where to find PSI cells?

[miro13car]

dequinox,
I disagree respectfully with your points.
You discurage members from posting?
There is so little discussion about quality cells , no doubt PSI ARE QUALITY CELL that is very interesting to read all this discussions including business dealings.
When you want to buy cell, would you be not interested what are business dealings of manufacturer/company who sells them?
All such discussions sometimes not so polite uncover informations I want to hear about.
It is about cell so belong to battery section, right?
Andy, Don, Armin, thank you for your input.
I think most care where the cell is made, under what names is sold, etc. , don't tell me no.
My PSI grey cells is one of the best purchases I ever made, I bought with LifeBatt sticker, those cells are amazingly robust, electrically and mechanically, all system was originally HPS pack ,you should see buiid quality - first class, I rebuilt into different enclosure.
Great that PSI still manufacture them, still don't know if
white cells are equivalent of green or grey old cell??

I know I know they can be wrapped in any colur shrink, please do not write about it again.

but simple question from specs of white cell, are they
close to specs of green cell or grey cell? As Bob Macree indicated grey has almost half Ri of green cell - it is fact.
MC

 

[BMI]

dequinox,
I disagree respectfully with your points.
You discurage members from posting?
There is so little discussion about quality cells , no doubt PSI ARE QUALITY CELL that is very interesting to read all this discussions including business dealings.
When you want to buy cell, would you be not interested what are business dealings of manufacturer/company who sells them?
All such discussions sometimes not so polite uncover informations I want to hear about.
It is about cell so belong to battery section, right?
Andy, Don, Armin, thank you for your input.
I think most care where the cell is made, under what names is sold, etc. , don't tell me no.
My PSI grey cells is one of the best purchases I ever made, I bought with LifeBatt sticker, those cells are amazingly robust, electrically and mechanically, all system was originally HPS pack ,you should see buiid quality - first class, I rebuilt into different enclosure.
Great that PSI still manufacture them, still don't know if
white cells are equivalent of green or grey old cell??

I know I know they can be wrapped in any colur shrink, please do not write about it again.

but simple question from specs of white cell, are they
close to specs of green cell or grey cell? As Bob Macree indicated grey has almost half Ri of green cell - it is fact.
MC

Miroslaw, I am more than happy to provide information for you. Since you liked the old HPS cases you might like to know that as of today I have been asked by the factory management if I would provide my consultancy services to the factory to design a new range of packs. So I have decided to modify the old HPS pack and improve on the original design. These packs will initially be large packs so are not the sort of battery e-bike users would use. They are being designed for one of my largest customers who are a major player in the international EV market.

I only post information here which readers may find interesting from the LiFePO4 battery manufacturing world. My business does not come from members of this forum so it doesn't matter to me if I post information here or not. Whether you want to believe any information which is provided is up to the individual reader but I would have thought it would be better to have information provided which you might disagree with rather than simply not being given any information at all to form an opinion about.

 

[AndyH]

Great that PSI still manufacture them, still don't know if
white cells are equivalent of green or grey old cell??

I know I know they can be wrapped in any colur shrink, please do not write about it again.

but simple question from specs of white cell, are they
close to specs of green cell or grey cell? As Bob Macree indicated grey has almost half Ri of green cell - it is fact.
MC

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WHITE CELL. The 'white cell' is a picture on a sales brochure and nothing more.

Shrink wrap color has NOTHING to do with cell performance - including Bob's Ri testing.

It's really not that difficult a concept. :? :? http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22156

http://mvp090-1.104web.com.tw/cetacean/front/bin/ptlist.phtml?Category=127783

View attachment cells.jpg

PSI's sales page for their PC40138F1A shows a white cell. The exact same picture is used for the 40138 and 40155 cell. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to recognize that it's physically impossible for the same cell to be two different sizes, right?

The bottom image represents their PC40138F1 cell. Yes - the picture shows a 'white' shrink wrap. We all know that the cell has green shrink in the 'real world'.
View attachment 40138_cell.jpg

We also know exactly how these cells perform, because PSI keeps cells for a year after production and runs them thru full testing before selling them. They also publish full tech info on the cells. For example - they provide the following for the PC40138F1 cell:
http://mvp090-1.104web.com.tw/cetacean/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=e40138f1


View attachment 40138chargeprofile[1].jpg
View attachment 40138chargetime[1].jpg
View attachment 40138cyclelife[1].jpg


Notice in the general specifications that initial internal resistance is <6mΩ. Here's a QC sheet from one of my cell orders:

View attachment PSI_QC.JPG

Notice here that the maximum allowable internal resistance for shipping is ≤ 5.5mΩ. Also notice that the cells were tested between 2.4 and 3mΩ.

