What are rules for international flight + Ebike Lifepo4

[GTA1]

Heh, its hard to argue that high discharge batteries should be carried separately from passengers. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to arrange. Maybe an ejectable pod? Do they still pack the cargo holds of passenger aircraft with parcel shipments?

Passengers should be screened for VOCs also. I sat behind a lady who must have had at least one can of freshly applied hairspray in her big-hair do. My eyes were watering and I had trouble breathing.

Start with putting people who carry known hazards on the no fly list.

 

[GTA1]

Try this link:

http://www.nexergy.com/media/pdfs/TRANS_Overview.pdf

Just about any large lithium battery qualifies as a Class 9 hazard.

 

[John in CR]

I would rather not be flying with people who want to carry "an unlimited number" of tool batteries with them.

That statement is made only out of ignorance. Please produce an example of a toolpack causing a problem. Their structure makes them nearly impossible to short due to the recessed slot connectors. Then even if you managed to create a short, the internal fuse would immediately fry and prevent any issue. Due to their designed use (rough treatment, expectations of being thrown in toolboxes full of metal objects, etc.), they are about as safe as you're going to get, and that's why they are the sole exception in the regulations.

John

 

[GTA1]

I would rather not be flying with people who want to carry "an unlimited number" of tool batteries with them.

That statement is made only out of ignorance. Please produce an example of a toolpack causing a problem. Their structure makes them nearly impossible to short due to the recessed slot connectors. Then even if you managed to create a short, the internal fuse would immediately fry and prevent any issue. Due to their designed use (rough treatment, expectations of being thrown in toolboxes full of metal objects, etc.), they are about as safe as you're going to get, and that's why they are the sole exception in the regulations.

John

Suppose a fire started from some other source.... would these toolpack batteries become an accelerant?

Oxygen cylinders are perfectly safe (it is, after all, just the portion of air concentrated), but in the presence of a flame, escaping oxygen is an accelerant that will cause other things to combust.

Once upon a time, an airline carried something that ought to be perfectly safe: expired oxygen generators in the cargo compartment.

Only problem... somehow... it ignited... and landed Valuejet in the Everglades.


Look to the unlimited tool pack rules to be one of the first casualties of the policy review going on right now regarding lithium batteries.

Furthermore, look for the rule to be broadened to apply to any high capacity / high density energy storage device.



Look at the conclusions of the NTSB Valuejet Flight 592 Report.... the conclusions it reached almost certainly will be used in a future report regarding the transportation of high capacity / high power density storage devices:

NTSB Report
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: which resulted from a fire in the airplane's class D cargo compartment that was initiated by the actuation of one or more oxygen generators being improperly carried as cargo, were

1. the failure of SabreTech to properly prepare, package, and identify unexpended chemical oxygen generators before presenting them to ValuJet for carriage;
2. the failure of ValuJet to properly oversee its contract maintenance program to ensure compliance with maintenance, maintenance training, and hazardous materials requirements and practices; and
3. the failure of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to require smoke detection and fire suppression systems in class D cargo compartments.

Contributing to the accident was the failure of the FAA to adequately monitor ValuJet's heavy maintenance programs and responsibilities, including ValuJet's oversight of its contractors, and SabreTech's repair station certificate; the failure of the FAA to adequately respond to prior chemical oxygen generator fires with programs to address the potential hazards; and ValuJet's failure to ensure that both ValuJet and contract maintenance facility employees were aware of the carrier's 'no-carry' hazardous materials policy and had received appropriate hazardous materials training. (NTSB Report AAR-97/06)

 

[gogo]

Heh, its hard to argue that high discharge batteries should be carried separately from passengers. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to arrange. Maybe an ejectable pod? Do they still pack the cargo holds of passenger aircraft with parcel shipments?

Passengers should be screened for VOCs also. I sat behind a lady who must have had at least one can of freshly applied hairspray in her big-hair do. My eyes were watering and I had trouble breathing.

Start with putting people who carry known hazards on the no fly list.

Oops, I forgot the "not". I meant to say: Heh, its hard to argue that high discharge batteries should not be carried separately from passengers.

@GTA1 How known is the hazard if the regulators are allowing it? I find it strange that you have more criticism for people following the rules than for those who made the rules.

Perhaps high discharge batteries are potentially hazardous, and as John in CR points out, toolpack batteries the least potentially hazardous.

One spark and that ladie's hair would have gutted the plane. That do was gassing big time.

 

[TylerDurden]

I sat behind a lady who must have had at least one can of freshly applied hairspray in her big-hair do. My eyes were watering and I had trouble breathing... That do was gassing big time.

Could'a been her FDS...

 

[John in CR]

GTA1,

Now you're grasping at straws by calling a lithium tool pack an accelerant. Just for grins, after the kids are finished roasting marshmallows this weekend, I'll fully charge one of my Konion rejects and toss it in the fire along with one of the plastic toolpack cases and see what happens. My guess is that it won't do much after having already seen the uneventful result of creating a short within a cell, but we'll see. If you've got a fire on a plane that's big enough to get through luggage and start burning the plastic of some toolpack batteries in the overhead or in the luggage compartment, then you've already got a big problem, the least of which is some LiMn battery packs.

