Wheel broke so I wheel build

[t_tberg]

Sorry about the pun in the title, I had to.

Anyway, I took an extended ride home from work and ended up walking a few miles because of this..


You can see the carnage, I need to build a new wheel.. The motor is a generic 1000W DD

After some ES perusing and ebay searching I bit the bullet and went with an Alex DX 32 36h rim and the Maxxis hookworms. The hookworms look like they'll be a tight squeeze on my bike.. I am still waiting on the rim, I just realized that the 12 gauge spokes I bought might not fit in the rim... The spokes are 12 gauge 166mm spokes from amazon, the spoke calculator on ebikes.ca recommended 168mm. I bought the spokes hastily trying to get my wheel back together, I'm starting to think that I need the double butted 13-14 gauge spokes, the ones on ebikes.ca will run me almost $50 before shipping though! I'm sure others have laced the 1000W ebay hubby into a Alex DX 32. Can you give me some tips? Any good sources for e bike 13-14 double butted spokes?

 

[t_tberg]

Still poking around ebay, are 14 gauge double butted sufficient for a heavy hub? It looks like one seller has them reasonably priced but the smallest custom cut is 170mm; can 2mm or so be removed with a dremel and maintain safe length of threads?

 

[nutnspecial]

Hi, I've only built one wheel so far, but I re cut and rolled my old spokes. Longer spokes wouldn't be so much the issue as possible bottoming out of nipples on threads. . . but I wouldn't expect 2 mm would be unusable.

I do think the 13/14 are the popular choice for most hubs that size.
Possibly holmes hobbies has spokes?

There's no chance you can reuse the old ones in the new rim?

Otherwise the 170mm 14ga should be worth a shot-

 

[wesnewell]

If you've got a standard 243mm hyb motor, the 166mm spokes will work fine, That's what I used with my Weinmann DH39 rim and it ;s almost identical to the Ale DX32. If the rim comes with eyelets for 13/14g spokes you may have to remove the eyelets for 12g spokes. I stripped my dh39 rim out of a wheel set that came with 12g spokes, so I didn't have that problem. If it doesn't have eyelets and you have to drill the holes out, drill them at an angle to the matching holes in the hub motor. It will make assembly easier nd will also allow you to get proper tension easier. The DH39 is a great rim, so the DX32 should be too. A wise choice for tires from 1.95" to 3.0". If the hookworms are too big, get 2.4" Cyclops. On a DX32 rim they will be 2.5", so the hookworms may be 2.6". The Cyclops barely fit in my Mongoose Ledge 2.1. I don't think hookworms would fit.

 

[t_tberg]

Thanks for the replies.. I think I'm gonna stick with the 12 gauge spokes that I already bought. If they don't fit I'll file out the eyelets until they do. I'm really hoping the hookworms fit, I have a feeling like it might be too tight of a fit unless I can get the rim perfectly centered; only then I might get 3mm on each side

 

[Chalo]

Thanks for the replies.. I think I'm gonna stick with the 12 gauge spokes that I already bought. If they don't fit I'll file out the eyelets until they do.

They won't fit, and you'll ruin a perfectly good rim if you do that.

Get some 14ga spokes from danscomp.com for a quarter each, cut to whatever size you want. If you use 14-15ga butted spokes for 40 cents each, your wheel will stay tight better and be able to carry more weight more reliably.

If you use 12ga spokes, they'll loosen up all the time, and you'll run a much higher risk of cracking your rim at the spoke holes.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Those hookworms are great, if you can make them fit.

12g are going to cause a broke wheel, just like your last one. It might actually break faster if you got quality 12g spokes. The reason is that spokes are suppose to stretch to stay in tension. They are designed to flex with the wheel as you roll over bumps, rocks, logs, curbs, and cats. 12G spokes are much stronger than the rim supporting them, so even if you can get the tension up tight enough to hold without cracking or crushing the rim, they won't be able to flex with the rim, leaving the rim to take all of the abuse, without even being able to transfer the load to other parts of the rim.
A quality 12g is stronger and stiffer than the cheap 12g that come on many hub motors. being too stiff in this case means they will cause damage to a rim even faster.

A single butted spoke like a 13/14 would be a great alternative. A double butted 13/15/14 would be nearly ideal.

