What do you reckon your mpg equivalent is for your e-bike?

[NeilP]

Given the changed criteria where we have to include co$t of batteries into the mix...

Not changed..maybe mis understodd or mis-expalined when I typed the intiial post

Does that figure include the cost of connectors, the bus, and the revisions to the bus and connectors? Because these directly affect sag and efficiency. .

I suppose it includes what ever you have to replace each time you replace the pack. If you re use your old wiring then no I would nto expect it would

As I said before I woudl not consider adding insurance into the mix, since it is no way related to the cost of running a car and it changes from one person to the next, from one street to the next, wether the car is stored overnight on the street on in a garage etc.

I was trying to come to an average figure, in order to tell people who ask, in basic laymans terms (like an mpg equilavent) what it cost to run an e-bike. The cost I am trying to get can only ever be calculated, to my mind, if a bike has been built, ridden for a few years in that configuration, and then a pack has been replaced with a like for like pack.

In order for the intial post to be as brief and to the poitn as I could, I showed my calculations, and assumed that people reading it would get what I was askign and if they had doen similar given calculations along a similar vein, without it being spelt out.

Giving calculations on how they think it shoudl be calculated, means there is no comaprision at all. I sort of assumed that most of us on here would have been bright enough to have grasped that without it needing to be spelt out .

I should have spelt it out a lot more clearly, but as i said, I assumed that people would grasp what I was after, and be able to do calculations along the lines I had done, using their figures, so to come up with a figure that coudl be directly compared to my own, rather than use different calculatiosn and so arrive at a figure that can nto be compared to mine.


The general public who want a bike, don't wnat and won't be tinkering with batteries all the time. They want a bike with a pack they plug in and ride, and do this again and again til the battery is dead. They want to knwo how mcuh this is goign to cost them per mile. They don't care about our delevoplment costs and how many chargers we have gone through ..they won't be doing that. They just want to know what it cost to ride and how much the battery costs per mile of riding., Ok, so that is the second question..first one is the usual..Does it charge while you pedal it.

So what I am looking for is input from people liek myself that have buitl a bike, riddeen it with the same pack for 1-2-3 years and have clocked up a few miles, and then repalced the pack when it is finally dead. If you still have useful life in a particular pack and your efficeincy is still goign up as the battery cost is being spread over more and more miles..then your data, though interesting, is nto going to give any useful comparision, til the pack is dead and you have to replace it.

I think I have now explained myself fully..which i should have done in the first place but did not think it necessary as I just though people would follow my calculation without being explicitly asked to, since any other way would not create a figure that could be compared to mine...phew.. get it now?

 

[swbluto]

The problem is not that one doesn't get it, but disagrees with the methodology behind it. Obviously that's situationally dependent, and if you're abusing your packs (Obviously by not understanding how to optimally care and use them in the first place; hint, keeping them between 80-40% SOC optimizes total energy capacity over its lifespan.), then you deserve to have really high costs per mile. That's nobody's fault but your own.

 

[NeilP]

Well I don't think that between 460 to 480 cycles for a set of Nano Tech packs is too bad going on what the forecast fir them was.
Packs have not been below 75% DoD and never kept at full state of charge for longer than a few hours, always being charged just before use.

This thread is going nowhere now, I can see no one is able or prepared to just give a straight answer without injecting their own ideas, and thread goes off on tangent. Then other people chip in, not with answers relevant to the original question, but one of the tangents. This is why this,like so many forums, are cluttered with irrelevant posts.

This is the problem with Human nature and so so many forum discussions, not anyone in particular on this thread or forum, just life as well.

No point in continuing this further as it has become as discussion about methodology, and no one is prepared just to answer the question as asked.

I have unsubscribed.

 

[dogman dan]

I've been thinking maybe we should think about our batteries in terms of cost per Kwh or Ah.

I ride my cargo bike in two modes, depending on the jumper wire plugged, or unplugged in haul ass mode. As a result, cost per mile triples or more in haul ass mode.

As always, thinking in wh and cost per wh allows the best rational comparisons of dissimilar electric vehicles.

So apply to my new battery. In the charging discharging plan I expect 13 ah from a full discharge. About 675wh per cycle. Postulating 300 cycles, $1.16 per cycle, .17 cents per wh, 9 cents per ah. Plus one cent per ah for the electricity, if not less.

