What can you tell me about Tidal Force motors

[blueb0ttle2]

Apparently they are American made (For military use originally), and the company stopped making them. Also, they had an odd system of butting an 8AH 36V battery in one of the wheels.
That's all I know so far. The reason I ask is because someone in my county is selling a non-working bike with one of these for $500 (Been there for a while, maybe I can haggle it down) and I have the itching suspicion that this could be a smokin' deal for someone with a bit of experience (Like me).
So, are they brushed or brushless? Can you run them of controllers apart from their own? How much can I push this beast?

 

[blueb0ttle2]

I see that they are brushless and have an internal controller. It is more than likely that the model being offered is a 750 watt.
I'd have to have a look at the bike, and go over it with a multimeter to see if it is worth the time. I hope it is merely a seller who doesn't know how to change a battery (The norm here) and not a controller problem.
But if there is more tech info out there or ways to hack it to use an external controller (One of LYEN's?) and overvolt it.
All the best,
blueb0ttle2

 

[ohzee]

I remember quite a few people on here talking about those bikes in the past. usually it seemed like the front battery was worthless.
From what I remember the components and motor were well made.

 

[dnmun]

i think the tidal force has a 5 phase motor, and there is a nicad pack in the front hub. you would have to learn a lot to make something work if the battery is dead, which it most likely is. expensive to send them out for repair too. but beautiful design and smooth power from what i know.

the british special forces parachute with a foldup tidal force called the montague. part of the kit they jump with.

 

[blueb0ttle2]

It should be possible to run this off some other 36V pack...right?
I am mainly interested in having a first-world made brushless motor.

 

[miro13car]

I own exact ebike shown in picture.
Itis Tidal Force system which comes in 750W, 1000W and Canadian 500W versions. Designed by Wavecrest Laboratories and bulid in USA.
Even NMH cells in its battery were not China made, but imported from France -SAFT;
My has 21,400km/!!!!/ on original Cateye computer/ BTW still original battery in Cateye computer for seven years!!.
I had to go to original documents to check but I bought it in JULY 2005.
Paid $3500 at that time and it was worth every dollar I paid.
After you ride TF for days
every other eride feels inferior, because it is the most smooth system of ebike and I tried many of them starting with $500 Wallmart, Canadian Tire crap. Only when you get on Optibike or Kalchoff category for example so you can experience similar quality of build and solid feel similar to TF.
7-phase motor is superb smooth with no hint of cogging , completely silent, rain resistant, electrically self-protected in many ways/cannot overvolt it, will never overheat /. This ebike was through pouring rain many times, 20-30cm snow many times in minus 20C many times.
Opened motor/controller at just above 10,000 km millage and there were no hint of rust inside , just pristine clean.
Everthing still work on this bike.

Of course nobody rides on original NMH front hub on TF anymore maybe except some stubborn types.
Believe or not but this bike is offically still serviced by Light Electric Vehicles Transport company LEVT still in business and they provide full service toTF bikes including de-restricting software , rebuilding NMH hubs /which few choose to do for obvious reason/.
Switching to non-TF battery is very simple.
Beauty of TF is that it can be run on any 36V battery if you install simple jumper in console, nothing other mods are required.
E+ ebike made in the same city and state Dullas, Virginia is mechanically similar to TF but has differnt motor control alogarthem
TF uses sinusidal PWM scheme while E+ uses Space Vector PWM.
E+ is 3-phase design not so silky smooth like TF , also communication protocol is differnt on E+
E+ uses RS485 while TF uses I squareC protocol.
Look at the beauty of motor/controller built in/ but it is old type with non-water-proof connector which were swiftly replaced by manufacturer with Delhpi type automotive connectors fully water-proof.

