What is the HIGHEST legal power rating?

[safe]

Okay folks... there are 50 states in the US and there are hundreds of countries in the world. In what part of the world is the HIGHEST legal power rating for an electric bike?

I want the ACTUAL law and it's specification. If the law does not set any limit (leaves it up to the owner) then it doesn't count. I want to see an actual public "acceptance" of a high power limit.

 

[safe]

The Missouri Law:

"...a motor with a cylinder capacity of not more than fifty (50) cubic centimeters, which produces less than three (3) gross brake horsepower."

That translates to 2238 Watts.

Can ANYONE point to a law that defines a higher power rating than that?

(am I actually living in the state with the highest rating?)

 

[knightmb]

That's the highest I've ever seen. My state doesn't have a direct definition of the limit of power, only that you must be on a bicycle (pedals), must have a valid driver's license, must wear a helmet, and be of the age of 18 or greater. If you are under 18, you must complete a minor affidavit to which your legal guardians (parents, etc) are responsible for you. Also, you can only ride during daylight hours and no more than 7 mile radius from your home is allowed.

This state has close to what you wanted in that minors are restricted and adults can (within reason) do a lot more. I'll go dig up the e-mail again, but I asked the DMV this same question and go a very straight forward that adults can go as fast as they want as long as it's within the same laws that a vehicle must follow (speed limit, stoplights, etc)

So if your e-bike can do 80 mph, then as long as you don't speed, cause traffic accidents by cutting off vehicles, stop at stoplights, stop signs, etc. then there is no reason for a cop to pull you over. I'm often doing 30 to 40 mph all around where I live. I have police go by me all the time, never blink at my bike. My next NiMH upgrade is going to jump my speed up quite a bit more, so instead of maxing at 37 mph, I'll be closer to 45 to 50 mph which is well above many of the speed limits where I live (most are 40 mph tops)

It makes me laugh to think I'm going to have to follow the speed limit on my e-bike to avoid a speeding ticket. I can hear the judge laughing now.

To top it off, there are some areas around where I live that have hills that are so steep that many riders in my bike club have gotten speeding tickets on their non-motorized bike because the long steep hill easily allows a 45 mph coast on a 35 mph road. They all lost in court too, because even bicycles must follow the speed limit.

 

[safe]

...must have a valid driver's license, must wear a helmet, and be of the age of 18 or greater.

That's the way the laws should be. If you already can drive a car you should be able to ride a powerful electric bike up to some size like a few horsepower. But if you are only 12 years old you should probably be restricted to less than 750 watts. In my opinion of course...

Is Missouri REALLY the land with the highest limit?

And I'm talking about sticking to a 750 Watts, when I could run 2238 Watts and be able to actually say I'm "legal"? (makes for two separate bike projects I guess)

 

[TylerDurden]

If you already can drive a car you should be able to ride a powerful electric bike up to some size like a few horsepower.

That would rightly be classified as a motorcycle, and riders would rightly be required to register, insure and be endorsed to operate as such.

Putting pedals on a hog doesn't make it a moped.

Laws are in place to protect public safety, not to create a market niche. The general public can't and shouldn't be expected to manage the operation of a motor vehicle on public roadways, without ensuring the vehicle and the operator are fit for safe operation.

example:

Notice to Purchasers & Riders of Go-Peds and Other Motorized Scooters
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that, in the City of Madison Heights, a "Go-Ped or other Motorized Scooter, hereinafter collectively referred to as a "Scooter," whether electric or gasoline powered, may ONLY be operated on private property and it is ILLEGAL FOR ANYONE TO OPERATE A SCOOTER ON PUBLIC HIGHWAYS, STREETS, SIDEWALKS OR BIKE PATHS ("PUBLIC PROPERTY") IN THE CITY AND FAILURE TO OBEY THIS LAW WILL SUBJECT THE OPERATOR TO TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS (BOTH CRIMINAL AND CIVIL) AND RESULT IN THE IMPOUNDMENT OF THE SCOOTER BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. This prohibition excludes a properly equipped and operated Moped, as that term is defined in Michigan Compiled Law ("MCL") 257.32b et seq. SINCE MOST SCOOTERS FAIL TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS FOR A PROPERLY EQUIPPED MOPED, THEY ARE PROHIBITED FROM BEING OPERATED ON PUBLIC HIGHWAYS, STREETS, SIDEWALKS OR BIKE PATHS IN THE CITY.

