What E-Bike Controllers work with RC Motors ?

[ScooterMan101]

What have you used successfully with Astro, or any other , RC motor ?

1) Typical Infineon or Kungteng Controller and just not use the hall sensor plug on the controller ?
Or
2) Sensor-less Controller ? What make and Model ?

3) What display have you used ?
to see what your amp and watt draw is .

 

[macribs]

If you start by calculating ERPM it will make your job more easy. ERPM = Pole pairs X max rpm
Ie adaptto controllers can do 60-70 000 eRPM. Kelly got high speed versions that can do iirc 120 000 eRPM. Many controllers top out at around 20-40 000 eRPM. Hi speed motors like RC motors might got higher eRPM.

Afaik best success with Astro motors are the castle creation HV-80 and Hv-160.

From memory astro's are 8 pole motors so 4 pole pair. They top out at 10 000 RPM. So should be 40.000 eRPM.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Will take me quite a while to learn all this math,

In the meantime ... it looks like more and more people are using the newer .. VESC , for Their controller of choice .

and

I might not go with Astro, there are other companies making RC Motors, for my first experiment I could / probably will , buy a cheaper RC Motor , as long as it has bearings that are rated toward the better number of the rating number of bearings.
and if the Magnets are made well enough.

Who is making the slowest turning RC Motor's at this time ?

I read somewhere that the KV number is not the only indication of how many RPM's the motor turns per volt.

Calculating is getting more complicated the further I research.

If you start by calculating ERPM it will make your job more easy. ERPM = Pole pairs X max rpm
Ie adaptto controllers can do 60-70 000 eRPM. Kelly got high speed versions that can do iirc 120 000 eRPM. Many controllers top out at around 20-40 000 eRPM. Hi speed motors like RC motors might got higher eRPM.

Afaik best success with Astro motors are the castle creation HV-80 and Hv-160.

From memory astro's are 8 pole motors so 4 pole pair. They top out at 10 000 RPM. So should be 40.000 eRPM.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Here is the description of my Controller, Except I was sent the same spec'ed controller without the hall sensor wires / plug.
Don't see the max erpm rating there.

>

6 FET IRFB4110 Infineon Sensored Controller for 36V to 72V battery packs and motors with hall sensors.

Includes following functions as standard (we strongly recommend our matching Throttle are also purchased to make use of all functions and for plug and play simplicity:

Throttle connection with Integrated push button cruise, separate 3 speed connection (Full and Half Twist include integrated 3Sp and Cruise, Thumb Throttle is not integrated, but still includes all the same functionality with appropriate parts
Correctly Connected Cycle Analyst plug, with Shunt Value Marked on case for CA Shunt calibration
Programming header for simple programming flash via USB program cable (program cable is an optional extra)
E-brake with Motor kill and Regen
Jumper to select 36-60V or 72V operation
Remote low power ignition switch connection (bar mounted power switch available). Zero current drain when low power switch is powered off, so not necesary to disconnect when not in use, avoiding the sparks and damage that the uncontrolled current surge can cause
Fully programmable using the optional USB program cable. The following functions/parameters can be modified:

Battery and Phase current (inferred, not measured) can be independently adjusted
Low Voltage Cut
High Voltage Cut, or regen Voltage Limit
3 programmable speed settings
Various Pedal Assist and Re-Gen braking paramters can be adjusted
Specification:

6pcs of Genuine IRFB4110 Mosfets. Just about the best 100V TO-220 Mosfet available
100V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 90V
36-72V operation, 90V max (Jumper to select 60V plus)
25A Current Limit
2.5mm2 (Almost 13AWG) High Temperature Silicone wires used on Phase and Supply cables
Dimension: 125 * 65 * 35mm
Weight: 0.28kg

 

[Dauntless]

Those RC motors aren't the hot topic they used to be. While there's the Alien controller that at least seems more durable than the run of the mill RC controller, the consensus was to abandon them and use a more solid ebike controller because it was made to power the motor while it was under load and not to make the free spinning propeller go as fast as possible. Some swore off the RC motors altogether, others like myself became timid and still have some motors laying around that we realize will require special handling and we're not sure what we'll do with them. (Would you believe I bought 6 48v 250kv motors because they were 6500w at $50 each? Meaning without a thought to just what it would take to actually USE them for something.)