PSI provides the same info for their 12Ah cells as well:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=47662
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=22317&start=0#p324801

NEWS FLASH: The cells would have EXACTLY the same Ri if one removed the green shrink and applied RED to one, GREY to another, and BLACK to a third. :lol:

Just like Headway can produce two different cells with the same physical size, the exact same can and hardware, same type of serial number label, and same color shrink wrap; other companies can tweak their cells to favor power or capacity as well. Color has nothing to do with anything.

If you want to know how another company's cells perform, get the PART NUMBER and contact that company.

Good luck.

Andy

 

[BMI]

NEWS FLASH: The cells would have EXACTLY the same Ri if one removed the green shrink and applied RED to one, GREY to another, and BLACK to a third. :lol:

Just like Headway can produce two different cells with the same physical size, the exact same can and hardware, same type of serial number label, and same color shrink wrap; other companies can tweak their cells to favor power or capacity as well. Color has nothing to do with anything.

Andy

Surely a cell in red shrink wrap will provide better performance compared with the same cell in any other color shrink wrap?! Just like red Ferrari's are always faster than any other color. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Andy are you implying that LiFeTech cells are made by Headway?

 

[AndyH]

Surely a cell in red shrink wrap will provide better performance compared with the same cell in any other color shrink wrap?! Just like red Ferrari's are always faster than any other color. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Andy are you implying that LiFeTech cells are made by Headway?

I'm not implying anything - and don't call me 'shirly'. :wink: :lol:

The Headway point was an isolated example of cell color VS. performance - nothing more.

Andy

 

[AndyH]

Andy are you implying that LiFeTech cells are made by Headway?

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=22299&start=30#p327669

 

[miro13car]

Andy,
if you say that made by PSI grey cell is identical to made by PSI green cell so yes your explaination is complete.
If you regard Bob Macree testing showing that grey cell has lower Ri than green cell so to me grey cell IS NOT identical to green cell.
You really presume that there is only one 10Ah PSI cell - green.
. Again from BOB TESTING IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE two 10aH PSI cells, doesn't really matter to me how long time ago it was
It is still a fact or we should simply not trust Bob , because he doesn' post here anymore?
MC

 

[AndyH]

Andy,
if you say that made by PSI grey cell is identical to made by PSI green cell so yes your explaination is complete.
If you regard Bob Macree testing showing that grey cell has lower Ri than green cell so to me grey cell IS NOT identical to green cell.
You really presume that there is only one 10Ah PSI cell - green.
. Again from BOB TESTING IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE two 10aH PSI cells, doesn't really matter to me how long time ago it was
It is still a fact or we should simply not trust Bob , because he doesn' post here anymore?
MC

You're trying to put words into my mouth and/or read too much into this, Miro. I am NOT commenting on Bob, or trying to draw comparisons between different manufacturer's or retailer's products.

edit... If one wanted to compare cells, they might find that Bob's testing show original green LiFeBatt cells were in the 5.5mΩ range, while Sandia labs reported 3.3-3.7mΩ for original green LiFeBatt cells. Bob reported grey BMI were 2.5mΩ fully charged and 2mΩ at 50%. You can see that PSI's basic, 0% Phostech cell runs between 2.4 and 3mΩ. /edit

I am providing factual information on cells manufactured and sold by PSI. If you want information on performance of BMI cells or LiFeBatt cells, you will have to get that information from BMI and/or LiFeBatt.

You appear to be chronically stuck on color. I can't recommend that as a useful analytical tool.

Andy

 

[AndyH]

Andy, we (LiFeBATT) made a typo on the Specs. for our 14Ah Cell : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=22299 It is a 10C rated cell (not 4C) just to correct the facts.

<snip>

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=22299&start=30#p328636

Not a 10C rated cell any longer, I see.

This is the kind of rubbish I didn't want to get in the middle of but here it is anyway. The tech info says 4C. Don says 10C - and 'fights' for that 10C here and in the for sale thread. Then when another E-S member drives the point home, the 10C-4C becomes 5C. Shades of the 'old days' and magic $50 20C cells...

Man, folks - if you need a 10C cell made by folks that didn't start rolling cells last month, get them from PSI. If that level of performance isn't necessary but you still need something better than 1C/2C pouches or 2C/3C prismatics, get Headway cells - their quality appears to be continually improving. Or better yet, get on the LiPo bandwagon - they're inexpensive, light, and bloody powerful. And a modified Mean Well is a really inexpensive charger!

It takes time for a new crew and new management and new equipment and new formulas and new copy writers to get their collective acts together and learn how to find their butts with both hands and a flashlight. Until things get more consistent from any company, I'd stay away.