 

[safe]

The national 750 Watt law is supposed to supersede local laws as far as lawsuits, but it can't override local street laws. So it's a "universal" truth that a 750 Watt bike is defined as an true "electric bicycle" in every state of the country, but you could still be in conflict in some areas. Places like Boulder Colorado and your "City of Madison Heights" seem to have some old laws on the books that conflict with the national law. Generally speaking if you were in court the fact that you can point to the national law will give you an "out" that will force the judge to drop the case. So there are two laws is place... the law is a confusing place that's for sure.

As a basic rule if you are in America you can own a 750 Watt electric bike and you can "defend yourself" in court with it. That's how this law was designed... to "protect" the rights of the 750 Watt electric bike. The law is like a battlefield with different sides fighting each other all the time. Naive people think the "police" and the "law" are a parental figure like thing, but in reality it's in a constant state of being rewritten. So if people really want high powered electric bikes they NEED to become politically active and "push" to change things. ("de facto" means that unless you change "the facts" as they are things will stay the same and become the "status quo", so the laws are getting things "set up" so that the 750 Watt limit will become the "status quo")

President Bush "granted" the 750 Watt electric bike law as a "shot across the bow" of the chaos that existed before it. We now have the first clear definition of what is an "electric bike" and it will likely be the foundation for all future laws. History has shown that the states usually begin by passing their own laws and then over time the federal government sort of looks at what they've done and tries to piece together a national law that accomodates the general wishes of the states. So we will see more federal action as time goes on. If the electric bike becomes a big part of an "energy solution" then the federal governmnet will DEFINITELY take a stronger role.

It's the same as it ever was.. the same as it ever was... the same as it ever was...

Note: It's very likely that in places that are more restrictive than the 750 Watt law that those areas will be forced to change. Places with lax laws like Missouri will likely remain lax because the police always have the option to enforce LESS rather than MORE. Excessive enforcement in the case of laws that conflict tend to fall on the side of stopping the enforcement. The 750 Watt law should "block" enforcement of sub-750 Watt areas if challenged.

 

[xyster]

You're just never going to get it, are you safe? There is no such national law. The public law you keep citing defines ebikes solely for the purposes of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

For the third time now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws
"In the United States of America, Congress has defined a low-speed electric bicycle as any bicycle or tricycle with fully operable pedals, an electric motor not exceeding 750W of power and a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour (equivalent to the Canadian 32km/h). An electric bike or trike that meets these limitations is regarded as a bicycle [8] by Public Law 107-319.[9] This Law defines electric bicycles only for the purpose of Consumer Product Safety and does not allow for their use on roads. It is a safety criteria that manufacturers should use in building electric bicycles, which helps protect manufacturers from the threat of lawsuits from within states that attempt to legislate more stringent safety requirements.

These are Federal regulations that put control of monitoring the safety of electric bicycles into the hands of the Consumer Products Safety Commission (CPSC), which supersede any state law that is more stringent, but only regarding safety equipment required on electric bicycles and not regarding whether electric bicycles are street legal. The states still decide what vehicles are allowed to use the roads in their state."

 

[TylerDurden]

"Generally speaking if you were in court the fact that you can point to the national law will give you an "out" that will force the judge to drop the case. "


Depends on what kind of case, Esquire...

Ownership?
Operation?
Sales?
Defective/unsafe product?

 

[safe]

The states still decide what vehicles are allowed to use the roads in their state.

My stepfather was a lawyer that actually was part of a landmark Supreme Court decision where some of his writings were included into the final Supreme Court law. (I'd rather not discuss the case because I'm actually not in favor of it's implications)

What I learned from him (my mother remarrried late in life so I didn't grow up with the guy) was the way that the law works and how they think. When they place in a "disclaimer" like that it's so that they don't create an "uproar" about the federal laws usurping the rights of the state laws. The federal government always moves to take more power slowly and cautiously. When you are an "insider" to the legal mind you can "read between the lines" what is really going on. It's a little like the "Wizard of Oz" where most people get lost in the "image" of the law and they don't really see the underlying motivations.

This national law is only the FIRST STEP towards bringing the electric bike towards a "standard". There will be more to follow.

Trust me guys... this is how the law works... they never do it all at once and prefer to "slip" things through when no one is looking. Politics is a "game" of treachery much of the time and lawyers are skilled in the art of manipulation.

I'm saying that unless people get ACTIVE politically to alter the "definition" that is being presented that one day what is being applied to the manufacturer as a "standard" will eventually be applied to the end user. However, it's also likely that bikes built before a certain date would still be allowed to be legal because they always "grandfather" the old stuff. It's like when they placed "smog control" on the automobile... the old cars were made exempt.

