What is the ultimate determinant of the cost of electricty?

[swbluto]

Talking about in the good old United States where coal is the typical cheapest form of electricity generation (And makes up a good portion of the electricity), what ultimately determines the price of electricity? One might answer that it'd be linked to the price of coal as coal is the cheapest form of electricity generation in most places in the US, but what determines the price of coal? What costs are involved in coal's extraction? Is it mostly fuel costs for running the machinery and is this powered by petrol or is mostly powered by electricity generated from the coal that's being extracted?

One would think that electricity would be a savior if gasoline prices sky-rocket, but it seems even electricity would be affected if most of the cost of electricity is linked to the price of fuel running the machinery used to extract coal, so one may be raped by rising gasoline costs either way.

 

[Lyen]

Talking about in the good old United States where coal is the typical cheapest form of electricity generation (And makes up a good portion of the electricity), what ultimately determines the price of electricity? One might answer that it'd be linked to the price of coal as coal is the cheapest form of electricity generation in most places in the US, but what determines the price of coal? What costs are involved in coal's extraction? Is it mostly fuel costs for running the machinery and is this powered by petrol or is mostly powered by electricity generated from the coal that's being extracted?

One would think that electricity would be a savior if gasoline prices sky-rocket, but it seems even electricity would be affected if most of the cost of electricity is linked to the price of fuel running the machinery used to extract coal, so one may be raped by rising gasoline costs either way.

Politics determine pretty much everything including the cost of electricity.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

here's my take from what i've read on the subject.

yes, power plants use machinery that plugs into the electricity that they generate wherever possible to keep the cost down.
PV solar cell plants use their own panels on the roof to power the manufacturing process for the same reason.
once stumbled upon the website for a latvian power utility which indicated the source for their electricity was derived from shale oil.
so it depends on whatever you have cheap & plentiful on hand, but the electric medium is the lowest common denominator of energy systems (much like english is to language) which is why they will win out.

as for cost breakdown, the coal fired generators provide the baseband power which is the load that's constantly present running 24/7.
this is the bulk of the electricity produced by the plant & also it's lowest operating cost since coal is so cheap.
their highest operating cost comes from servicing the peak loads which they are mandated by law to meet as part of their operating license.
coal generators take a long time to fire up (longer than the peak event anyways) so peaking is done by switching in smaller diesel or natural gas fired turbines which of course have the much higher fuel cost attached to them.
i stand to be corrected but if i recall correctly it is this minority portion of the plants overall output that is responsible (or at least can be) for the majority of it's operating cost, particularly with dramatic fuel price fluctuations.

this is why power utilities are one of the biggest cheerleaders pushing for electric cars.
having millions of cars charging overnight when the coal gens are running almost idle anyways, it's a cash windfall at no additional expense.
also a certain level of continual EV charging (on average) throughout the day could also significantly raise the baseband thereby lowering the peaking differential & the expensive turbine run time.
then there's V2G in which EV & PHEV owners will get the privilege of providing load leveling service to the utilities during the peak periods which power plants could never afford the fiscal outlay for that kind battery capacity on their own.
so i would say whatever it takes to flatten the peak would be the ultimate cost determinant.

 

[Lock]

Do any of these costs include the cleanup costs (tax dollars aka Super Fund) for eg TVA to clean up their coal ash sludge leak a year ago? And what, about 1300 of these ponds scattered around the USA? If all goes well, somebuddy else (future generations) pay these costs right?
Lock

 

[dogman dan]

Been getting raped by the cost of nuclear power for 25 years. As other kinds of electricity got more expensive we no longer have the most expensive electricity rates in the US. But hey, at least all those years it kept industry from locating here so nobody had a job to pay for electricity.

Coal would cost a fortune too if they actually had to be careful mining it. Same thing with natural gas or oil extraction.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Coal is often found in thick, fairly pure seams. This has allowed the coal mining concerns to gradually increase the scale of production. Some of the largest equipment found is for open-pit mining. After being broken up by very cheap explosives, the rubble is loaded and moved by very large trucks to crushers. Once "pebble-ized', coal can be moved by conveyor and loaded into elevated hoppers to top-fill rail-road cars.

These rail cars arrive at the designated plant and "bottom-dump" their cargo through a grate onto yet another series of conveyors. The number of human bodies involved in coals collection and transport has been reduced to the bare minimum (wages, retirement, health-plans, workmans-comp injuries, requirement of adequate sleep and off-time rest, etc).

Anything we demand other than this is more expensive. To be clear, I am FOR reducing coal use and increasing alternative energy, but...I accept that the price tag will be higher.

Water is a utility that is usually fully government run, but electricity occupies an odd middle ground where it is a private industry (in the hopes of more efficient operation?) but its product is considered so vital that it is the MOST regulated industry in the USA (due to regional monopolies).

California governor Gray Davis was complicit in some crude energy manipulation schemes, and their energy problems resulted in his mid-term ouster (installing Schrwartzenegger). Old people are a small percentage of the population, but politicians are painfully aware of their high voting rate. Raising the price of electricity (regardless of documented evidence of its neccessity) due to phase-in of alternatives is a polititcal tight-rope walk.

Electric plug-in cars charged at night are one of the few things that fit into the future E-supply proposals that doesn't require additional infra-structure. Look for a "push" in this area.

Last year a utility wanted to build a new coal-plant near Mesquite Nevada. No matter how modern it was touted as being, it was soundly voted down by a large margin. Look for a (barely) contrived water (hydro-electric) "crisis" to grant the Nevada governor extraordinary constitutional emergency powers which will over-ride normal checks-and-balances...but only after he has decided he won't run for re-election anymore.

Without economies of scale (coal-burning steam-turbines+grid), nothing is more expensive than "free" electricity. Cut your monthly electricity use in half, then buy $20,000 worth of battery/inverter/PV-panels/back-up gen (also wind-gen where allowed) to collect and store free solar power...then plan on replacing the expensive battery every 7 years. http://www.otherpower.com/

 

[John in CR]

You guys are leaving out the impact of smart grid at the household level and how plug-in e-cars will make that both mandatory and well as their charging a real benefit to load leveling. Once the power company can control usage by the households, then without increase in cost they can provide quite a significant increase in energy. This is absolutely the future, so everyone should embrace the idea. Early adopters will probably get significant rate benefits as the power companies prove and test the system. Do you really care if your freezer turns on a few minutes or an hour later than it tries to on it's own, or if your car needs a 4 hour charge what do you care which 4 hours during the night?

 

[bigmoose]

Scrutinize your bill and note what you pay for generated power and what you pay for distribution, maintenance and marketing...

From my last bill: $107.50 generation, $114.80 distribution, maintenance and marketing.