What are the lightest and most quiet ebike motors?

[schwibsi]

I'm looking for a new motor preferably front or rear with a cassette.

I've been looking at the Q75, Q85, Mxus, Keyde, small Bafang. The Vivax assist is way too expensive.
Which one is the most quiet of the small ones, any experiences?
What's the smallest direct drive motor?
Are there any mid-drives lighter than the BBS01 (apart from the Vivax Assist)?

 

[spinningmagnets]

For aboslute quiet, get a direct drive motor and couple it with a sinewave controller. The BionX fits the bill. It's a bit pricey, but...its a quality product...as long as you don't try to hot rod it, because the proprietary controller is built into the hub, and too much heat from higher amps is bad for them. That would be the second option, the third option would be a Conhis motor (the 24V motor is the "fast" low turn-count motor, and the 48V is the "slow" high turn count motor, 36V is inbetween, all three have the same construction): http://www.conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=91

You might try a Crystalyte G-series, DD hub with cassette, add the sinewave controller of your choice, and report back how it turned out?

"Crystalyte G-series" 6-pages
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34203

"Sine wave controllers, making hub motors super quiet"
http://www.electricbike.com/sine-wave/

If you want snappy acceleration, run it at 72V and put it in a 20-inch wheel with a 22-inch moped tire.

"moped tires"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40123

 

[schwibsi]

I have a few sine-wave controllers here, Chinese made, and German made true sine-wave controller.
I agree, the noise from the block-commutation is unnecessary.

BionX is way too heavy. I was looking for 1-1.5kg.
Also they're rear drive and I'd really like to go with a front drive motor this time.
The Clyte G-series is also over 4kg, way over the limit. Those were the lightest 2 direct drives I knew of, too, but I'd like something closer to a bicycle rather than a motorcycle. I don't need more than 100W continuous support.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I was looking for 1-1.5kg.

Q75 is 1.2Kg, nothing else is under 1.6kg.

You might consider a Kepler drive

 

[MadRhino]

Motors do make a very different noise when you feed them high or low power. Generally speaking, slow DD hub motors are quiet, while the fast windings are making more noise. Then, as you feed more and more power, it is the weight that is helping to silence a motor.

The old Clyte X4 series are reputed to be very silent, but they are hard to find and can't take high power.
The X 5404 on my V 10 is very silent, even when fed high power.

 

[schwibsi]

I am aware that the controller, the spokes, the rim, the way the wheel is laced, the frame, current, speed etc will all influence the noise.
I'm just wondering, out of the light-weight options, which one is the least noisy one.
I'm looking for very little power, maybe 100W, so more than 5-6A wouldn't be necessary. The heavy Crystalytes are very quiet when paired with a true sine-wave controller. However, that's not what I'm looking for. It has to be very light.

I didn't know the Kepler friction drive. But the install looks less than clean. So I'm afraid that one's out, too :-(

 

[MadRhino]

At that low power, any DD hub will be silent so you can buy a small one. The most silent solution is likely to be the heavier of them small motors, you be the judge if better silence is worth a tad more weight.

 

[schwibsi]

The smallest dd, I found, is bionx at over 4kg. More than 2.5kg is a lot of weight on a bike.

 

[motomech]

I'm looking for a new motor preferably front or rear with a cassette.

I've been looking at the Q75, Q85, Mxus, Keyde, small Bafang. The Vivax assist is way too expensive.
Which one is the most quiet of the small ones, any experiences?
What's the smallest direct drive motor?
Are there any mid-drives lighter than the BBS01 (apart from the Vivax Assist)?

The lightest and I suspose, the quietest, is pretty obvious, the smaller version of what you have been using,
the Q75:

rotor alnico number: 16
reduction ratio: 13.4
Power: 200Watts
Max. Torque: 40N.M
Hall Sensor: sensorless
Fork size: 100mm
Efficiency: 80
Cable Location: Left
Brake Type: V-Brake
Axle Size: M12
Voltage: 36V
Weight: 1.2Kg

!6 poles for less growl
Compound plastic gears for less whine.
Match with sine-wave controller.