Astro 3220, you need a sensorless controller, I'd say let's go AT LEAST 120amps, eh? http://kellycontroller.com/ksl4815024v-48v150asensorless-bldc-controller-p-661.html There sure were a lot of people saying they had no complaints about their Kelly's. I just remind you that you're still joining an experiment when you go with an RC motor on your bike.

 

[macribs]

Just would like to add that people have successfully added hall sensors or optical hall sensors to various RC motors. As for Astro I read here on ES the other day that Astro used to have hall as an a option. If you contact them they might do you one custom with halls?

Lets not forget Joby. Another high quality motor manufacturer. Does custom work as well. High power, and a little high priced.
Have you checked out Torcman motors? (torcman.de) They have at least one motor that does not need jack shaft, only single reduction in the form of sprocket and chain. There was a qulbix raptor build here using torcman.

Look at Revolt. On paper it looks like the dream of any e-biker. Then look at what people here in ES experience with those motors. In plain, they are cheap to buy and there are good reason for their price point. Unbalanced, poor windings, poor halls.

There are other brands too, of course. But so far it seems to be truth to that old saying. Quality will cost you and quantity is cheap.


Regarding bearing quality, magnet quality or rather overall quality for RC motor I thing you will be hard pressed to find options that surpasses Astro. Astro uses only hi quality parts, selected for ie higher temperature withstanding. Look at their magnets, Astro uses samarium-cobalt magnets. SmCo magnets costs much more then standard magnets used in BLDC motors, but are also higher quality. Stronger then neodymium magnets. All parts in Astro motors are selected to tolerate 200 degrees Celsius. Check with some of the astro builders here to see if they feel that money was well spend. Even their bearings are long lasting high quality.

 

[eTim]

I ordered a VESC to use with my sensor less BLDC. The VESC is open source and you can use a computer to configure it in the way you want with the limits you want.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Dauntless,

I have much studying to do in regards about RC motors, perhaps they are no longer a hot topic , but there are newer ones available now since Drones are getting bigger all the time. so
perhaps now there are ones more suited for e-bike applications.
I have heard about the various controllers including the cheep H.K. ones , Now looking at the VESC.


Macribs,

Looking into all those will take up allot of time, I will do it, thanks for those referrals, Had not heard of Joby or Torcman before. But then again I am new to looking into RC Motors.
It will take quite a bit of time to just find where to look on the torcman website do you know which motor you are referring to on the torcman website ? , Astro was well regarded, probably still is , However are there not newer motors out on the market now ? , like the KDE, Have you heard of / researched the KDE Direct motors, they seem to be very well regarded and they look to be very well made . ( trying to stay under $ 200 at this time for the motor since there will be controller costs, gear reduction, etc. )

I Would like to see a side by side of compairable Astro and KDE Direct and Torcman , and Joby , Low KV / and under the $ 200 dollar mark, Motors .


eTim,

I first saw a VESC mentioned a few months back, now the more I look into them the more I would regard it to be the , One Controller that I would use. Good Choice ,
And looking forward to your project, although I want to do mine a little different , I want to drive/ use all the 9 gears on the back wheel, since I live right next to mountains,
and need the best and lowest gearing for the steep , and long , grades I want to go up. Just think of living in parts of Switzerland, the Alp's in France , etc.

 

[macribs]

I will look up that torcman tomorrow. There are various other high performance RC motors that might suit your need too, like alienpower and several more that I can't remember. Best would be to look around the forum or do a google. The VESC seems interesting.

 

[ScooterMan101]

KDE Direct looks like it has a High Quality Motor that is only 220 KV

https://www.kdedirect.com/products/kde5215xf-220

At $ 200 and with such high quality in the bearings ( ABEC 7 rating ) , the magnets, the way the magnets are machined, etc,
I wonder if it is a better price , per quality than the other's usually used in the not to distance past, and what is usually listed here
like Astro, Alien Power, etc. .