 

[Chalo]

A single butted spoke like a 13/14 would be a great alternative. A double butted 13/15/14 would be nearly ideal.

I wouldn't be surprised if Danscomp has those too, but you have to call by phone and ask for spokes not listed in their online catalog.

 

[wesnewell]

I love my 12g spokes Over 4 years 15K miles up to 61.4 mph airborne. Hit a big dog flipped bike, Lots of potholes. No rim damsge at all. No loose spokes. One spoke broke at hub motor after ~3 years. Watch this to deal with the eyelets. You won't ruin the rim. My spokes cost $10 for 100 with nipples. Primo 12g SS 166mm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-QZazAY0cc

 

[amberwolf]

Still poking around ebay, are 14 gauge double butted sufficient for a heavy hub?

I'm using 13-14 butted Sapim from Grin Tech on my heavy cargo bike CrazyBIke2, and the even heavier Saint Bernard-hauler trike SB Cruiser, on 20" rims with heavy hubmotors in them (see my signature for the builds).

No failures of those spokes yet in the radial lacing forced by the rim size vs hub size, even with all the high side-loading on the trike (I take my turns pretty fast for a non-leaning delta trike, 15-18MPH depending on load, enough to drift the back end around the turns, often enough). Presently using Shinko SR-241 16" "moped" tires on there, with ex-Zero rims. (same wide rim as CB2's rear wheel; I don't know who made them).

I have broken 12g spokes even in 26" wheels, and nearly disintegrated 20" wheels laced with them as they just wouldn't stay tensioned; once tightned "enough" then they began ripping the (cheap) rims apart, tearing thru the holes and cracking the center of the rim circumferentially.


Those 13-14 butted Sapim spokes have been the best investment I've made in wheels, probably ever, given all the problems I had before I started using them.

 

[t_tberg]

Wouldn't there be a little bit of play at the flange with 14 gauge? I've seen people use brass washers pressed to have some concavity to combat the play at the flange, but I guess since no one has mentioned it that it's not a big deal? I'm sold on the 13-14 butted or 13/14/13 double butted if I can find them.. I'm only 175 lbs (80kg) maybe 200 lbs (90kg) fully loaded with gear but I like a strong build

Thanks for the replies.. I think I'm gonna stick with the 12 gauge spokes that I already bought. If they don't fit I'll file out the eyelets until they do.

They won't fit, and you'll ruin a perfectly good rim if you do that.

Get some 14ga spokes from danscomp.com for a quarter each, cut to whatever size you want. If you use 14-15ga butted spokes for 40 cents each, your wheel will stay tight better and be able to carry more weight more reliably.

If you use 12ga spokes, they'll loosen up all the time, and you'll run a much higher risk of cracking your rim at the spoke holes.

I saw a video of Ypedal using a round file to file out the eyelets... I'm certainly not going to do that now. On my other e bike that has an identical wheel (~1500 miles) as the one that just broke (~2000 miles); the newer wheel is appears to have tiny cracks at a few spoke holes, it could just be dirt, I have to get a better look, the nipples are starting to rust too. I'm really not happy with the quality of the wheel builds from the $200 ebay kits. I know that I got what I paid for :lol: .. Whenever I have extra money for my next project will be lacing one of those $190 1500W halomotors into a nice rim. I'd like to see some pictures of those if anyone has done so..

 

[t_tberg]

got some 13/15/14 spokes cut to 167mm on ebay with the nipples for about $50. I'm clearing out my bank account to get one of my bikes back on the road!

 

[amberwolf]

Wouldn't there be a little bit of play at the flange with 14 gauge? I've seen people use brass washers pressed to have some concavity to combat the play at the flange, but I guess since no one has mentioned it that it's not a big deal? I'm sold on the 13-14 butted or 13/14/13 double butted if I can find them.. I'm only 175 lbs (80kg) maybe 200 lbs (90kg) fully loaded with gear but I like a strong build

I'm a bit less at 170lbs right now, but was 180+ much of last year and the one before, plus another 100lbs for Tiny (the SB the trike was built for), plus the 150-200lbs for the trike itself, most of which weight is on those two rear wheels.

As long as everythign is tensioned properly, the thinner spoke section will stretch on bumps and the ends won't come loose as the rim flexes inward (because the rim will be held in place everwhere else as the other spokes pull it).

