BMS compatibility with new controllers and battery build 16s9p

[WonderDrift]

Hi everyone! My e-scooter displays E30 and I changed everything except the controllers. The pack is 60v 18.2ah 16s7p and the BMS indicates: 40A nominal 65A max current discharge. Stock controllers are 25A rated and the ones I found that are plug&play are 30A each so will it work with them or it will cut after 5M?
They are cheaper than the old 25A and seems like they improved the quality of them + they’re the same size.

The scooter only have voltage sags and cut offs everything works perfectly


+ I would like you guys know that I’m not an expert but I would like to know your thoughts about my pack, if specialists pack bodybuilders are available to help me out with the best cells, the prep guys are calling me 3 times a day to ask if I decided the cells and finished the specs for providing them all: 47.5cm*12.5cm*9.2cm size
I asked for 16s9p. In this size can it be better to have another formation ? 17s or more series ? I really need autonomy and I have the possibility to use plug and play 72V controllers from the brand. Or something between more optimally sized and better options?

My pack builder is waiting for my decision for the cells to use building my pack (BMS DALY)16s 35ah but they ask the BMS identification number that I have to choose and it’s paid so I’m waiting for my pack but it’s better to wait and sure of the pack I just need the best pack possible knowing I will use it as a racing light category e-scooter in half a year so the pack isAfter simulations I got the pack with 40T fitting all the cells for making it finally 60v40ah/72v30 so I’m a little frustrated because for the 60v40ah the guys told me even without or with the least amount of spacers they can make it but with the height of 11.3cm… because of bms and for respecting the “protocol” imposed by EU
Can I ask them to do something to make it more compact ? Like not using spacers or anything? More than 21700 5000mah cells or new 18650 5000mah is it real ?

The pack is more expensive than the scooter but that’s it so what cells to use ? I don’t have any restrictions maybe having to see if p45b are really worth the cost versus 40T.. so I can make it with 50G, 35E, lishen 4000 10c, 50E, 50S,p45b or Chinese cells. What you think about21700 Sony or a low cost super Chinese cell if they exist?

The 40T are IME just another galaxy compared to others ones, like them for my vape they are very constant and gives you all even more than others at the 10/100 battery 40T.

Vaping experience with the 40T makes me realize how they are incredibly constant, powerful, fast discharge but fast charge too..discharge fast too. confortable in hand not makes heat to have sweaty hands and don’t lose power at the sale time delivering more power way more and constance even chain smoking during my late night shift. With the Sony 21700 and the 40T the tastes is better too compared to others cells.

I’m more interested by the 50G deliver power easily than 50E which is after that they told me used in high end power machines but read here u need a very strong controller to make it draw more Amps from them vs others cells.. honestly they give me the same quotes for both but I would like to have it made with 40T so much after all that I read here.. and my vape + my friend on circuit telling me to use molicel instead (+25% sky rocket the same pack tariff but if its worth I will do that choice)

The 50G losts 20% power and capacity in cold and Here in my region mountainside it’s very cold and it rains almost 85% of the time.

 

[WonderDrift]

The BMS inside the pack is this one Bestway – Bms 16s,45a,60v Pour Batteries Lithium-ion,Bms 16s Pour Batteries Lifepo4,Mantis,Double Moteur,E-scooters - Buy Lithium Battery Protection Board 60v 16s Bms 45amps Seperate Charge And Discharge For Mantis Scooter Battery,E Bike Bms Electric Scooter 18650 Bms Electric Toys Lithium Battery Protect Board Common Port 45a 16s,Daly Bms Lithium Ion Bms Electric Scooter E Bike Tricycle Pcb Lithium Battery Pcm Circuit Protect Board Product on Alibaba.com

 

[amberwolf]

Without knowing what specific controller/display combination you have, or a link to the manual, I can't know what your error code means for sure. But 30 on some of them means communication failure between controller and display. That usually means a broken wire between the two, or damage in one or the other, or if they did not come together as a kit, that they're incompatible.****


**** Controllers and displays are not generally inter-compatible, so if you want a display for a controller, it's better to get them together as a set. If you don't, it's highly likely they will not work together.



