999zip999
100 TW
NEW 8 Pack SAB 3.2v 55ah 176wh 60280 Cells
Regular price$240.00 battery hookup.
How about these cells
Regular price$240.00 battery hookup.
How about these cells
When will 4680 cells be available to the public?
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Hillhater
100 TW
??.. how many have you built ?eMark said:
I can think of several advantages of pouch cells for ebikes.
eMark
100 kW
Please elaborate with your several advantages over that of either 1865 or 2170 cells. Can't think of even one advantage that would be worth my time and expense (and learned logic that comes with age) to fabricate a li-ion pouch battery for my use.Hillhater said:
Not interested in purchasing a kweld and the learning curve becoming proficient at spot welding. So a pouch cell battery option offers me No advantage. Not even for the roomy cargo container on my adult e-trike for a lithium pouch battery ... ( call me a Kill-Joy :wink: )
If I wasn't approaching 78, ambitious enuf and game enuf i might welcome the DIY challenge
speedmd
10 MW
Certainly if your looking to pack every nook and cranny with active material, the flat pack has advantages to the can style builds. But if fast charge - discharge is premium, the continuous tab design of the 4680 with closer proximity to active layers and vast connection points should have some major advantages. Time will tell what form factors will win out. If your targeting sub 5 minute full charge 
, the current tab connection designs of the larger format flat packs will certainly be risky if at all possible.
, the current tab connection designs of the larger format flat packs will certainly be risky if at all possible.
jonescg
100 MW
Re: pouch cell versus cylindrical versus prismatic ... They're all good, and bad, at different things.
Pouch cells deliver the most discharge capability of any cell format as the thickness of the electrodes determines the current.
Cylindrical and prismatic cells offer more energy density, but power loses out as the interconnect between electrode and the terminal is typically smaller and higher resistance than that of a pouch.
Pouch cells are harder to cool in a waterproof way, but cooling the conductive tabs and buslinks directly removes heat very quickly.
While cylindrical cells can be cooled radially or axially, radial cooling is more complicated, and makes assembly more troublesome. Axial cooling is limited by the interface between the cell and the heatsink, and this needs to be electrically insulating (but thermally conducting - aka holy grail).
Cylindrical cells are smaller, and that means they can be packaged to fit a unique shape, which might result in better space utilisation and therefore overall pack energy density. Prismatics are less convenient for oddball shapes, but damn they're easy to just bolt together!
Ironically Tesla was celebrated for it's 'genius' use of 18650s and all sorts of justifications were made, but really, the main reason was "We can buy shitloads of these, right now". 21700s were exactly the same, except you needed fewer of them. 4680 cells; same again only even fewer. And now, when over half of Teslas cars are rolling off production lines with BYD blade batteries, they essentially moved to a prismatic cell, designed to fit inside a large rectangular space.
Because the range battle has been won (folks realising they don't really need 600 km of range to a charge) Tesla can make cars with respectable range (350-450 km) using lower energy density cells which are more readily available and are ultimately a bit cheaper to make. Even better that Chinese factories are making them, as this keeps costs down.
How long until Tesla starts using Thunderskys? :lol:
Pouch cells deliver the most discharge capability of any cell format as the thickness of the electrodes determines the current.
Cylindrical and prismatic cells offer more energy density, but power loses out as the interconnect between electrode and the terminal is typically smaller and higher resistance than that of a pouch.
Pouch cells are harder to cool in a waterproof way, but cooling the conductive tabs and buslinks directly removes heat very quickly.
While cylindrical cells can be cooled radially or axially, radial cooling is more complicated, and makes assembly more troublesome. Axial cooling is limited by the interface between the cell and the heatsink, and this needs to be electrically insulating (but thermally conducting - aka holy grail).
Cylindrical cells are smaller, and that means they can be packaged to fit a unique shape, which might result in better space utilisation and therefore overall pack energy density. Prismatics are less convenient for oddball shapes, but damn they're easy to just bolt together!
Ironically Tesla was celebrated for it's 'genius' use of 18650s and all sorts of justifications were made, but really, the main reason was "We can buy shitloads of these, right now". 21700s were exactly the same, except you needed fewer of them. 4680 cells; same again only even fewer. And now, when over half of Teslas cars are rolling off production lines with BYD blade batteries, they essentially moved to a prismatic cell, designed to fit inside a large rectangular space.
Because the range battle has been won (folks realising they don't really need 600 km of range to a charge) Tesla can make cars with respectable range (350-450 km) using lower energy density cells which are more readily available and are ultimately a bit cheaper to make. Even better that Chinese factories are making them, as this keeps costs down.