Sigh.

 

[Gregb]

You appear to be chronically stuck on color. I can't recommend that as a useful analytical tool.

Andy

Have you ever thought of pink for a colour??? Might get more girls in here ...................

 

[miro13car]

How are you suppose to refer to them other than by colur
if they are the same size, identical physically except colour?
Reading from Bob posts it is clear that they are different: PSI grey and green cells.
He is the only one who measured and publish Ri results , no wonder they are little known.
MC

 

[miro13car]

Bob posted:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6586&start=75#p161935

" there is HUDGE difference..." Bob said
MC

 

[AndyH]

How are you suppose to refer to them other than by colur
if they are the same size, identical physically except colour?
Reading from Bob posts it is clear that they are different: PSI grey and green cells.
He is the only one who measured and publish Ri results , no wonder they are little known.
MC

There are plenty of test results posted on this forum alone. In addition, PSI is one of the few manufacturers that provides full tech info on cell performance. http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6586&start=60#p157922 Doc has tested and compared these cells, and Sandia Labs tested and reported on the 'green LifeBATT' cells.

As for colour... Yes - there are different colors and different distributors. As I've tried to point out to you and others in other threads, is that colour alone is NOT enough to identify these cells. Here's why:

Until recently, only one company in the world made 40138-size LiFePO4 cells with 6mm studded terminals - and that's Phoenix Silicon International (PSI) in Taiwan. We on this forum know for a fact (cross checked and confirmed by principals from other companies as well as from sources at PSI) that PSI manufactured 40138 LiFePO4 cells under contract for both LifeBATT and BMI.

We know that PSI's cells are green and have a serial number label both under and on the green shrink wrap.
We know that the cells PSI made for LifeBATT were green and had LifeBATT ink-jet printed on the green shrink wrap.
We know that the cell PSI made for BMI were grey and had the BMI label on the shrink.

One can see some images of cells and info on who made what in this thread:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6586&start=75#p159263

Full tech info on PSI's current cells can be found here (and earlier in this thread):
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=22317

Yes - chemistry can be tweaked to provide a 'capacity' advantage (often at a lower C rate) or a 'power' advantage (often by giving up some capacity). There do appear to be some performance differences between the different cells PSI made for the brothers BMI/LifeBATT (they were connected early on). So I'm not at all surprised to see slight differences in Ri or performance. But overall these cells have proven performance - and the real-world performance matches or exceeds the numbers on the PSI-supplied spec sheets.

To talk with folks that have plenty of real-world experience with PSI cells and many other packs (including other PSI-manufactured variants) going back a number of years, get with Ypedal and Ggoodrum.

Andy

 

[miro13car]

" we know that cells made by PSI for LifeBatt were green" - not true.
maybe at the beginning
Cells with LifeBatt logo in my HPS pack are grey , they had been grey BMI and LifeBatt cells right to the end of production of HPS packs.
Old LifeBatt web site show numerous pictures of assembled HPS pack with grey cells in them.
Also old BMI site gave clear info on differences between grey and green cells with pictures included .
Explaination that grey BMI /and LifeBatt of course/ cell is latest development , improved green cell.
I remember it very well, I VISITED and read on BMI site many times before buying HPS pack.
So it was not just Bob Macree pointing difference.
Ther must be true to this.
MC

 

[AndyH]

" we know that cells made by PSI for LifeBatt were green" - not true.
maybe at the beginning
<snip>

From page 10 of the attached Sandia report:

View attachment lb_sandia.jpg
Note the Feb 24, 2008 date on the photo. You can also find plenty of images of these dot-matrix printed green cells in a number of posts from Gary and Bob.

Yes - colors did change later on - and one, as you pointed out, was gray.

The point again, MC, is simply that cell color alone is NOT enough to identify a 40138 LIFePO4 cell as cells with different performance and/or made for different retailers had the same color shrink.

Andy

edit...fixed underline...

 

[miro13car]

Yes, Andy, thank you for remainding me and showing picture.
Of course I saw this before.
I didn`t realize it was as recent as Feb. 2008!!!
So it was tested at Sandia Labs at the time I was buying my HPS pack?
And LifeBatt didn,t provide grey cell for testing!!
Why??
All this is so strange.
To add to confusion I found BMI web site during my Google search.
It is now BMI Energy Inc. not just BMI.
http://www.bmi-energy.com/en_US/aboutusDetail.asp
BMI manufacturer of the most advanced ebike in the world??
Jozzer, did you see this?
Notice at the bottom of the page : year 2009, nothing old, relatively new web site.
MC