John

 

[lesdit]

Which of these two planes would you ride in:
1> Plane 1 has 1/2 the cargo hold full of Cammy China duct tape batteries.
2> Plane 2 has 1/2 the cargo hold of ( insert favorite tool pack battery ) .

I think the choice is clear. Especially if the baggage loaders were pissed that day and threw many of the boxes.

 

[GTA1]

GTA1,

Now you're grasping at straws by calling a lithium tool pack an accelerant. Just for grins, after the kids are finished roasting marshmallows this weekend, I'll fully charge one of my Konion rejects and toss it in the fire along with one of the plastic toolpack cases and see what happens. My guess is that it won't do much after having already seen the uneventful result of creating a short within a cell, but we'll see. If you've got a fire on a plane that's big enough to get through luggage and start burning the plastic of some toolpack batteries in the overhead or in the luggage compartment, then you've already got a big problem, the least of which is some LiMn battery packs.

John

If you are so confident of your case, kindly improve your experiment by ducting the fumes released from the burning batteries to a enclosed space that simulates the cabin of, say, a mid sized executive jet aircraft. Be sure you have very little ventilation to simulate the cabin conditions found aboard most aircraft.

Put your kids and yourself in the enclose space and be sure that there is a timed lock that do not permit opening the cabin for, say 1 hr, to simulate the normal time lag between incident to a safe landing at an airport.

Make a live broadcast / video and audio record with witnesses around to attest that this is a true and accurate picture of what you are doing.

Assuming that you and the kids survive this incident, I will be glad to forward all the documentation to your local Child Protection Agency and Prosecutor.


Warning: Doing the above will result in serious harm and possibly death. Do not attempt to do what I suggested.


Have fun.

 

[GTA1]

This is from the other thread... but the closest you are going to come to a e Bike reg is the regs for wheelchairs:

Currently, the HMR permit a wheelchair
or other battery-powered mobility aid to
be carried on board a passenger aircraft
as checked baggage provided that (1)
visual inspection, including removal of
the battery if necessary, reveals no
obvious defects; (2) the battery is
disconnected and terminals are
insulated to prevent short-circuiting;
and (3) the battery is securely attached
to the wheelchair or mobility aid or
removed and separately packaged. We
are concerned, however, that repeated
handling of the battery in a wheelchair
or other mobility aid could result in
damage or other problems that could
compromise safety. Moreover, the
design batteries and their housing have
significantly improved in recent years.
Therefore, in the NPRM, we proposed to
revise § 175.10(a)(15) to eliminate the
requirement to disconnect the terminals
when a battery-powered wheelchair or
other mobility aid is transported as
checked baggage provided the device
provides an effective means of
preventing unintentional activation.
Battery terminals must continue to be
protected from short-circuiting, but such
protection is inherent in the design of
most wheelchairs and mobility aids.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=24206

 

[John in CR]

GTA1,

How about you do the same with your laptop, cell phone, and carry-on bag itself?

Better yet, I'll mail you a few cells to slice up and eat, since you seem to be missing your daily dosage.

John

ps- I'm sorry I got dragged into this exchange with an obvious troll. I ignored the early warning, but will now end my participation.

 

[GTA1]

When the facts are against the Lithium consumers...... they give up.

 

[John in CR]

When the facts are against the Lithium consumers...... they give up.

No, once I win an argument then it's finished. I just won't participate in a troll's endless changing of the topic for him to argue for argument's sake.

John

 

[GTA1]

GTA1,

How about you do the same with your laptop, cell phone, and carry-on bag itself?

Better yet, I'll mail you a few cells to slice up and eat, since you seem to be missing your daily dosage.

John

ps- I'm sorry I got dragged into this exchange with an obvious troll. I ignored the early warning, but will now end my participation.

Since you have no intention of ending (as you claimed), my policy is to only take such batteries that I know are genuine, OEM batteries aboard aircraft in full compliance with existing TSA and HMR.

I did own a dubious laptop battery (that was rebuilt) and that battery was disposed of in order to render it harmless.

 

[GTA1]

When the facts are against the Lithium consumers...... they give up.

No, once I win an argument then it's finished. I just won't participate in a troll's endless changing of the topic for him to argue for argument's sake.

John

That MUST be the reason why you did not respond to this post:

GTA1,

Now you're grasping at straws by calling a lithium tool pack an accelerant. Just for grins, after the kids are finished roasting marshmallows this weekend, I'll fully charge one of my Konion rejects and toss it in the fire along with one of the plastic toolpack cases and see what happens. My guess is that it won't do much after having already seen the uneventful result of creating a short within a cell, but we'll see. If you've got a fire on a plane that's big enough to get through luggage and start burning the plastic of some toolpack batteries in the overhead or in the luggage compartment, then you've already got a big problem, the least of which is some LiMn battery packs.