How long until Tesla starts using Thunderskys? :lol:
jonescg
100 MW
john61ct said:
Definitely not - if anything it's a compliment!
Hillhater
100 TW
There is nothing “wrong” with flooded lead acid either,...for some applications ... such as car starter battery.john61ct said:
Its a “horses for courses” situation !
But, Winstons or Thundersky in the context of ebikes, .. they are pretty low down on the shopping list !
Hillhater
100 TW
Sure , they would work, ....but EV cells would be save a lot of extra weight.john61ct said:
jonescg
100 MW
Providing the suspension was built to match the load, they should be fine.
Chalo
100 TW
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
I wonder if any toolbags will actually fall for it?
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING
10 kW
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It's to crowdfund Munroe & Associates. I actually have a piece of the rear suspension link from the Model Y teardown they did, I won it in a raffle 8)Chalo said:
Hillhater
100 TW
Pretty shabby (unprofessional ?) to be selling cells from a test car…..but who cares, its his if he bought it.
Munroe still keeps stating that the 4680 cell has a 30% higher energy density than the 21700 !,..
Lets see if he does a full cell test proceedure and shows the data !
He also completely screwed up the calculation of how many cells would be needed to replace the 21700s in a Mod Y.
.. i dont think Sandy himself is too sharp on battery tech !
Munroe still keeps stating that the 4680 cell has a 30% higher energy density than the 21700 !,..
Lets see if he does a full cell test proceedure and shows the data !
He also completely screwed up the calculation of how many cells would be needed to replace the 21700s in a Mod Y.
.. i dont think Sandy himself is too sharp on battery tech !
tomjasz
1 GW
Korea’s TheElec reports that the Korean manufacturing giant is preparing the new battery cell production line at its Cheonan plant in South Korea:
Samsung SDI was preparing a pilot line at its Cheonan plant in South Korea to test batteries it will be supplying to Tesla, TheElec has learned.
The batteries are 4680 cylinder batteries (46mm diameter, 80mm length) and the South Korean battery firm will verify the technology within the year, sources said.
Interestingly, the publication also reports that Samsung SDI is also planning to test the production of a similar but slightly shorter battery cell for BMW.
Samsung is aiming for the new production line to have a capacity just under 1 GWh, but it will significantly ramp up production if successful as Tesla made it clear it would buy all viable battery cells available.
Tesla is making its own 4680 battery cells, but the automaker has little experience in producing cells, and it has had issues ramping up production.
The company plans to rely on both its own production and supply from established manufacturers to produce the new 4680 format in order to support its production ramp-up and new upcoming vehicle programs like the Cybertruck.
Panasonic is believed to be the most advanced in supplying the battery to Tesla with volume production expected next year.
LG Energy Solutions also recently invested $450 million in producing Tesla’s 4680 battery cell.
Samsung’s timeline is not clear, but TheElec reports that once pilot production is established in Korea, the company is likely to start producing the new cell in a factory with a capacity between 8 and 12 GWh of annual production capacity in Seremban, Malaysia.
The company is reportedly ordering similar manufacturing equipment as Tesla from Hanwha and Koem for the production of the battery cells.
Samsung SDI was preparing a pilot line at its Cheonan plant in South Korea to test batteries it will be supplying to Tesla, TheElec has learned.
The batteries are 4680 cylinder batteries (46mm diameter, 80mm length) and the South Korean battery firm will verify the technology within the year, sources said.
Interestingly, the publication also reports that Samsung SDI is also planning to test the production of a similar but slightly shorter battery cell for BMW.
Samsung is aiming for the new production line to have a capacity just under 1 GWh, but it will significantly ramp up production if successful as Tesla made it clear it would buy all viable battery cells available.
Tesla is making its own 4680 battery cells, but the automaker has little experience in producing cells, and it has had issues ramping up production.
The company plans to rely on both its own production and supply from established manufacturers to produce the new 4680 format in order to support its production ramp-up and new upcoming vehicle programs like the Cybertruck.
Panasonic is believed to be the most advanced in supplying the battery to Tesla with volume production expected next year.
LG Energy Solutions also recently invested $450 million in producing Tesla’s 4680 battery cell.
Samsung’s timeline is not clear, but TheElec reports that once pilot production is established in Korea, the company is likely to start producing the new cell in a factory with a capacity between 8 and 12 GWh of annual production capacity in Seremban, Malaysia.
The company is reportedly ordering similar manufacturing equipment as Tesla from Hanwha and Koem for the production of the battery cells.