I will look up that torcman tomorrow. There are various other high performance RC motors that might suit your need too, like alienpower and several more that I can't remember. Best would be to look around the forum or do a google. The VESC seems interesting.

 

[macribs]

The KDE motors got .2 laminations thickness, a blower fan and three bearings. I like that. They list high temp copper and wires but does not mention the most important part, the magnets. If they used traditional magnets the high temp of copper is moot, as the magnets will be what sets max temp for motor. Maybe email them and ask what kind of magnets they uses?

Is the 200$ KDE motor better then 300$ alienpower or 415$ astromotor? Well if something seems to good to be true, it usually is.

That being said, at 200$ you should just try out the KDE motor. If the motor is good, then hey great deal. It does have 3 bearings, and a blower fan. With Kv of 220 it means you will have max rpm of 11.088 @50,4/12s hot of the charger. That gives you Erpm of 133 056. With such a high Erpm motor will be picky on controllers, and finding regular controllers that work like Kelly, Sabvaton, Adaptto et.al will be tough,but any ESC should work just fine. The high Erpm does mean you will need additional reduction, like ie a jackshaft.

Maybe if you search various forums you can find some honest reviews of the motor?

 

[ScooterMan101]

Perhaps usually ... but not always .

Here is a link to a review on the KDE / and a couple of others. I link to video 4 if you do not want to go through all 4 video's .
Video part 2 covers the bearings,
and
Video part 3 gets to Reviewing the Magnets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk596mMHgBg

Is the 200$ KDE motor better then 300$ alienpower or 415$ astromotor? Well if something seems to good to be true, it usually is.


Maybe if you search various forums you can find some honest reviews of the motor?

 

[macribs]

I watched all 4 of those videos

Seems a lot of thought went into the KDE direct motors. Quality parts used. Great lamintations at .2. Great fan as well as a great back iron for the magnets.The only thing I was not impressed with was the use of neodymium magnets rather then more expensive samarium cobalt as the Sa-Co magnets takes almost 1.5 times more heat and has 120-130% higher curie temperature. That means the magnets are the limiting factor when it comes to heat. Which is really a bit sad as the KDE team has put so much effort into their motors, if they had sa-co magnets they would easily handle temps way past 200, probably 250 celsius.

Neodymium is still a good choice, and they can take heat up to 180 degrees celsius so not the top of the line choice for magnets in KDE direct motors but still decent and probably better magnet choice overall then most of its competitors.

Yeah I will say I was impressed by the hardware choices KDE made, as well as the assembly and the labor that went into those motors.

Look forward to see your build progress.

 

[ScooterMan101]

I have found a good enough quality Motor at a reasonable price , KDE Direct,
and a good controller VESC sold by different vendors.

My RC Mid-Drive is now stalled because of the following reasons.

I have to keep it simple and lower cost.
Because I do not own a machine shop, or work at a machine shop where I would do work after work hours ,
A gearbox is just not doable for me. Or even machine parts to make brackets , jackshaft, pully's , etc.

Add to that , Since most of my bikes are Pressfit type Bearings, ( BB30 Etc . ) I would have to make a thin freewheel that fits onto the crankset using custom machined spider to bolt onto the existing BCD of that/any Modern Crankset, I Can't do that myself, or afford a Machinist working in existing California Business Climate ( High Taxes and High Shop Rent ) to do it .

So far no commercial Bicycle Parts Mfg . is making a freewheel/chainring for Modern 2 Piece Cranksets .

So far no one on E.S. that makes reduction drives for RC motors has shown interest in making , a Freewheel that bolts onto a Modern 2 Piece Crankset, .... So Far, Hopefully someone will realize that that is a part that is in more need than some would think.

who is ready to make more simple reduction drives for RC Motors ? ( I have not found anyone ... yet )

So I my RC Motor Mid-Drive build is on hold .

Look forward to see your build progress.