For the voltage sag and cutoffs, it means that your battery is not capable of supplying the power your controllers are asking for. So the BMS is turning the output off to protect the cells against damage that can lead to a fire.

To fix that, you'd need to replace the battery with one that has a high enough current (A) rating to supply *more* total current, continuously, than the total of the A ratings of both controllers.

If your controllers are 30A, then your battery must be *at least* 60A, and I would recommend one that can handle 100A, because as it ages it will be less and less capable. Same for in colder weather, etc. Also, if it's a cheap pack, it probably can't do nearly what it claims to, without significant to extreme voltage sag, so getting one that is at least twice as capable as you need means it's more likely to actually work, at least for a while until the cheap cells start failing.

What your BMS claims is only 40A continuous, so if you draw more than that for longer than it's limit (whatever that is) it should turn off all power. Also, your cells must be actually capable of the current you need to draw; just having a BMS that can do it is not sufficient.


If you provide links to all the specific parts you have, we can take a look to see if they show what they might actually be capable of, or other indicators as to quality or capability, etc. Otherwise you'll just have to test things to see what works and what doesn't (you'll probably have to do that anyway).

I moved your thread to the Escooters/Emotorcycles forum out of Ebike Technical because it's about an escooter and not an ebike.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Hi everyone! My e-scooter displays E30 and I changed everything except the controllers. The pack is 60v 18.2ah 16s7p and the BMS indicates: 40A nominal 65A max current discharge. Stock controllers are 25A rated and the ones I found that are plug&play are 30A each so will it work with them or it will cut after 5M?
They are cheaper than the old 25A and seems like they improved the quality of them + they’re the same size.

yeah 30a should be fine if your BMS is rated at 40A/65A. You can probably even go higher than 30A if you want, but it's difficult to say for sure without knowing what cells are inside the battery.
Basically anything that is lower than the maximum rating of the BMS should be fine, but it's always a good idea to keep a little margin, just in case the current sensors of either one of this device isn't as accurate as the other, and also because the cells will age and lose performance.
Anyway, 30A should be ok in my opinion.

The scooter only have voltage sags and cut offs everything works perfectly

What?
I don't understand this sentence. You say everything works fine but it has voltage sag and it cuts? That's not what people usually mean by working fine.
It doesn't make sense, I assume something is wrong with how you typed this sentence or its missing some words so please clarify.

The BMS inside the pack is this one Bestway – Bms 16s,45a,60v Pour Batteries Lithium-ion,Bms 16s Pour Batteries Lifepo4,Mantis,Double Moteur,E-scooters - Buy Lithium Battery Protection Board 60v 16s Bms 45amps Seperate Charge And Discharge For Mantis Scooter Battery,E Bike Bms Electric Scooter 18650 Bms Electric Toys Lithium Battery Protect Board Common Port 45a 16s,Daly Bms Lithium Ion Bms Electric Scooter E Bike Tricycle Pcb Lithium Battery Pcm Circuit Protect Board Product on Alibaba.com

It says 45 amps BMS, so where did you see 40A-65A ?
Here again, it's not clear at all.

 

[WonderDrift]

yeah 30a should be fine if your BMS is rated at 40A/65A. You can probably even go higher than 30A if you want, but it's difficult to say for sure without knowing what cells are inside the battery.
Basically anything that is lower than the maximum rating of the BMS should be fine, but it's always a good idea to keep a little margin, just in case the current sensors of either one of this device isn't as accurate as the other, and also because the cells will age and lose performance.
Anyway, 30A should be ok in my opinion.


What?
I don't understand this sentence. You say everything works fine but it has voltage sag and it cuts? That's not what people usually mean by working fine.
It doesn't make sense, I assume something is wrong with how you typed this sentence or its missing some words so please clarify.


It says 45 amps BMS, so where did you see 40A-65A ?
Here again, it's not clear at all.