I think the lightest and smallest DD motor is the Atoema:

http://www.hightekbikes.com/aotema-hub-motor-conversion-kit.html

 

[whereswally606]

Hey Swibsi,

Been thinking the exact same thing recently, currently I've given up driving to work for a month till I move house so as to not have to pay my insurance company their silly admin fees (for changing the address details) and also to save money on petrol and insurance for this month anyway.

Currently im riding a scott ransom (Alu) with a magic pie and stock external MP controller with settings to keep the watts low for commuting. With one large boxy battery on the seat post and one bottle style battery underslung on the down tube the bike weighs a fair bit. I am getting very fit since its 22 miles each way but I keep looking at the drainbrain/wattmeter and seeing that I'm only using 200w average which is fine, but that makes me think if the bike weighed a lot less then id be getting to work a lot quicker, have to carry less battery, be able to jump styles/Gates/fences and be a lot less conspicuous on the bike paths (not that anyone ive met has been bothered as I try to ride sensibly)

So this all makes me think Kepler had the right idea with his super commuter. Id like to take it a step further and do some carbon fibre sidecovers like keyne or even go the whole hog and make the hubmotor integrated into a solid carbon time trial style wheel. Anyway been looking at egay and carbon bikes, cheapo Chinese can be had new for about 250/300£ and there are plenty decent second hand. Cannondale Scalpel is one I really think would excel as an offroad super light commuter. Its like an Lts but with a carbon backend and superlight alu front.

anyway summary have you thought about q75 with carbon side covers (every little helps)

 

[schwibsi]

The Q75 will not work for me as it can't take a disc brake.
So, I'll probably end up trying a Q85 and a Keyde motor.

Let's say you take a light bike add a Keyde or Q85 (1.6kg) a controller (200g for Q85 only) and a battery between 10s2p (1kg) and 13s3p (1.8kg), you'll end up with a still very light ebike.

A 7+kg magic pie is almost the weight of the bike, I have in mind.

The Kepler solution with the rc motor seems to be a noisy option.
Having the housing of a hub motor custom made from carbon is nothing I can have done :-( I'd love to see it though

I think the key problem is that we have worlds colliding here. A 4+kg BionX is in my view is not a component for a light weight bike and LiFePo batteries do not have a place on any vehicle.

I'm looking to build a bike that is significantly under 15kg incl. motor, electronics, battery and Alfine hub. It's supposed to be and ride like a bicycle with assistance, not a motorcycle with pedals.

 

[Cephalotus]

BionX SL Motor weights 3,4kg incl. controller.

In Germany only the freewheel versions are available, so you have to mount a freewheel that weights around 600g (except you are using a 1 gear freewheel). BionX lists a S Motor for the US that also weights 3,4kg and takes standard gears.

My Cute 85 (210rpm) that I use with a KU63 controller limited to around 11A at 36V has been moderatly silent for some time, but become loader afteraround 1000-2000km. I replaced some screws, replaced both bearings and added more fat. I assume that other peoples experience will not help you much, because Cute 85 motors vary from sample to sample ( I had three of them) and even the same motor can be noisy sometimes and moderatly silent on other times. Using it only with 5-6A will help, I assume.

Maybe I should try a sine wave controller...

For comparison: The BionX is a lot less noisy than the Cute 85. But BionX is a 1300W motor (30A at 45V), using it at 5A would be wasting it's potential.

PS: Afaik Cute 85 also does not take disc brakes.

 

[melodious]

In my search for a front wheeled motor for my folding bike I had little options due to the smaller dropout width of the 83mm fork. One option was a keyde, the other was the q85. I purchased the q85. The machining of the axle was made for small fork widths. If your fork is the ohso common 100mm variety, you may be forced to use spacers. I hope this info helps in your choice.

As far as noise, it's not completely silent. But once your up and running, the wind noise overtakes the motor's small whining noise. It's the same situation with my other bike with a MAC motor installed. From videos of folks running over 1500 watt direct drives, there is a large bump in the amount of noise, dare I say it competes with bike & road noises? May be due to not being sine wave driven?

 

[miro13car]

since it is also about DD MOTOR NOISE.
I saw Stealth Fighter DD hub motor ebike for the first time week ago, spoke with owner, heard it.
It uses China brand I think X5.. series motor , cost over $9000 /!!!/, definitely makes noise quite noticeable on acceleration.
I don't care it is only on acceleration or damped by wind, noise is noise.
Stealth ?? I could easly hear it 50 meters away.
So "noise" is a relative term.
FALCO DD kit is truly silent even on the hardest acceleration. Designed in USA, made in India.
Just enter "FALCO" into ES search box.

