What's the point of 1000+W ebikes ?

[rumme]

We build powerful bikes, because we can.

You do so illegally. .

Building and riding an electric motorcycle under the pretense that it's an electric bicycle is not only illegal, but also unfair to those bicyclists and motorcyclists who abide by the law.

There are numerous "laws" on the books, that are not only stupid, but a abuse of govt/law enforcement power. For example : Seat belt laws. No jurisdiction should be able to demand people to wear a seatbelt, it should be a personal choice, yet you can get fined $70 or more, for your god given right to chose or not chose to wear a seatbelt. This is especially true in todays era of vehicles that come standard with airbags.

I think it is sad, that many nations have laws that limit a ebike to be 250 watts of power, because those asinine laws do not take into account a persons bodyweight, the persons local terrain/amount of inclines on roadways, etc. A 250 watt hub motor, would be basically useless to someone like myself, yet these types of laws do not take into account such things. A 750 watt hub motor would provide some decent advantage for me, but there are some long roads in my area where a 750 watt hub motor could not handle the incline on its own. \IMHO, a better standard for ebikes would be : you are allowed to have more powerful motor systems, BUT, if you get caught going over the speed limit { or over 30mph} , then you get ticketed just like a normal motorized vehicle. It should never be illegal, for someone to own and use a certain ebike that is capable of over 30mph , as long as they only use that excess power for trails or other situations where they are not surrounded by other licensed/insured vehicles. Even this idea of mine, has some issues with it, but I feel it is certainly better then giving law enforcement the power to fine a person, for having a 300 watt motor, instead of the " lawful" 250 watt motor.

 

[marvak]

About seatbelts, was stoped by cop for not wearing seatbelt, and his argument was that if something happens to me because I wasnt wearing seatbelt, rest of society would have to take care of me. And all opportunity costs associated with it. Kinda hard to argue that, specially here in Europe where there is alot of social governemnt...

 

[Chalo]

There's nothing keeping you from making and riding an electric motorcycle. But if it's a motorcycle, it needs to be registered, inspected, insured. Fair's fair. Unless you think it's cool to share the streets with whatever other uninspected, uninsured vehicle someone else decided was acceptable. I sure don't.

I agree that if speed and mass are the things that make a bicycle different from a motor vehicle, then those are the things to limit, not power. That's how it works here in Texas-- no more than 20 mph on motor power, no more than 100 lbs. But power isn't limited. I think it's a fair dividing line to draw between electric bicycles and mopeds/motorcycles.

Anyway, a bike that packs the power of ten or more cyclists isn't a bicycle, and it shouldn't be presumed to share the same privileges as a bicycle.

 

[arthurtuxedo]

I'm my casual observation, no speed is ever fast enough to prevent motorists becoming impatient and trying to pass unsafely, until you're going way too fast for your safety and that of others.

I used to commute to work by way of a downhill that allowed me to reach 55mph on a pedal bike. It was a 35mph posted street. Even when I was going 55, drivers felt the need to pass me (and then freak out when they got to their turn at 70mph). I learned that I can't let others' desire to drive at unsafe speeds guide my own behavior.

I've experienced the same issue, and once had a pickup truck pass me at double the speed limit in the oncoming traffic lane around a blind corner. It was not a lightly traveled road, so his chance of being killed in a head-on collision was about 1 in 4, and I was doing 10 over the vehicle speed limit (which was perfectly safe on a bike but dangerous for a car on that road). I don't know whether it's male insecurity or lemming-like behavior that makes some drivers feel that they must pass a cyclist no matter what. The only way I feel safe in those situations is to jump the light and bomb down the hill so fast that they can't possibly catch up. I had one idiot desperately try anyway, blowing through stop signs and honking furiously. He never even came within a block of catching me, and I was on a pedal-only Brompton. I almost had to pull aside from laughing so hard.