The displays don't show the speed and I can't access any other settings except the first 3 seconds it turns on error 10 (QS/S4 or lt01) and displays error 30 on CM06 (the new square display with the NFC. I can ride it however I can't push the RPM too far because when it's launched it works but then if I accelerate full thumb and then stop it for about 7 times consecutively the voltage display when I look at loose like honestly 50% of battery on the display of course so there is a problem somewhere.

Setting max power at 80/100 even with a max setting for acceleration it rides nicely and doesn't have cut-offs or loose power on the display.

The manufacturer sells the pack for the same model has mentioned inside are the same cells : 40A nominal 65A max discharge rate current and it's also on custom battery packs made identical to the stock pack. They have in characteristics the same informations
and
I found on the manufacturer the same model using 27a*2 mini motors controller for USA / NZ / AUS and the battery is the same, I looked in some simulations giving me then the 45A is nominal and adds :

Thank you for providing the parameters inscription. Based on the information provided, it seems like the BMS model is “BestWay BWPB-541F-165-45A-02F30-0509G3G.” From this, we can infer some specifications:

• Nominal discharge current: 45A
• Maximum discharge current: Not explicitly stated, but typically inferred from the model number as possibly around 65A (as you mentioned earlier)
• Other details such as cell configuration, communication protocol, and additional features might also be encoded in the model number, but without further information, it’s challenging to decipher them.

In general, the maximum discharge current is typically a certain percentage above the nominal discharge current. The exact percentage can vary depending on the specific battery chemistry, BMS design, and manufacturer specifications. However, it's common for the maximum discharge current to be around 30% to 50% higher than the nominal discharge current. In your case, with a nominal discharge current of 45A and a maximum discharge current of 65A, the difference is approximately 44%, which falls within this typical range.

 

[WonderDrift]

And of its clean the error that I really need it and give few sags at full throttle I can set the controllers to give the same torque with less too speed ~ 85/100 instead of 100/100 reducing the A output at full throttle.. The blue ones comes in 20 days so... I have to wait for but I'm sure they will rock

 

[WonderDrift]

Without knowing what specific controller/display combination you have, or a link to the manual, I can't know what your error code means for sure. But 30 on some of them means communication failure between controller and display. That usually means a broken wire between the two, or damage in one or the other, or if they did not come together as a kit, that they're incompatible.****


**** Controllers and displays are not generally inter-compatible, so if you want a display for a controller, it's better to get them together as a set. If you don't, it's highly likely they will not work together.



For the voltage sag and cutoffs, it means that your battery is not capable of supplying the power your controllers are asking for. So the BMS is turning the output off to protect the cells against damage that can lead to a fire.

To fix that, you'd need to replace the battery with one that has a high enough current (A) rating to supply *more* total current, continuously, than the total of the A ratings of both controllers.

If your controllers are 30A, then your battery must be *at least* 60A, and I would recommend one that can handle 100A, because as it ages it will be less and less capable. Same for in colder weather, etc. Also, if it's a cheap pack, it probably can't do nearly what it claims to, without significant to extreme voltage sag, so getting one that is at least twice as capable as you need means it's more likely to actually work, at least for a while until the cheap cells start failing.

What your BMS claims is only 40A continuous, so if you draw more than that for longer than it's limit (whatever that is) it should turn off all power. Also, your cells must be actually capable of the current you need to draw; just having a BMS that can do it is not sufficient.


If you provide links to all the specific parts you have, we can take a look to see if they show what they might actually be capable of, or other indicators as to quality or capability, etc. Otherwise you'll just have to test things to see what works and what doesn't (you'll probably have to do that anyway).

I moved your thread to the Escooters/Emotorcycles forum out of Ebike Technical because it's about an escooter and not an ebike.

The scooter is the Kaabo mantis 10 + 60v 18.2ah 2*1000w motors 25A*2 controllers display CM-06 nfc

The controllers are this one : black the original and the blue is the upgraded. Just the blues have one more black wires that’s to be plugged in the mass of the chassis I guess ? Or I don’t touch it and just wrap it around ?