 

[schwibsi]

@ cephalotus
You're right about the Q85 and the disc brakes. I couldn't find a disc brake version. Such a pity.
I've decided to go with an Alfine 11 in the rear so the BionX is out for yet another reason. 3.4kg wouldn't be too bad for a direct drive, but the closed nature of the BionX system is just not for me.
I guess, you're right about the varying noise levels of the Q85. The different Q100s I've seen so far, varied quite a bit, too. One was a lot louder than a Mac I had. A proper sinewave controller (like the one Barmal makes) with working hall sensors is, of course, essential. Other forms of commutation add unnecessary noise in my view.

@miro13car
The Falcon people do have a nice website. But their motors are way to large and too heavy for my purposes.
"Noise" for me is anything louder than a normal MTB-tyre on the road. That's more or less the noise level my Xofo motors emit, when paired with Barmal's sine wave controller.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Did you end up choosing a motor, schwibsi?

 

[schwibsi]

I ended up ordering a small front hub motor from Keyde (probably a Tongsheng) but cancelled that order last week as they still hadn't delivered :-(

 

[bowlofsalad]

I ended up ordering a small front hub motor from Keyde (probably a Tongsheng) but cancelled that order last week as they still hadn't delivered :-(

Bummer, annoyingly I had never heard of keyde until this thread, when I did a search I found a short series of videos that didn't paint a great picture.

What is your backup plan? You mentioned a small bafang, but I am not sure which motor that would be (lots of options there). Have you considered the Q100h(2.1kg)? I'd love to be able to use a Q75 weighing in at shocking 1.2kg, but the lack of disc brake rotor mount and rear wheel option kills that for me.

 

[docnjoj]

I realize it is a bit heavier than the Cute but the Xiongda 2 speed is the quietest gear motor I have used. I have three Swxxx type rear Bafangs and it is substantially quieter, especially in the high gear. They do make a front one for 100mm forks. The old Tongxin were quite unreliable, but I don't know much about the new Keyde roller motors.
otherDoc

 

[spinningmagnets]

An option for consideration might be the MXUS small geared motor. I just looked at a cutaway display model at Interbike, and i immediately noticed that it is using helical gears in the geared reduction. I have not tried one, and I have no idea if the planets would be loud or not, but...helical gears are an inexpensive upgrade that has been long overdue. I'm talking about the smallest hub with a cassette freehub.

I suspect that this new development is the result of the broad industry experience with the Bosch and BBS02 mid drives over this last year, since their quiet operation has established a new standard to compare the other options to.

 

[docnjoj]

An option for consideration might be the MXUS small geared motor. I just looked at a cutaway display model at Interbike, and i immediately noticed that it is using helical gears in the geared reduction. I have not tried one, and I have no idea if the planets would be loud or not, but...helical gears are an inexpensive upgrade that has been long overdue. I'm talking about the smallest hub with a cassette freehub.

I suspect that this new development is the result of the broad industry experience with the Bosch and BBS02 mid drives over this last year, since their quiet operation has established a new standard to compare the other options to.

Interesting S/M. The newer MY16xxx is a helical version of the old My18xx on the Mongoose CX450 and other cheaper geared bikes and is apparently much quieter. I've only driven the old ones and they are REALLY loud with straight cut metal gears. DrkAngel reviews this motor somewhere. The Xiongda uses straight cut composite/metal but sounds like a "woosh" rather than a whine. Relatively pleasant sound and very quiet.
otherDoc

 

[zukster]

We're you still working on this?

I just went for the Q100C and to make up for the extra 600g or so over the Q75 I used lighter components to save 100g here and 100g there. Carbon seatpost, XTR cassette, etc.

So that's an idea if you weren't going to do that already.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54297#p849453

I prefer the motor on the rear and used a light rotor too.

I just saw this keyde 1.5kg front that takes a disc.

http://keyde.en.alibaba.com/product...e_brushless_disc_brake_motor_front_wheel.html

Did you see that one already. I think the controller is not inside which will be better.