 

[rumme]

There's nothing keeping you from making and riding an electric motorcycle. But if it's a motorcycle, it needs to be registered, inspected, insured. Fair's fair. Unless you think it's cool to share the streets with whatever other uninspected, uninsured vehicle someone else decided was acceptable. I sure don't.

I agree that if speed and mass are the things that make a bicycle different from a motor vehicle, then those are the things to limit, not power. That's how it works here in Texas-- no more than 20 mph on motor power, no more than 100 lbs. But power isn't limited. I think it's a fair dividing line to draw between electric bicycles and mopeds/motorcycles.

Anyway, a bike that packs the power of ten or more cyclists isn't a bicycle, and it shouldn't be presumed to share the same privileges as a bicycle.

A motorcycle doesn't have working pedals that can provide power to the wheel . Many of the 1000 watt + motored ebikes have pedals that can do that , therefore they cant be considered a motorcycle ? As we see, the legalities boil down to what our corrupt lobbyists, politicians and law enforcement dictates it to be.

It is certainly debatable that having a ebike that can do 25 + mph, should not be a crime, if the rider only does speeds of 20 mph or less on roadways or when encountering other insured/licensed vehicles. I dont need any corrupt entity to tell me, that it is a criminal act for me to own a ebike that has more then a 250 watt hub motor.

 

[marvak]

I'm my casual observation, no speed is ever fast enough to prevent motorists becoming impatient and trying to pass unsafely, until you're going way too fast for your safety and that of others.

I used to commute to work by way of a downhill that allowed me to reach 55mph on a pedal bike. It was a 35mph posted street. Even when I was going 55, drivers felt the need to pass me (and then freak out when they got to their turn at 70mph). I learned that I can't let others' desire to drive at unsafe speeds guide my own behavior.

I've experienced the same issue, and once had a pickup truck pass me at double the speed limit in the oncoming traffic lane around a blind corner. It was not a lightly traveled road, so his chance of being killed in a head-on collision was about 1 in 4, and I was doing 10 over the vehicle speed limit (which was perfectly safe on a bike but dangerous for a car on that road). I don't know whether it's male insecurity or lemming-like behavior that makes some drivers feel that they must pass a cyclist no matter what. The only way I feel safe in those situations is to jump the light and bomb down the hill so fast that they can't possibly catch up. I had one idiot desperately try anyway, blowing through stop signs and honking furiously. He never even came within a block of catching me, and I was on a pedal-only Brompton. I almost had to pull aside from laughing so hard.

But you see the irony in this? You were also speeding trying to stay infront, best sometimes to just let them pass

 

[rumme]

About seatbelts, was stoped by cop for not wearing seatbelt, and his argument was that if something happens to me because I wasnt wearing seatbelt, rest of society would have to take care of me. And all opportunity costs associated with it. Kinda hard to argue that, specially here in Europe where there is alot of social governemnt...

Yeah, that's quite a load of bullshit, coming from that revenue collecting officer. But hes only doing the job hes been programmed to do. Its a 2 part problem...corrupt entities in power making garbage laws, and peons in society who take jobs enforcing those garbage laws,

 

[rumme]

There's nothing keeping you from making and riding an electric motorcycle. But if it's a motorcycle, it needs to be registered, inspected, insured. Fair's fair. Unless you think it's cool to share the streets with whatever other uninspected, uninsured vehicle someone else decided was acceptable. I sure don't.

.

I'm riding a electric bicycle that also has pedals and a chain that can convert my leg power into energy to the back wheel. I would think a electric motorcycle would not have that ability.

Question to you : If a person owns a ebike that has a 800 watt hub motor { which is sooooo illegal } but only uses it to go at a top speed of 20 mph or less, should they really be demanded by law to have inspections, insurance, tags , registration, etc ? If you say yes, then you may be one of the rare liberals in Texas.

Heres my idea of what a electric motorcycle, looks like, performs like..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb0cdLiM0mc

My ebike is nothing like this but because my ebike has a motor above 750 watts, it should be classified as a electric motorcycle ? Nah.