The display

:


The scooter have less than 300kms and was here for long because I had another one that was better on the paper. I sold it and then kept this one

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

The displays don't show the speed and I can't access any other settings except the first 3 seconds it turns on error 10 (QS/S4 or lt01) and displays error 30 on CM06 (the new square display with the NFC. I can ride it however I can't push the RPM too far because when it's launched it works but then if I accelerate full thumb and then stop it for about 7 times consecutively the voltage display when I look at loose like honestly 50% of battery on the display of course so there is a problem somewhere.

Setting max power at 80/100 even with a max setting for acceleration it rides nicely and doesn't have cut-offs or loose power on the display.

The manufacturer sells the pack for the same model has mentioned inside are the same cells : 40A nominal 65A max discharge rate current and it's also on custom battery packs made identical to the stock pack. They have in characteristics the same informations
and
I found on the manufacturer the same model using 27a*2 mini motors controller for USA / NZ / AUS and the battery is the same, I looked in some simulations giving me then the 45A is nominal and adds :

Thank you for providing the parameters inscription. Based on the information provided, it seems like the BMS model is “BestWay BWPB-541F-165-45A-02F30-0509G3G.” From this, we can infer some specifications:

• Nominal discharge current: 45A
• Maximum discharge current: Not explicitly stated, but typically inferred from the model number as possibly around 65A (as you mentioned earlier)
• Other details such as cell configuration, communication protocol, and additional features might also be encoded in the model number, but without further information, it’s challenging to decipher them.

In general, the maximum discharge current is typically a certain percentage above the nominal discharge current. The exact percentage can vary depending on the specific battery chemistry, BMS design, and manufacturer specifications. However, it's common for the maximum discharge current to be around 30% to 50% higher than the nominal discharge current. In your case, with a nominal discharge current of 45A and a maximum discharge current of 65A, the difference is approximately 44%, which falls within this typical range.

It's even more confusing than the first messages.
I don't understand anything you're saying.

Can you try to explain the problem a bit more clearly?

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

The controllers are this one : black the original and the blue is the upgraded. Just the blues have one more black wires that’s to be plugged in the mass of the chassis I guess ?

No. You abolutely never put the ground on the chassis! Electric vehicles aren't like internal combustion engines ones, you don't use the chassis as a ground. Make sure no wire is in contact with the frame, ever.

The scooter is the Kaabo mantis 10 + 60v 18.2ah 2*1000w motors 25A*2 controllers display CM-06 nfc

So this is a dual motor scooter? You could have said this on the first post, obviously that's important...
If each controller draws 25Amps and you have 2 of them then it's drawing 50 amps in total.
Your BMS is rated at 45 amps, so yeah it's expected to cut off.

So obviously it won't work well if you drop two 30A controllers in there, it'll be 60A in total which is now way more than the 45A the BMS can handle.

Again, that's based on the few things we're able to understand from your posts, no offense but the explanations provided so far are very hard to follow.

 

[WonderDrift]

Ok I'll try to be more clear just I'm doing 30 things at the same time (laboratory job..) and I tap fast without translating.

So the scooter is a dual motor vehicle Kaabo electric scooter Mantis 10+ v3 NFC. I tried to plug the eye4 after I sold my ex scooter dualtron in its original shape with eye3 replaced instead of the eye4. I thinked “ok I respect the colors and it will work even without halls but. I put it on the sine waves stock controllers as I thinked only the halls would be out of the equation. (ok I'm a noob but thinked like 2 strokes everything is the same on e-scooters and just marketing so this made the screen light on : but pressing the throttle made a little very low sound in the motors I guess but didn't turned the wheels, every thing indicated was perfect voltage, no error displayed and was set like the Kaabo mantis on its magnets, volts etc.. I switched it off from the eye4 and replaced it with the CM06 stock display that worked wonderful before : e30 appeared. Both of the light strips 12V were fried, I tested them but even with the new hub board that made my front light work again wich I thinked was dead (it didn't light on after 2 weeks of its purchase at 40km~)

But after I put on the CM06 original display I got error 30. Then, the screen cleared this error just after pressing on the screen or if the +, mode, -were only touched so I burned something in it not making contact. But who knows what it has been fried in?
Having to work in 2h I resolved error30 only with +1 and 1/2 turn on every little screws of the display that were not loosethe.