Look again at Motorcycle Road Racing as an example. The two stroke has been banned from the street for over 10 years and yet it's only this year that MotoGP (F1) has finally gotten around to banning two strokes. In the 125cc and 250cc classes they still are letting that go on a little longer, but eventually even those areas will probably get banned. Legal bodies work slowly and deliberately. If you want to shape the future you need to start NOW and not expect change to happen for a decade or more. Slow and steady pressure is what changes legal bodies.

 

[Matt Gruber]

xyster
ANYWHERE A STATE ALLOWS BICYCLES,
HR727 ALLOWS EBIKES

Now, u are correct WHERE bicycles are prohibited, like
ON THE NJ TURNPIKE BIKES ARE NOT ALLOWED
AND HR727 DOES NOT OVER RULE.

IT IS SPURIOUS TO SUGGEST STATES WILL PROHIBIT BICYCLES JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO.

 

[xyster]

My stepfather was a lawyer

Strange... his attorney-DNA seems to have gotten into you somehow.
I'm thinking attorney-DNA is like an infectious virus that whenever we come in contact with an attorney, rewrites our genetic code so we act more attorney-like. This would explain why there are dense and spreading foci of attorneys located in the USA.

 

[safe]

Strange... his attorney-DNA seems to have gotten into you somehow.

It's a nasty infection. But it's true, once you start to "think" like a lawyer you see the world as they do and it changes you.

That's why my ADVICE to all is that if there is going to be a "shift in momentum" that it is easiest done EARLY rather than LATE. When the "last minute" comes and a ban comes down on bikes over 750 watts it will be too late.

PRO-ACTIVE efforts can change the world... slowly...

 

[safe]

xyster
ANYWHERE A STATE ALLOWS BICYCLES,
HR727 ALLOWS EBIKES

Exactly. The national law GUARANTEES that 750 Watt electric bikes cannot be DISCRIMINATED against from among other bicycles. If a bike can ride someplace then a 750 Watt electric bike can also ride there or else the "feds" will back you up in court if there is a dispute.

 

[xyster]

Matt Gruber wrote:
xyster
ANYWHERE A STATE ALLOWS BICYCLES,
HR727 ALLOWS EBIKES


Arrow Exactly. The national law GUARANTEES that 750 Watt electric bikes cannot be DISCRIMINATED against from among other bicycles. If a bike can ride someplace then a 750 Watt electric bike can also ride there or else the "feds" will back you up in court if there is a dispute.

So then how is it, guys, states like New York don't allow ebikes on "their" roads at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#New_York

New York

Electric motor assisted bicycles have been banned in the State of New York and are not permitted for on-road use.[12]

The New York State DMV's "Frequently Asked Questions" website states:

"Motor-assisted Bicycle - a bicycle to which a small motor is attached. A motor-assisted bicycle does not qualify for a registration as a motorcycle, moped or ATV and does not have the same equipment."

It continues,

"These devices are not allowed on any street, highway, parking lot, sidewalk or other area that allows public motor vehicle traffic. You are subject to arrest if you operate one of these motorized vehicles and do not have a registration, driver license, inspection, insurance or correct equipment. The DMV can not provide any information about operation of these devices on private property. Contact the local authorities and property owners."

Answer: that public law you keep citing does not disallow "discrimination" between the states, and defines an ebike only for purposes related to safety equipment.

 

[Matt Gruber]

xy
that old NY law has been OVERTURNED
as it violated HR727
AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF HOW HR727 WORKS

 

[Lowell]

Pellet guns over 500fps are banned in Canada (otherwise they are classed the same as firearms) but that doesn't seem to stop people from having them. Unless the gun is used to commit a crime, there's no way a fed is going to confiscate your gun and send it to the lab for testing.

Another example. There's a strech of 4 lane, center divided road near my place that has a reduced speed limit of 30km/h. It's not a school zone, there are no crosswalks, no intersections, and not even any business or houses on either side. The only reason I can think of it being 30km/h is to create speeding ticket revenue, because the average speed through there seems to be about 60km/h. The only person I've seen drive 30km/h there when there wasn't a speed trap, was a copy I was following on my bike. :lol:

That makes 99% of the people that drive along that road lawbreakers. The point is that the government can rubber stamp anything it wants, but it doesn't mean the public will follow along like sheep.

 

[Matt Gruber]

xy
that old NY law has been OVERTURNED
as it violated HR727
AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF HOW HR727 WORKS

WORTH REPEATING

 

[xyster]

xy
that old NY law has been OVERTURNED

No it hasn't. The federal public law does not address ebike legality.
Ask all the angry NY ebikers or pedicabs w/electric motors who've been banned, ticketed, etc.