John

If you are so confident of your case, kindly improve your experiment by ducting the fumes released from the burning batteries to a enclosed space that simulates the cabin of, say, a mid sized executive jet aircraft. Be sure you have very little ventilation to simulate the cabin conditions found aboard most aircraft.

Put your kids and yourself in the enclose space and be sure that there is a timed lock that do not permit opening the cabin for, say 1 hr, to simulate the normal time lag between incident to a safe landing at an airport.

Make a live broadcast / video and audio record with witnesses around to attest that this is a true and accurate picture of what you are doing.

Assuming that you and the kids survive this incident, I will be glad to forward all the documentation to your local Child Protection Agency and Prosecutor.


Warning: Doing the above will result in serious harm and possibly death. Do not attempt to do what I suggested.


Have fun.

Victory!!!!!! John in CR won!!!!!



Emperor Hiro Tito could not have said it better when he said: "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage,"


Seppuku instructions for John in CR are found here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku

 

[gogo]

It is irrelevant whether the technology is "safe" when such things as short circuits can cause catastrophic events even with the best engineered devices.

my policy is to only take such batteries that I know are genuine, OEM batteries aboard aircraft in full compliance with existing TSA and HMR.

Start with putting people who carry known hazards on the no fly list.

GTA1, did you just qualify yourself for the no-fly list?

 

[GTA1]

It is irrelevant whether the technology is "safe" when such things as short circuits can cause catastrophic events even with the best engineered devices.

my policy is to only take such batteries that I know are genuine, OEM batteries aboard aircraft in full compliance with existing TSA and HMR.

Start with putting people who carry known hazards on the no fly list.

GTA1, did you just qualify yourself for the no-fly list?

I applied but was rejected. Can you give me the inside track?

 

[gogo]

I can vouch for you, yes.

 

[GTA1]

I can vouch for you, yes.

Oh great.... I was told that if you can provide me with a personal letter of reference signed by yourself, giving your full contact details and ID, together with a reference letter from your associate and colleague Osama BinLaden, my application will get approved.

Would you mind doing this the next time you travel to Pakistan to seek instruction and authorization for your projects from Osama?

I can help you by providing you with a satellite phone so you can fax the documents to me once you are there.

Little peons like me just don't have your clout in these matters.

 

[John in CR]

Anonymity afforded by the internet tends to bring the worst out in some people. Thankfully that kind of childishness is fairly rare on ES. I've heard there's an underground organization calling themselves The Troll Patrol, who track down forum trolls and give them their due.

John

 

[Anonymous]

.

 

[GTA1]

TSA, DOT and the FBI, not to mention State and Local law enforcement agencies, routinely check for things like blog posts to get early warning and to gather information to prosecute persons or organizations that willfully violate federal law.

They are rather frightful trolls.... once, I got a sideways glimpse of how they dealt with a violator of federal law and regulations (with respect to a very serious aviation incident causing loss of life and destruction of aircraft)....

Swooped into the facility, seized all the records, all computers, email, all data storage.... plus backups... plus....


Have fun talking about willfully breaking HMR and Federal Law on here.

 

[Anonymous]

.

 

[John in CR]

Anonymity afforded by the internet tends to bring the worst out in some people. Thankfully that kind of childishness fairly rare on ES. I've heard there's an underground organization calling themselves The Troll Patrol

"On the first day, Al Gore invented the internet, and it was good. On the second day, trolls emerged from the bowels of the earth. And the internets weren’t quite so good after that." (trollpatrol.com)

Good website. I should have known there was such a site. Good advice there, and I apologize to all for feeding it [the troll].

I'll officially brand it as recommended at http://trollpatrol.com:

GTA1, aka gpa=1, is a troll. It regularly frequents at least twenty news groups and forums, including many
rabid/sex/racist groups. Normally, it starts off with reasonable, even witty lines, but rapidly drifts into lies, abuse and stupidity. Check its details at Google Groups. It is a sad creature, deserving of pity, not anger. Any direct response
simply feeds it, but it will go away if we ignore it.

John

 

[GTA1]

GTA1, aka gpa=1, is a troll. It regularly frequents at least twenty news groups and forums, including many
rabid/sex/racist groups. Normally, it starts off with reasonable, even witty lines, but rapidly drifts into lies, abuse and stupidity. Check its details at Google Groups. It is a sad creature, deserving of pity, not anger. Any direct response
simply feeds it, but it will go away if we ignore it.

John

When John in CR wins like Emperor Hirohito and fails to do his duty to commit seppuku, he resorts to fraud, lies, and deceit.

I now challenge you to prove and document, with links and facts, your allegation that GTA1 "regularly frequents at least twenty news groups and forums, including many rabid/sex/racist groups.""


Prove it.

Or, you have proven yourself to be a fraud, and will stop at nothing to deceive, lie, and scam posters of this forum.