My working hours ended up. Then coming to my house the error 30 again forever and no voltage sags yet. E30 on my Display CM06 instructions indicated:rx communication default between display and controller) and no way to get it like it was this time. 2h later I switched it on to see the voltage, and to see if the error cleared and no way the screen burned but it seems switched on the scooter : the lights are running with this display if I stayed on the power button and I couldn't unlock it with the NFC tag. But pressing the throttle replicated the same little noise in the motors or controllers can not say exactly what happened (the noise of the minimotors eye4 did)


After that I unplugged everything and not used the scooter anymore waiting new components: original new display CM06 + new hub board (the pcb box on the pics) + the complete wiring including pins, jsts, and used a contact spray to clean them like my wife use for her computers to make a better contact + slow 5A fuse (that burned too) + I bought a QS/S4 thumb throttle display that's the same thing as the LT/01 display in reality (used on old Kaabo scooters before they used the LT01) a real one from my city e-scooter store not a copy or whatever to have another option.

The new things were changed yesterday and then CM06 original display shows E30, the QS/S4 displayed E10 then after I pressed the screen or the buttons it got error 00 then cleared. I went to ride it worked but with voltage says and cut off even on the the slowest acceleration settings.
After I switch on the power scooter QSS4 there's no error and I can navigate through the settings with Mode the voltage is exactly like the one taken directly and the cut is now showing E10 after 3 seconds



Also I have an add on : this scooter works differently than the other ones, on their Kaabo tutorial ERROR 30 they say : Display->Wires->red and orange inverted by manufacturer by error(my scooter has them inverted on the display 8 pins jst since the first day and doing like they show in the video it makes noises in motors and don’t accelerate)->controller problem is the precedent are not fixed it

+ I would like you guys know that I’m not an expert but I would like to know your thoughts about my pack, if specialists pack bodybuilders are available to help me out with the best cells, the prep guys are calling me 3 times a day to ask if I decided the cells and finished the specs for providing them all: 47.5cm*12.5cm*92cm size
I asked for 16s9p. In this size can it be better to have another formation ? 17s or more series ? I really need autonomy and I have the possibility to use plug and play 72V controllers from the brand. Or something between more optimally sized and better options?

My pack builder is waiting for my decision for the cells to use building my pack (BMS DALY)16s 35ah but they ask the BMS identification number that I have to choose and it’s paid so I’m waiting for my pack but it’s better to wait and sure of the pack I just need the best pack possible knowing I will use it as a racing light category e-scooter in half a year so the pack isAfter simulations I got the pack with 40T fitting all the cells for making it finally 60v40ah/72v30 so I’m a little frustrated because for the 60v40ah the guys told me even without or with the least amount of spacers they can make it but with the height of 11.3cm… because of bms and for respecting the “protocol” imposed by EU
Can I ask them to do something to make it more compact ? Like not using spacers or anything? More than 21700 5000mah cells or new 18650 5000mah is it real ?

The pack is more expensive than the scooter but that’s it so what cells to use ? I don’t have any restrictions maybe having to see if p45b are really worth the cost versus 40T.. so I can make it with 50G, 35E, lishen 4000 10c, 50E, 50S,p45b or Chinese cells. What you think about21700 Sony or a low cost super Chinese cell if they exist?

The 40T are IME just another galaxy compared to others ones, like them for my vape they are very constant and gives you all even more than others at the 10/100 battery 40T.

Vaping experience with the 40T makes me realize how they are incredibly constant, powerful, fast discharge but fast charge too..discharge fast too. confortable in hand not makes heat to have sweaty hands and don’t lose power at the sale time delivering more power way more and constance even chain smoking during my late night shift. With the Sony 21700 and the 40T the tastes is better too compared to others cells.

I’m more interested by the 50G or 50E but read here u need a very strong controller to make it draw more Amps from them vs others cells.. honestly they give me the same quotes for both but I would like to have it made with 40T so much after all that I read here.. and my vape + my friend on circuit telling me to use molicel instead (+25% sky rocket the same pack tariff but if its worth I will do that choice)

The 50G losts 20% power and capacity in cold and Here in my region mountainside it’s very cold and it rains almost 85% of the time.