 

[marvak]

There's nothing keeping you from making and riding an electric motorcycle. But if it's a motorcycle, it needs to be registered, inspected, insured. Fair's fair. Unless you think it's cool to share the streets with whatever other uninspected, uninsured vehicle someone else decided was acceptable. I sure don't.

Ok, but what if I want to bike my bike as bike when in city/around people/bike paths etc
And motorbike when I am almost alone on open road and I feel safe going 40mph

If i register it as moped, I am no longer allowed on bike paths/city centre

 

[rumme]

Heres my definition :

electric motorcycle = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb0cdLiM0mc - Doesn't have pedals , or the ability for the rider to power the vehicle by pedaling . Is also much heavier then a ebike that has pedals and because of that weight , it becomes much more destructive at 20+ mph, then a 100 lb ebike .

electric bicycle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpxwou5SUuA
Has pedals which the rider can use to power the bike . Much lighter in weight and much less power then a real electric motorcycle along with MANY other differences. Trying to claim this electric bike is the same as a electric motorcycle, seems silly to me.

 

[999zip999]

I trying my muxus 3,000 72v at 40 amps, but my CA limits to 40amps as set. My CA shows 40amps or 35mph. It will take 90amps at 7,200 watts but the party is over. As I got an edge 1,500 watts at 3,500 watts. A balance as 47mph is uncomfortable.

 

[rumme]

There's nothing keeping you from making and riding an electric motorcycle. But if it's a motorcycle, it needs to be registered, inspected, insured. Fair's fair. Unless you think it's cool to share the streets with whatever other uninspected, uninsured vehicle someone else decided was acceptable. I sure don't.

I agree that if speed and mass are the things that make a bicycle different from a motor vehicle, then those are the things to limit, not power. That's how it works here in Texas-- no more than 20 mph on motor power, no more than 100 lbs. But power isn't limited. I think it's a fair dividing line to draw between electric bicycles and mopeds/motorcycles.

Anyway, a bike that packs the power of ten or more cyclists isn't a bicycle, and it shouldn't be presumed to share the same privileges as a bicycle.

I agree with some of your points, especially if a ebiker is using the main roadways to do their commuting and having to do speeds of 30-70 mph to keep up with insured vehicles that they are sharing the main roads with . Where I live, I don't drive on the main roads, I drive on back gravel roads or on the sides of the roads, out of the way of traffic. Because of this, I don't feel having a ebike capable of 20+ mph, should be considered illegal or a crime.

 

[MadRhino]

If you are not smart riding a powerful bike, you soon learn the hard way. Horses and bulls are even harder, teaching you to be a smart rider. Some might say bikes are much faster... Yet bikes don't kick you when you are distracted, nor come back to finish you after a crash. :wink:

 

[999zip999]

I reread the title and I say it's the feeling of a magic carpet ride. You know like in Aladdin's lamp.

 

[arthurtuxedo]

I've experienced the same issue, and once had a pickup truck pass me at double the speed limit in the oncoming traffic lane around a blind corner. It was not a lightly traveled road, so his chance of being killed in a head-on collision was about 1 in 4, and I was doing 10 over the vehicle speed limit (which was perfectly safe on a bike but dangerous for a car on that road). I don't know whether it's male insecurity or lemming-like behavior that makes some drivers feel that they must pass a cyclist no matter what. The only way I feel safe in those situations is to jump the light and bomb down the hill so fast that they can't possibly catch up. I had one idiot desperately try anyway, blowing through stop signs and honking furiously. He never even came within a block of catching me, and I was on a pedal-only Brompton. I almost had to pull aside from laughing so hard.

But you see the irony in this? You were also speeding trying to stay infront, best sometimes to just let them pass

Normally I do, but these particular roads were too narrow and downhill. Getting way out in front of traffic was my only safe option, as riding far enough to the right to let them pass could have won me the door prize.