 

[TylerDurden]

The national law GUARANTEES that 750 Watt electric bikes cannot be DISCRIMINATED against from among other bicycles. If a bike can ride someplace then a 750 Watt electric bike can also ride there or else the "feds" will back you up in court if there is a dispute.

False.

hr727 is about commerce, not transportation:

H.R.727
Title: To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act.


State and local gvts can restrict the operation of any vehicle within their jurisdiction, and make distinctions within classes of vehicles at will.

 

[Matt Gruber]

xy
that old NY law has been OVERTURNED

No it hasn't. The federal public law does not address ebike legality.
Ask all the angry NY ebikers or pedicabs w/electric motors who've been banned, ticketed, etc.

THEY HAVE TO CARRY A COPY OF THE NEW LAW WITH THEM. COPS LIKE U MAY BE IGNORANT OF THE CHANGE

 

[xyster]

Current and straight from the NY DMV:
http://tinyurl.com/yog3ft
" Question
Do I need to register a motorized scooter, a go-kart, a mini-bike, a dirt bike, a motor-assisted bicycle, a moped, or an ATV?
Answer
Motorized Scooters, Go-Karts, Mini-Bikes, Dirt Bikes and Motor-assisted Bicycles

You cannot register any of these motorized devices in NYS. You cannot operate these devices on sidewalks, public streets or highways in NYS. These devices are classified as motor vehicles, but the devices do not have the correct equipment or design to operate on roadways. If you operate an unregistered motor vehicle on a street or a highway in NYS, law enforcement officials can arrest you and give you a ticket for the violation of several traffic laws. The DMV web site has more information about motorized devices."

 

[Lowell]

xy
that old NY law has been OVERTURNED

No it hasn't. The federal public law does not address ebike legality.
Ask all the angry NY ebikers or pedicabs w/electric motors who've been banned, ticketed, etc.

Sucks to live in NY, but I bet you could get by with a small hub motor and batteries, wires and speed controller well hidden.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Current and straight from the NY DMV:
http://tinyurl.com/yog3ft
" Question
Do I need to register a motorized scooter, a go-kart, a mini-bike, a dirt bike, a motor-assisted bicycle, a moped, or an ATV?
Answer
Motorized Scooters, Go-Karts, Mini-Bikes, Dirt Bikes and Motor-assisted Bicycles

You cannot register any of these motorized devices in NYS. You cannot operate these devices on sidewalks, public streets or highways in NYS. These devices are classified as motor vehicles, but the devices do not have the correct equipment or design to operate on roadways. If you operate an unregistered motor vehicle on a street or a highway in NYS, law enforcement officials can arrest you and give you a ticket for the violation of several traffic laws. The DMV web site has more information about motorized devices."

EXCELLENT! YOU PROVE MY POINT.
ELECTRIC ASSISTED ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THAT BECAUSE NYS DEFINES MOTOR ASSISTED AS GAS MOTOR ASSISTED, NOT ELECTRIC. An electric bicycle is exempt, the same as a regular bicycle

 

[Lowell]

From Answers.com. Dunno how old it is:


A00071: Proposed Bill to Allow Use of Electric Bicycles in New York
(please note, this bill has NOT YET been passed into law!)

A00071 Memo:



TITLE OF BILL: An act to amend the vehicle and traffic law, in relation to the definition of electric assisted bicycle

 

[safe]

A00071: Proposed Bill to Allow Use of Electric Bicycles in New York
(please note, this bill has NOT YET been passed into law!)

A00071 Memo:

TITLE OF BILL: An act to amend the vehicle and traffic law, in relation to the definition of electric assisted bicycle

You are seeing how "the system" works with this. Places like NY once held strong AGAINST electric bikes and now the pressure is AGAINST NY.

Metaphorically it's like a stone has been dropped in the pond. As the ripples reverberate outward it will "upset" the status quo everywhere, but it will all take time.

"The system" has a "process" that works very slowly. If you can "steer" the "process" in a gentle but persistant manner then you can guide the course of it's progression.

The first "cornerstone" law for the electric bike is the national one. This is the FIRST TIME the "feds" got involved and they did so to RESOLVE disputes between states that had conflicting laws on the books that sometimes went back years before the electric bike was an active area of research. The national law was done out of SYMPATHY towards the electric bike... it was to ENCOURAGE it's advancement and squash disputes that were blocking it.

The "cornerstone" is set at 750 Watts.

The real question becomes:

"Can the electric bike enthusiast handle being 'civilized'?"

Can he accept the pressure to conform?

Rebellion provokes a "crackdown", but activism can guide the future so that one feels less of a need to rebel in the first place.

Silence gives more power to the trends as they exist already...