 

[WonderDrift]

It's even more confusing than the first messages.
I don't understand anything you're saying.

Can you try to explain the problem a bit more clearly?

Scooter displays error 30 after being tried to connect eye4 Dualtron on sine wave controllers. Since I changed all the scooter except controllers, motors and battery but can’t clean the error 30.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Ok I'll try to be more clear

I'll try to sum up what I understood:
-You tried swapping something named an "eye4". What is this thing? a controller? a display/dashboard? I kinda assume its a display but really not sure.
-You did something with the motor hall sensor wires. We don't know what exactly. Also it's kinda strange that the hall sensors would be wired directly to the screen, that part is really weird.
-You tried twisting the throttle but nothing really happened
-You put back the old display
-The light system wasn't working anymore
-Now an error shows up, indicating the error code "e30".
-You changed the main hub, the wiring harness and the screen with new ones, but it still didn't fix the issue completely
-When you accelerate the voltage sags and it cuts power off


Did you try to lift the scooter from the ground and see if both wheels turn when you apply throttle?
If not, that would indicate that there is a problem with one of the two controllers.

In my opinion, you did something wrong when changing the screen the first time, you probably shorted a positive and a negative wire somewhere. That fried the fuse which is why you lost the lights, but it also damaged some part of one of the controllers, possibly the part which is responsible for the bidirectional communication between the controller and the hub/screen, idk.
That makes this controller unresponsive, and now whenever you ride there's only one controller that works. It works real hard because it has to fight the other motor, so it cuts off. At least that's my guess.

In which case, I suggest you swap the front controller with the rear one and see if the problem follows. If it does, then replace the defective controller.

 

[WonderDrift]

I'll try to sum up what I understood:
-You tried swapping something named an "eye4". What is this thing? a controller? a display/dashboard? I kinda assume its a display but really not sure.
-You did something with the motor hall sensor wires. We don't know what exactly. Also it's kinda strange that the hall sensors would be wired directly to the screen, that part is really weird.
-You tried twisting the throttle but nothing really happened
-You put back the old display
-The light system wasn't working anymore
-Now an error shows up, indicating the error code "e30".
-You changed the main hub, the wiring harness and the screen with new ones, but it still didn't fix the issue completely
-When you accelerate the voltage sags and it cuts power off


Did you try to lift the scooter from the ground and see if both wheels turn when you apply throttle?
If not, that would indicate that there is a problem with one of the two controllers.

In my opinion, you did something wrong when changing the screen the first time, you probably shorted a positive and a negative wire somewhere. That fried the fuse which is why you lost the lights, but it also damaged some part of one of the controllers, possibly the part which is responsible for the bidirectional communication between the controller and the hub/screen, idk.
That makes this controller unresponsive, and now whenever you ride there's only one controller that works. It works real hard because it has to fight the other motor, so it cuts off. At least that's my guess.

In which case, I suggest you swap the front controller with the rear one and see if the problem follows. If it does, then replace the defective controller.

 

[WonderDrift]

I connected the eye4 display designed for squared wave controllers only the led stripes 12v are fried from it + the screen originally used + the fuse. But everything was working except the accelerator even the leds for few minutes then the left side was off and the Right after 30 sec

I always use my elevator for motorcycles to work in my scooters so yes they turn and turn fast but I have the impression that they’re not pushing as before that happens it can be due (for sure in my moon opinion the controllers and also the Display which is known to offer better performances and reactivity versus the original. Even the nami customs are starting to use these Kaabo throttle.

The controllers and the new display were sent few h ago few h ago

The front light the one in front of the handle bars works on 12v and fried few days after I got this scooter, so there’s 3-4 months between the 2 événements (front light not work resolved by the hub board pcb and error 30 done by my noobiness :/

So yes I will swap the controllers but it’s not risking to fry the hub? :/ that thing is 70€ here

 

[WonderDrift]

The Hub board Pcb box indications, without a Y 8 pin to a double y for my alarm and contact key his can I do it easier? It’s not possible to not have it included