As for the spoke heads vs hub flange, I had to use washers on one motor due to the flange hole size being so big it the heads would go thru (but that was true even with some of the 12g I had, in some of the holes (they're not all the same size for whatever reason). But I'm not using any on the trike's motors, one of which is an old Crystalyte X5304, and one of which is an old 9C 2807 (both of which were OEM-laced with 12g). No problems with the heads/flange on those.

As long as the spoke head can't come thru the flange itself, and can rest along the hole's edge along the entire spoke head rim, then it will work like it's supposed to.

The main reason for washers is either to ensure the spoke head has somehwere to push on from tension without popping thru the flange, or to take up extra length between head and elbow so the elbow is at/within the flange hole, and the head is still pulling on a flat surface and neither is floating out in the air.

 

[imsamib]

I have beens reading everything I can find on wheel building. I read an article last night that talked about longer than usual nipples to help with short spoke problems. I am very new and not able to give advice, just read the article.

 

[t_tberg]

View attachment 3

OK gents the wheel is rebuilt and I would say to an extremely higher standard then the cheepy stock (despite my rookie mistake of partially obscuring access to the valve stem ) The rim is Alex DX 32 and I bought some hookworms as stated previously in the thread. I got spokes from an ebay seller yojimbos garage; he had triple butted (2.2 1.8 2.0) listed but when I placed an order he said he was searching for a source for the Force spokes in a sub-175mm length and he likely get some within the next month or two. Probably gonna go back there for rebuilding my other stock wheel (Ebay 1000W kit nipples rusting after pretty heavy use over one Pittsburgh winter [I thought nipples where aluminum?])

Anyway, lacing went well.. just followed Sheldon Browns procedure but still managed to make the noob mistake of putting a spoke group slightly overlapping the valve hole. Getting the old spokes out took a lot longer then I expected, getting the new ones in was surprisingly easy. Once all the spokes were laced in with about two turns then I started at the valve hole and tightened the nipples 5 turns of the hand with the screwdriver, I went around the wheel about 5 times giving each nipple 5 turns with a screwdriver. After each rotation of the wheel I would give the spokes a little push and pull in each direction to make sure that they were properly seated. I then put the wheel into my upside down bike to center and true the wheel (good old fashioned dropouts and zipties). There was a slight bump that I took care of first and the rest of the wheel was very close to being trued. I few lateral adjustments and general tightening and checking tension by hand and I think that I built an evenly tensioned and very true wheel with no truing stand.

With the hookworms in I have less than a millimeter of space between the tire and the controller mounted on the seat tube, luckily I have sliding dropouts so a chain link or two will take care of that. There's probably around 2mm of space between the chainstays and tires..



I rode about a mile last night, started out slow just peddling, then bounced around lightly, checked tension. All good > Started to go fast, check tension, all good > Fast acceleration + regen, check tension, no changes. I also rode to work today (~2 miles) everything seems to be holding up ok.

Can anyone post any tips on how to maintain a wheel after building it, I thought read somewhere that after the first 50 miles or so it will start to "set in" at which point you may have to make some more adjustments?

 

[amberwolf]

(Ebay 1000W kit nipples rusting after pretty heavy use over one Pittsburgh winter [I thought nipples where aluminum?])

If the road is salted, *anything* metal will corrode to one degree or another, especially if it's not cleaned off immediately.

Other than the valve hole lacing issue, the only thing I see that I'd've done different is to run the spokes under each other, so the outer spoke crosses under the inner spoke before running to it's nipple.


You may end up with grime damage to the controller exterior if the tire picks up grit/etc and large enough particles make it to there to be forced thru the gap between tire and controller. Other than that there's nothing really wrong with very tight clearances, unless you get a nail (or whatever) in the tire that sticks way out and then gets caught on the controller and is then ripped out of the tire causing more damage than when it went in. Not a likely happenstance, but possible.

 

[Chalo]

(Ebay 1000W kit nipples rusting after pretty heavy use over one Pittsburgh winter [I thought nipples where aluminum?])

If the road is salted, *anything* metal will corrode to one degree or another, especially if it's not cleaned off immediately.

