not the big/nasty lithium fires that other lithium types can cause). Doing illegal stuff as a passenger traveling on an airplane is about as conspicuous as you can get. Doing it as an anonymous shipper is far less conspicuous.

Morgan

 

[lesdit]

Wow. Someone you know of got 'caught' shipping a battery ?
That is serious. What were the rough circumstances that would cause a fine and more? The worst I imagined would be ' I'm sorry sir, your electric bike has a battery that isn't allowed on the plane due to the new rules '. Now if the dude :wink: was hiding it, that's a different story! I'm puzzled why you didn't mention the incident before?
Thanks for all the discussion so far to help me sort out this situation.

 

[cycle9]

Wow. Someone you know of got 'caught' shipping a battery ?
That is serious. What were the rough circumstances that would cause a fine and more? The worst I imagined would be ' I'm sorry sir, your electric bike has a battery that isn't allowed on the plane due to the new rules '. Now if the dude :wink: was hiding it, that's a different story! I'm puzzled why you didn't mention the incident before?
Thanks for all the discussion so far to help me sort out this situation.

The person who is on the receiving end of this incident does not want it made public, and I agreed not to divulge it. Plus I had thought you had read the $50,000 fine thread, where it was mentioned. My apologies for making that assumption and causing confusion.

The only thing I'll repeat about that incident is that there was a short-circuit in transit, which caused enough browning of the outer package that the shipper opened it up, and then contacted the FAA and DOT. From both agencies' resulting response, it is clear they mean business with this, and they have ongoing efforts to deal with the issue. The whole thing has opened my eyes. Before I was cautiously casual about it. Now I would not risk it myself - even if the probability of them finding out and stopping me was only 1 in 100, I'm not willing to take that particular gamble, since the penalties are severe if one gambles and looses.

I used to assume this kind of thing (a battery incident) was rare. But a few years ago it happened to me. I had taken a portable headlight system in my checked-luggage, which had a small rechargeable NiMH pack made by NiteRider. When it arrived at the other end, it had shorted at some point and melted itself. Fortunately I had isolated it well enough that it didn't light my luggage on fire. At the time I just dismissed that incident as a rare freak accident. But now, the FAA has compiled a whole list of such incidents - they are not rare. And the FAA is serious about doing something about it, before a passenger plane goes down. (The link to that list is posted at the end of the "$50,000 fine" thread).

I am not trying to spread fear about these batteries. I use one everyday on my bike (on which I carry my young daughter), and my own business is in part dependent on our ability to sell them. In fact, this whole issue is going to seriously cost us to figure out how we can comply with it or deal with it. I am not happy about it. And I do think that most LiFePo4 is just as safe as NiMH and Nicd.

That said, ALL of these batteries carry a lot of energy. And I have seen multiple packs of various chemistries that have defective wiring (I've taken apart and repaired quite a few of the packs made in China and elsewhere) that ends up in burnt wires, and occasionally more than that. It is the nature of the beast. It is just like auto gasoline - we all put it in our cars (those of us who drive, anyway), but it is not allowed in any form on an airplane. It's the same deal with the "large" lithium batteries. And right now, the FAA and DOT right now do not distinguish based on "type" of lithium battery - they see the label "lithium" and it is classified as dangerous a priori if it is above a certain size that was discussed earlier.

Again, I do not know how you will be treated if you try this. Chances are you will make it through with no problem. It is just the "worst case" scenario I'm trying to inform you about so you can make the best decision. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't chance it, because my risk appetite for dealing with things like heavy fines is low. Maybe yours is different than mine, and that's fine.

 

[GTA1]

The attitudes expressed here suggest that there need to be a drastic clampdown by DOT on large, high capacity battery devices (regardless of technology) that store a lot of energy and can be a hazard.

It is irrelevant whether the technology is "safe" when such things as short circuits can cause catastrophic events even with the best engineered devices.

I would rather not be flying with people who want to carry "an unlimited number" of tool batteries with them.

 

[gogo]

Heh, its hard to argue that high discharge batteries should be carried separately from passengers. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to arrange. Maybe an ejectable pod? Do they still pack the cargo holds of passenger aircraft with parcel shipments?

Passengers should be screened for VOCs also. I sat behind a lady who must have had at least one can of freshly applied hairspray in her big-hair do. My eyes were watering and I had trouble breathing.