 

[John in CR]

I've got some of the fastest ebikes on the forum, and they're perfectly legal here, so by Chalo's logic that's perfectly fine and fair. I use speed and acceleration to stay safer than anyone crazy enough to ride the streets at cyclist speeds. I make it a point to ride responsibly and courteously, so I'm never a nuisance to motorists, cyclists, or pedestrians (something few cyclists can claim). I respect cyclists choices, but that's just not for me, so don't force their narrow idea of what an ebike should be on me. It's unfortunate that so much of the world is force to live under those draconian arbitrary rules that were crafted by cyclists, because it really hinders development of very light EVs somewhere between motorcycles, bicycles, and cars.

 

[rumme]

I've got some of the fastest ebikes on the forum, and they're perfectly legal here, so by Chalo's logic that's perfectly fine and fair. I use speed and acceleration to stay safer than anyone crazy enough to ride the streets at cyclist speeds. I make it a point to ride responsibly and courteously, so I'm never a nuisance to motorists, cyclists, or pedestrians (something few cyclists can claim). I respect cyclists choices, but that's just not for me, so don't force their narrow idea of what an ebike should be on me. It's unfortunate that so much of the world is force to live under those draconian arbitrary rules that were crafted by cyclists, because it really hinders development of very light EVs somewhere between motorcycles, bicycles, and cars.

John, its not just ebike laws, its most laws in general. The sad fact is, humans often lack common sense , respect and insights , therefore laws must be created and enacted by corrupt politicians/ lobbyists, law enforcement, courts , etc to try and steer dumb humans onto a more stable track/ life.

Another example of human character is how most people will complain about their jobs and they will make statements on how they wish they never had to work . Ironically, most of these people would "self implode" if they were able to live their lives without maintaining a job to keep them occupied. All that idle time would result in boredom that would manifest into destructive traits { alcoholism, drug usage, spending everyday at strip clubs, cheating on their spouse, etc} . In other words, humans often become CRIPPLED, if they are given that type of independence and freedom of time.

Discipline and common sense, are not that common for many humans. We are programmed to accumulate and procreate. In this current era , it seems our culture has taken on a new aspect of young people having kids, and then the grandparents actually doing more of the parenting, then the actual parents.

 

[rumme]

My simple reply to the question of " WHATS THE POINT OF 1000+ WATT EBIKES" :

Because many people would not derive much benefit from 250 watt ebikes and according to a persons weight and steepness of the roads in their area , a 1000 watt or more setup may be needed to actually make it a logical investment into a ebike . IMHO, owning a ebike means that ebike has enough power to be used without pedaling at all, if the owner wishes. For a 130 lb rider, 500 watts of power may be enough, for a 300 lb rider, it may not be. To just have laws on the books that claim everyone should be happy with the performance of a 250 watt motor, is absurd.

On flat surfaces , usually 1000 watts of power is plenty , but what about the times you need to commute up a 1 mile roadway on a steep incline ? That's when having the ability to pump more then 1000 watts into a motor, has major benefits . That extra power isn't being used to go 60 mph, it is being used to scale a steep incline .

 

[craneplaneguy]

What's the point? For me and my fat bike, it's low speed TORQUE. Power, whatever you want to call it, but the trails I ride are not bike trails, and are real steep and rocky. I measured one's angle this morning with the handy inclometer app on my phone, I was doing just fine, maintaining headway anyway, up to a 36% grade. It was full of large and small rocks, and I had to go slow as it was also twisty, this is where the BBSHD (1300 watts I understand, with the tweaked programming) and the fatbike combo really shine. Then I hit a REALLY steep part, a measured 72 % grade, and I then quit , before I killed myself. I laid the bike down and started hiking up the last remaining 100 yards, as that was the summit and i would have a great view in all directions, it was very tricky to walk it, that steep and slippery, coming down it took my full attention also, no wonder I couldn't ride up it! There is nothing I like more then going super slow, and picking my way through a gnarly section of tree roots combined with rocks and a steep grade, a 6 mph average on a 8 mile ride like today is common for me. It really gives your upper body a workout and gets pretty technical, and I have noticed that I can now ride places that last year I walked. Anyway, that is how I use my 1000+ watts.