Cheap spoke nipples are made of mild steel with a zinc plating. The best spoke nipples are made of brass. AMPCO bronze or beryllium copper would be awesome for the application, but I've never seen that.

Aluminum spoke nipples are considered a premium option, but they're pretty much the worst material for the job. They seize easily, they corrode and get stuck so you can't turn them, and after lots of miles on the wheel they can break by themselves from a combination of stress and corrosion. Do yourself and your mechanic a favor and avoid aluminum spoke nipples.

 

[t_tberg]

Do yourself and your mechanic a favor and avoid aluminum spoke nipples.

I work on my bike myself, I have no mechanic, just the nearly endless resources online. This wheel build is by far the most advanced bike work I've done and a year ago I would've probably handed the job over to a mechanic. The spokes I have are DT SWISS Alloy Nipples 14g 12mm long, Chalo, you're saying that I should get brass nipples for my next wheel build?

 

[Ykick]

...I thought read somewhere that after the first 50 miles or so it will start to "set in" at which point you may have to make some more adjustments?

Funny thing is the 50 mile re-tighten advice only seems to apply to cheap stock China wheel builds. Every motor wheel I’ve laced myself using good components and ample stress relief has never needed any additional truing. Several approaching 10k miles or more.

Not saying it can't happen, all it takes is a nasty pothole strike to bend something. So always check for broken or loose spokes and of course maintain proper tire air pressure at all times.

 

[t_tberg]

Thanks Ykick, I certainly had to do some truing of the crappy stock rims. I'm pretty confident in the strength of this wheel and there being so little tire clearance I'll quickly see if anything gets out of line. I don't think it will though it seems to be staying true. Also the hookworms have a max of 65 psi, how low can you run them? Is 40 psi a standard minimum pressure?

 

[Ykick]

Thanks Ykick, I certainly had to do some truing of the crappy stock rims. I'm pretty confident in the strength of this wheel and there being so little tire clearance I'll quickly see if anything gets out of line. I don't think it will though it seems to be staying true. Also the hookworms have a max of 65 psi, how low can you run them? Is 40 psi a standard minimum pressure?

Thanks and good job on the wheel. Keep it up!

How low psi can you run them? Until you hit that one curb or bad hole and suffer a pinch flat.

The good news is that the wider rim does allow you to run lower and softer air pressure than with a thinner rim. But much depends on how heavy everything adds up and how often you tangle with rough/harsh surfaces?

I tend to not take many chances in this hell hole I ride so ‘keep tires close to max psi at all times. FS (full suspension) helps.

Buut Hookworms and other wide “urban assault” tires seem to do good on wide rims and lower air pressures. Proper size thick tubes help too.

Just experiment with tire air pressure until you find what works for your situation. If you do run low pressure test it out close to home on some curbs or sharp potholes to perhaps find the pinch flat point?

Slime won't slow the leak on those damn things since they're on the inside circumference of the tube.

 

[Chalo]

Do yourself and your mechanic a favor and avoid aluminum spoke nipples.

The spokes I have are DT SWISS Alloy Nipples 14g 12mm long, Chalo, you're saying that I should get brass nipples for my next wheel build?

Kudos on doing your own wheel building.

Yes, you should get brass nipples in the future. In my observation, black DT Swiss spokes come with aluminum nipps but plain stainless ones come with brass (and cost less). DT Revolution 14/17ga spokes also come with aluminum nipps. But aluminum nipples are a recipe for disappointing failure-- a way to make wheels last a few years that could otherwise last for decades.

 

[t_tberg]

Yes, you should get brass nipples in the future.

Yeah for sure, the one of the aluminum nipples has already rounded off making it hard to tighten with the spoke wrench, I have to use needle nose pliers..

 

[Chalo]

Yes, you should get brass nipples in the future.

Yeah for sure, the one of the aluminum nipples has already rounded off making it hard to tighten with the spoke wrench, I have to use needle nose pliers..

No matter what your spoke nipples are made from, they'll work better if they're lubricated with something. There are special latex + Teflon compounds like Wheelsmith Spoke Prep that serve both lube and adhesive, but even normal oil or grease are much better than dry threads when it comes time to turn up the tension or to true a bent wheel. I use grease or moly lube on wheels I'm building for myself, and Triflow for wheels that are already assembled. Don't forget to put some on the rim holes, too.