 

[Lock]

Jump to about 1:03:00 in Justin's presentation on hub motors and TF is mentioned:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34972

 

[Ian]

Of course nobody rides on original NMH front hub on TF anymore maybe except some stubborn types.
Believe or not but this bike is offically still serviced by Light Electric Vehicles Transport company LEVT still in business and they provide full service toTF bikes including de-restricting software , rebuilding NMH hubs /which few choose to do for obvious reason/.
Switching to non-TF battery is very simple.
Beauty of TF is that it can be run on any 36V battery if you install simple jumper in console, nothing other mods are required.

Do you know what the uppermost voltage limit is on these motors/controllers? I have a 39v nominal pack I"d like to use with one and hot off the chargers the pack is 46.8v. From what I can garner from the TF forum that is close to the limit.

 

[mr.electric]

The most common outcome of a tidal force purchase is new battery, new controller new motor. Because the stock battery is likely dead and compatibility issues exsist for the proprietary motor controller.
Many people skipped the trouble of starting with a complete bike and just bought the beefy tidal force frames dirt cheap and added a complete ebike kit like bmc or 9c or Crystalyte. The frame is reinforced and has passages for wires to run through the top tube.
I can't remember where people were getting those frames but I know they were much less than $500 more like $50
As for the concept of making the stock motor controller work:
I would agree that it is very smooth having ridden one. I look for power level, price and reliability in an ebike. Smooth is not a major factor for me. I also drive a Honda Fit and don't care about the ride quality I could have had if I had gone with a used Jaguar or mercedes for the same price.

 

[blueb0ttle2]

Thanks very much. Justin's presentation warned of the drag one gets if one just pedals, without using the motor, and the tidal force is the worst of the motors he tested this way. Otherwise, he says that it is a smooth ride.
I am inferring that the tidal force is direct drive.
Anyways, the bike I spotted seems to be a good deal if it's just the batteries that are bad. That would be a strong bargaining point

 

[miro13car]

Again,
after switching to any 36V nominal battery EVERY Tidal Force will run even better than before if it run normally before switching,
controller is built in motor if you didn't noticed.
I have yet to see, read about any , I mean, any hint of problem with TF motor/controller so I don't know what you are talking about..
EXCEPTIONS:
Regen breaking works right away after starting ride not like with NMH original hub/after 10% discharge/
so depend what battery you are going to use .
But left brake lever does NOT activate regen breaking only right lever, so regen right after starting to ride is no problem at all to me.
I use LiFePo of course built with BMI cells rated 10C /I estimate they are rather more like 8C/ and charge this pack with real 10A SONEIL charger.
Usually fresh of the charge my pack voltage reads 41.8V - 42V
For sure TF will not accept more than 45V , I think max is 46V , you would have to dig on TF Google forum or just ask.

 

[miro13car]

bluebottle2,
I agree TF is hard to pedal just like many direct gearless hubs.
He says smooth ride? I rode all kind of ebikes , TF is superb smooth ride with no hint of cogging, controller is rump up so no wheeles here but acceleration is smooth and fast enough, not as fast as E+ system but fast.
It is first of all built for average rider for durability not braeking records for people who cherish silent powerful rides
If sombody offered me step-through TF for $500 I would jump and buy before somebody grab it especially with less than 5000miles on the clock..
But motor controller has ZERO problems , believe me I read close to hundred of posts on TF and never heard that any owner has a problem with TF motor controller.
As I said all TF NMH original hubs are dead right now used or not used.
Ask seller to send you CLOSE UP pictures of bike, of course it could have been abused .
Jumping under even 150lb rider+weight of bike down even 15cm curb is abuse to me on ebike which is not for DH riding.
What millage he claims on this step-through TF?

 

[blueb0ttle2]

Hey folks,
I decided not to go for this bike after reviewing my finances. I am posting a link to it in the for sale-used section of the forum.
It'd be nice to see one of these cracked open, so if anyone gets it, I want pics on this thread!

 

[miro13car]

I opened TF motor/controller at about 10,000km
and it was pristine clean -inside one big surface mount electronics board and very tidy soldering , quality connectors, pleasure to look at
this