My other 1000+ watt bike is a Montague folder, but the Rohloff hub makes it a pretty good trail bike in a pinch (thanks to the wide gearing spread of the hub, though the fattie is much preferred due to the traction and cush ride) but where it really shines is street riding, at up to about 38 mph. I fully agree with all the other comments here, speed is safety, when managed carefully of course. It allows me to transit areas with NO room for a bike lane, or any shoulder to speak of, like under one underpass I am forced to ride fairly often, the faster I can get through there the safer. I ride both bikes using my thumb throttle as my preferred assist, I find it much more efficient then any cadence sensor/5 or even 10 level of assist. I use my throttle to give me as little or as much as I feel the need for, overall I use less power and go further then when using a pre programmed (in effect) pedal assist. I only point that out as it seems to some that when ever you mention the work "throttle", it's assumed i am just sitting there using just my thumb, not so (not that's anything wrong with that).

 

[John in CR]

I've got some of the fastest ebikes on the forum, and they're perfectly legal here, so by Chalo's logic that's perfectly fine and fair. I use speed and acceleration to stay safer than anyone crazy enough to ride the streets at cyclist speeds. I make it a point to ride responsibly and courteously, so I'm never a nuisance to motorists, cyclists, or pedestrians (something few cyclists can claim). I respect cyclists choices, but that's just not for me, so don't force their narrow idea of what an ebike should be on me. It's unfortunate that so much of the world is force to live under those draconian arbitrary rules that were crafted by cyclists, because it really hinders development of very light EVs somewhere between motorcycles, bicycles, and cars.

John, its not just ebike laws, its most laws in general. The sad fact is, humans often lack common sense , respect and insights , therefore laws must be created and enacted by corrupt politicians/ lobbyists, law enforcement, courts , etc to try and steer dumb humans onto a more stable track/ life.

Another example of human character is how most people will complain about their jobs and they will make statements on how they wish they never had to work . Ironically, most of these people would "self implode" if they were able to live their lives without maintaining a job to keep them occupied. All that idle time would result in boredom that would manifest into destructive traits { alcoholism, drug usage, spending everyday at strip clubs, cheating on their spouse, etc} . In other words, humans often become CRIPPLED, if they are given that type of independence and freedom of time.

Discipline and common sense, are not that common for many humans. We are programmed to accumulate and procreate. In this current era , it seems our culture has taken on a new aspect of young people having kids, and then the grandparents actually doing more of the parenting, then the actual parents.

Ah, but there are no such laws limiting motor vehicles. Other than requirements for proper lighting, which ebikers should follow too, the use of all other motorized vehicle regulated by speed limits and traffic signals and signs. No, the oppressive ebike laws were crafted by cyclists bicycle manufactures, IOW people with the same silly attitude as Chalo and no vision of a better future of transportation that electrics can bring. Electrics should be encouraged not stifled.

 

[liveforphysics]

If you are not smart riding a powerful bike, you soon learn the hard way. Horses and bulls are even harder, tehaching you to be a smart rider. Some might say bikes are much faster... Yet bikes don't kick you when you are distracted, nor come back to finish you after a crash. :wink:

Bikes are so fair compared to horses, and it's such a better deal to be tumbling together with any bicycle in any positions than a horse. And the height to fall is much lower and tree branches have way better clearance margins ducking on a bike than a horse.

Yesterday I rode a full suspension fat tire >50mph capable sub 50lbs carbon ebike to a Sondors group ride event. I never broke 20-25mph the whole bike path and didn't exceed 30-35mph on the streets riding/splitting through city traffic and not holding up any cars while filtering to the front of every intersection and easily out accelerating traffic when the light changes.