That's easy enough to keep in your head. Ten cents per ah to ride. How many miles that takes you varies by which bike I ride and how it's ridden.

Todays battery cost to go to wallmart was 40 cents. In the car, it would have been 2 bucks just for gas. But if I'd ridden fast, it would have cost a buck by bike.

If you want to consider cost per wh in mpg equivalent, then todays ride was at 5x the cars mpg, so call it 125 mpg. Moped ballpark, for a moped going 18 mph.

Had I hauled ass, the mpg equivalent would have been about what my moped got at 30 mph. 75 mpg.

 

[swbluto]

I've been thinking maybe we should think about our batteries in terms of cost per Kwh or Ah.

Agree, that's a pretty good metric. Far more comparable.

It's obvious to me that if you ride harder, your cost per mile goes up. One because more energy is expended per mile and the other one because the batteries are stressed more.

Also, if you buy batteries that are three times more expensive per wh, then that will obviously increase the cost per mile accordingly. It would be far more wise to put the same money towards buying the budget batteries and get three times the capacity. This will decrease the C rate decreasing the stress, it'll decrease the depth of discharge for a given ride thus increasing cycle life and it'd extend range.

Anyway, to maximize the total energy capacity over the battery's lifespan, the Chevy Volt team keeps the lithium battery between 80% and 40% SOC. I think it might be wise to use their research for our benefit...

It's obvious to me that the original poster wanted to use what his friend uses (Because, birds of a feather flock together) and was trying to find every excuse in the book to attack electric technology. It seems pretty obvious to me he was trying to find justification for his feelings using whatever angle he could find.

Reason is the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them

My advice to the OP: Don't care about rationalizing your feelings! Just use your gassy vehicles if you wanna. Don't need to defend yourself to us. Just do it!

 

[NeilP]

I know I unsubscribed, but I happened to have a look in.

It's obvious to me that the original poster wanted to use what his friend uses (Because, birds of a feather flock together) and was trying to find every excuse in the book to attack electric technology. It seems pretty obvious to me he was trying to find justification for his feelings using whatever angle he could find.

What a load of utter bollocks...Not attacking anything, especially my e-bike, and electric technology. But now I am on that attack due to your attack on me and your lack of reading or understanding of my post.


If you care to go back through any of my posts since being a member here, you will see I have never attacked anyone personally before, but have had a rant about what you have just done...Not reading properly...or if you have read and are not clear, why not say so ?

See this thread.



To spell it out in big so you can see it I want a figure that the every day person can easily relate to and compare.

Costs cost per Kwh or Ah or anything else you fancy can be understood by us her on the forum..but you give that to Joe Bloggs in the street that does not know the what a Watt or amp or kWh is and you have told them nothing. Tell them that at current prices, ( including putting money aside to replace the battery ) it works out at about 60 mpg..or 80 or 100 or what ever your bike does is a figure they easily understand and can compare to their current costs.

It is a comparison, so you have to compare like with like. if they know that their current motorcycle vehicle does 60 mpg, and a e-bikes does (effectively) 80 mpg..but there is no insurance costs, less maintenance etc etc, they are going to be won over. You can not include an insurance cost in a running figure for a car or motorbike as exactly the same vehicle driven by a different person/ different aga and driving /conviction history, in a differnet location ( city/country etc), and parking in a different place can all give wildely different insurance costs..but it can be pointed out that you do not have to pay them on an e-bike. So for a 'run of the mill' 36-48 volt e-bike it is very likely to be better value than a petrol powered motorcycle...though in my case or any of us that run 80-130 volt plus bikes at high power the costs may not be so good.

My advice to the OP: Don't care about rationalizing your feelings! Just use your gassy vehicles if you wanna. Don't need to defend yourself to us. Just do it!

I never said anything of the sort !!!

I have three cars, three tractors, two motorbikes..none insured. Not used my car or motorbike for three years now, just can't bear to sell them. If I need a vehicle for towing trailers, to dump scrap at the recycling centre I can borrow many vehicles so do not feel the need to run one myself.

I am up to 4 different e-bikes now..plus help maintain at least another 4 or 5 for various people, and am trying to get more people in to them. And as I already said in previous posts, they all want to compare the cost of running them to WHAT THEY KNOW.



grrrrr

realy wound up now

 

[veloman]

I tell people that I get 30miles on a charge and it costs $0.05 to recharge.
battery cost is not factored in.

 

[swbluto]

I know I unsubscribed, but I happened to have a look in.