DogDipstick
100 kW
eMark said:Please elaborate with your several advantages over that of either 1865 or 2170 cells. Can't think of even one advantage that would be worth my time and expense (and learned logic that comes with age) to fabricate a li-ion pouch battery for my use.Hillhater said:
Not interested in purchasing a kweld and the learning curve becoming proficient at spot welding. So a pouch cell battery option offers me No advantage. Not even for the roomy cargo container on my adult e-trike for a lithium pouch battery ... ( call me a Kill-Joy :wink: )
If I wasn't approaching 78, ambitious enuf and game enuf i might welcome the DIY challenge
Oh MAh God.
18650 and 21700 suck. Suck balls.
My lipo pouch cells? I probably have ten or so builds out there in the world. Sold. Plus mine. Only one has died ( a 10Ah, Hyndai lipo pack built with very old, beat up cells, for fun). Twenty people asking for a build. Thirty people who I have helped personally get the build done and sold them materials. A friend just got a 4 wheeler together with Chevy cells... Built with my crimps and rivets, ( I sold him the interconnects)....and he cannot keep the four wheeler front end down. Rips. For an example.
Cheaper, better, longer lasting, ,ore powerful, much more hardy, to name a few. Advantages.
I have watched 50+( 18650 ) builds die in the time I have had my ( currently 8 year old) lipo NMC-LMO blend pack. All the while I have been charging faster, harder, and ignoring the environments they are run in ( salt, snow, heat). Nothing but constant problems.
...maybe 100 or more, dead.... I literally have hundreds of ev friends and they all try cylindrical cell..... they all die. Then they spend more. I have a 200wH/kG pack, that is solid, and will outlast any 18650 or 21700 pack. Cost less. I cannot kill them by discharge ( well, have not yet, in application).
Not even one cycle on a 6000 cycle pack. Cell cost 14$ ea. 140$ for 10, 280$ for a 20s, 25Ah, 1.8kWh, 400A contin, pack. Gonna outlast the oem 8 year warranty. No BMS, blunt hitting it for all that 4 AWG can take ( might melt ? 1000A? easy) ... Twenty foot rooster rails on a dirt road. Drifting around on a 55mph QS motor.
Two cells in a parallel group( x 96 (s), Moves a Chevy to 140mph. 3000lb+ car.
204wH/kG... and... 3000w per kg. I got 9kg on myy bike. More powerful than a 21700 pack with twice its capacity.
Lol you are building packs with 18mOh cells? Lol I skipped straight to the 1mOh cells. Good luck with that ( heat).
Come back to this thread in 10 years. I will still be riding my pack. Your 18650/21700 pack will be rust-dust.. Dust in the wind.
tomjasz
1 GW
I’d guess many of the customers I dealt with would have burned their garages/houses down with LiPo. Fellas like you are the exception. BTW I just retired my 2014 EM3ev batteries in January 2022.
Hillhater
100 TW
Not all pouch cells are “lipo” ..!
DogDipstick
100 kW
Certainly. LiFePo4 even comes in pouch folded layered construction.. with a solid electrolyte layer I think. I have a nice and thick 60Ah LiFePo4 here ( size of a notebook sheet, 3/4 inch thick), AND a 50Ah " SmartTwoFour" cell ( about 8 x 12 x .25") that is explicitly described in manuf documentation w/out a reference to anything " lipo"... It is LMO-NCA? I think I dunno. Not a "gel" kinda thang.Hillhater said:
Yeah.
Also, I want to say the EV lipos that I use ( as described as "lipo" by LG documentation and Chevrolet documentation, references,) are VERY safe compared to a HobbyKing lipo ( "lipo" as described by the Hobbyking documentations, and advertisements).... I could do head-to head on vid destruction tests of both types of cells.. fully charged.. and you would be surprised of the docile nature of the LG cell compared to a HK cell of 1/5 the capacity.
I like highway designed cells because, due to some unfounded, or perhaps gullible, thinking, highly tested and standardized testing on a cell manufacturers product through R&D is reaping a result. Yes, i think they are much safer in puncture, adverse conditions, and whatnot, than the typical "HK" lipo.
Are they ( A brand new, Chevrolet Volt cell, or the like, of the myriad of lipos, in different cars today, purchased from LG?) available to the general public? Nope. Are they on the junkyards, dealerships shelves, and going out back doors to the highest bidder? Yup.
i wouldn't build with anything else. IF the 4680 cells are all they are described as, I might certainly consider. One day should they become available on the salvage market.
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING
10 kW
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Nah, one piece at a time! Only about ~3,280 to go before I have my own Model Y 8) !calab said:
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