Didn't need to use >50mph speed the whole ride for many hours of riding, because for conditions it wasn't necessary.

However, the whole ride it did offer me the acceleration/speed overhead capability, should an anomaly event in traffic occur which having the ability to get away from has been priceless in saving my life over 25years of riding a motorcycle in Seattle/bay area/LA and also using motorcycles/ebikes/bicycles as my primary transportation when traveling in Asia and Europe.

I deeply value my life and appreciate every breath of every day, and I wish no harm to any other beings. I ride with a technique that minimizes the indecents in which a rearward drivers focus and observation of my body on the road is required for my survival.

Everyone has their own set of life experiences, I'm not advocating anyone else needs to ride any differently than they also feel is the most safe operating choice for their environment.

 

[rojitor]

What's the Point of 250 w ebikes? I simply can't understand why they are even sold. The laws are made to protect the oil industry. Riding at "Legal" speeds is way more dangerous than common Sense speeds. But that's my opinion....

 

[arthurtuxedo]

I've got some of the fastest ebikes on the forum, and they're perfectly legal here, so by Chalo's logic that's perfectly fine and fair. I use speed and acceleration to stay safer than anyone crazy enough to ride the streets at cyclist speeds. I make it a point to ride responsibly and courteously, so I'm never a nuisance to motorists, cyclists, or pedestrians (something few cyclists can claim). I respect cyclists choices, but that's just not for me, so don't force their narrow idea of what an ebike should be on me. It's unfortunate that so much of the world is force to live under those draconian arbitrary rules that were crafted by cyclists, because it really hinders development of very light EVs somewhere between motorcycles, bicycles, and cars.

If everyone used courtesy, awareness, and common sense then we wouldn't need regulations on cars or trucks either. While I would personally enjoy being able to build a fast ebike and not worry about rules, I wouldn't want someone who lost their license due to DUIs and reckless driving to be able to ride a vehicle that could seriously injure or kill a pedestrian.

There was a case here in SF a few years ago where some hipster idiot plowed into an old woman on a pedal-only road bike and killed her. All it would take is a handful of people like him with powerful motors running down pedestrians and our little hobby would be permanently banned. Just look at what happened in NYC, and that ban wasn't even precipitated by actual fatalities as far as I know.

 

[MadRhino]

So ? People are killed by cars everyday and they didn't restrict the power that they have. In New York, they have the ebike law, not because idiots were riding ebikes but because idiots did vote the law.

Never let idiots rule your life, that could be making you one of them.

 

[qwerkus]

Interesting that this discussion turned into an argument about social responsibility. I myself am rather dubious about current legislation, yet my everyday experience tells me otherwise: where I live, the number 1 clients buying ebikes are the elderly. Not the 65+ - more like 75-85+. There are many reasons for that, most of them rooted in current insurance policies, which give you a discount if you are retired, and buying a 500w ebike (not 250w pedelecs) and the fact that the elderly usually have more cash than the younger ones.

The result is lightning fast gd-mas roaming bike lanes, with poor reflexes and a real danger for everyone else. The only bike collision accident I've had in recent years was with one of those ebike-gd'-mas running past me on the wrong side of the street. It really was nobodies fault, since the other side of the street was obstructed, yet the collision happened mostly because she was riding too fast to realize what's going on. Had I not screamed like a drunken fool, she would have hit me at full speed. Luckily no heavy injure occurred, but the poor lady was in complete shock. I had to change my front wheel; not sure she would ever be riding again. Since then, whenever I spot an ebike old timer, I immediately try to change lanes, or even take a different road. Of course, this is more related to the overall aging of the population than ebikes in particular, but I keep wondering: what's the smart approach to keep irresponsible people (or the ones simply overestimating themselves) from riding dangerous vehicles: limiting the vehicle power, or restricting their access ? And how to enforce it ?