It's obvious to me that the original poster wanted to use what his friend uses (Because, birds of a feather flock together) and was trying to find every excuse in the book to attack electric technology. It seems pretty obvious to me he was trying to find justification for his feelings using whatever angle he could find.

What a load of utter bollocks...Not attacking anything, especially my e-bike, and electric technology. But now I am on that attack due to your attack on me and your lack of reading or understanding of my post.


If you care to go back through any of my posts since being a member here, you will see I have never attacked anyone personally before, but have had a rant about what you have just done...Not reading properly...or if you have read and are not clear, why not say so ?

See this thread.



To spell it out in big so you can see it I want a figure that the every day person can easily relate to and compare.

Costs cost per Kwh or Ah or anything else you fancy can be understood by us her on the forum..but you give that to Joe Bloggs in the street that does not know the what a Watt or amp or kWh is and you have told them nothing. Tell them that at current prices, ( including putting money aside to replace the battery ) it works out at about 60 mpg..or 80 or 100 or what ever your bike does is a figure they easily understand and can compare to their current costs.

It is a comparison, so you have to compare like with like. if they know that their current motorcycle vehicle does 60 mpg, and a e-bikes does (effectively) 80 mpg..but there is no insurance costs, less maintenance etc etc, they are going to be won over. You can not include an insurance cost in a running figure for a car or motorbike as exactly the same vehicle driven by a different person/ different aga and driving /conviction history, in a differnet location ( city/country etc), and parking in a different place can all give wildely different insurance costs..but it can be pointed out that you do not have to pay them on an e-bike. So for a 'run of the mill' 36-48 volt e-bike it is very likely to be better value than a petrol powered motorcycle...though in my case or any of us that run 80-130 volt plus bikes at high power the costs may not be so good.

My advice to the OP: Don't care about rationalizing your feelings! Just use your gassy vehicles if you wanna. Don't need to defend yourself to us. Just do it!

I never said anything of the sort !!!

I have three cars, three tractors, two motorbikes..none insured. Not used my car or motorbike for three years now, just can't bear to sell them. If I need a vehicle for towing trailers, to dump scrap at the recycling centre I can borrow many vehicles so do not feel the need to run one myself.

I am up to 4 different e-bikes now..plus help maintain at least another 4 or 5 for various people, and am trying to get more people in to them. And as I already said in previous posts, they all want to compare the cost of running them to WHAT THEY KNOW.



grrrrr

realy wound up now

Just playing with you.

Still, my advice is mucho excellento for just about anyone who's seeking to minimize $/mi.

 

[swbluto]

cos I'm a single goobery nerd, and cos I feel like I'm sticking it to The Man - wherever he may be.

You may recognize The Man by these signs:

I present to you the oil industry's infrastructure and their owners. The last one is the wealthiest person of NYC, wealth jumped from 12 bil to 44 bil since 2008, coincidentally the same couple of years that gasoline prices have been highest on record. (He's not the only one though, so don't blame him. Speculative capital comprises over 50% of the oil markets currently and approximately 31 billion barrels are pumped out of the ground every year, and at $100/barrel, at least $300 billion is pumped into the oil markets every year. Add in refinery profits and supply line profits and it's probably closer to $400-500 billion for all fuels (Though, I don't really know))

 

[e-beach]

I tell people that I get 30miles on a charge and it costs $0.05 to recharge.

Funny...that is what I tell them also.. ..although, the way I ride, I usually only around 20 miles on a charge but telling them I can go "20 miles on 3.3 cents" doesn't seem roll off the tongue as well as "my bike goes 30 miles on a nickel's worth of electricity" Then I ask, "how much does it cost you to drive your car 30 miles?" And I wait for that "look" on their face. :lol:

 

[The fingers]

If I drive my truck 20 miles to work and back, at 10 mpg and $4 a gallon thats eight bucks.
If I ride the bike it costs about 25 cents to go the same distance, but I charge at work; so let us say 15 cents comes out of my pocket to go the 20 miles.Thus it probably costs roughly 50 times more to drive. That comes out to 500 mpg.
If it really costs a penny a mile on the bike, verses 40 cents a mile in the truck; big whoop!
If I stop and retrieve pennies as road kill that I see along the way; I can easliy get a rebate of about one fifth.
The big problem is that at night, well worn road kill pennies made from zinc shine amazingly like dimes. :lol: