Who else even offers this off the shelf? Eco Speed WOW!

[LI-ghtcycle]

I wanted to share some exciting information that I learn at the Recumbent Retreat, Ecospeed was doing a Q & A session, a very low key and informal demo of their product.

I was amazed at what is being offered with the Velociraptor controller made right here in the USA (Vancouver WA IIRC) and this is a Software driven controller that has the ability to be plugged into various battery chemistry & voltage types from 18V to almost 60V, and sense the voltage, and adjust accordingly (default programmed for 24, 36 & 48V LiFeP04).

This controller also has a built-in thermistor (one is also in the motor) to protect things for over-heating automatically, and they are currently developing a very user friendly replaceable chip set that would allow one to be traveling for example, and to have the ability to carry spares & switch out a damaged chip/circuit just as easily as one replaces a battery in a cordless phone! (I forget the proper name for these plugs) no electronics training/soldering or other specialize training required!

The gentlemen I talked with about more of the nuts and bolts of the electrical side of their system also told me that their motors are running around 3000 RPM at their most efficient, and IIRC the reduction is in the neighbor hood of 16 to 1 from the motor to the crank VIA single stage reduction with #25 chain.


I must admit that I too was initially put-off by the price of their systems, however, now knowing the inherent efficiency gains (around 60% in my testing using a crude single stage reduction 9 x 7 DD hub motor) and realizing for all practical purposes this is pretty much a "one off" custom fit to your specific bike, it's really not terribly expensive considering what all they offer.

They manufacture all the hardware to mount their mid-drive systems in-house, and if they don't have exactly what they need for your specific application, they built it!

http://www.ecospeed.com/index.html

We design our systems ourselves and make the critical components in the US. Exact Fit Technology™ is our term for electric assist systems that fit your bike exactly, like they were installed at the factory. Advanced US manufacturing lets us do this. We create parts by computer with turnaround times measured in days. If we don't have the proper parts to fit your bike, we can often just make them.

Another interesting addition that I understand is fairly new, is the in-house battery & BMS system they are selling.

In order to get past the road-block of shipping a fully assembled battery (huge $$$ to have the right to do so) Eco Speed has developed a user-assembled battery using Headway cells and copper buss bar style carriers that allow for ease of replacement of a bad cell, and if shipping (like for a trip from the USA to Europe) internationally, just send the components separately to avoid shipping restrictions.

http://www.ecospeed.com/prodbatt.html

Lithium Iron Phosphate, 10Ah, 51V, Replaceable Cell
Uses 38120 ("M") cells rated for 100 Amps continuous current, over 150 Amps peak. We use high quality cells that will typically give you a real world useable capacity of 95% of rated or better. Cycle life depends on use, but should easily top 1000 cycles. Top of case opens to allow access to cells and BMS. Cells bolt into prewired carriers with plus and minus marked for easy installation or replacement. Useable energy is about 500 Wh. Cells are shipped separate from case to meet DOT lithium battery shipping regulations. Weight: about 17.5 lbs (8 kg) including case, Dimensions: 15.5" L x 7.0" W x 4.5" H (395mm x 180mm x 110mm). Includes 4A fast charger, case with carrying handle, built in BMS, power switch and clip on quick release rack mounting system. Other mounting systems available, contact us for details.

Could you build your own system for less? Possibly, but to get the same results I believe we all would have to admit doing our own R & D and growing in our own individual knowledge and expertise through trial and error many times, we would have to admit we have spent a fair amount of cash getting here.
(Especially for people like me who have just enough knowledge to do more of a "monkey see, monkey do" level of understanding of the battery and electronics stuff )

Here is an off the shelf product that does all these things, and I used to think of their product as the Mercedes Benz of E-Bikes, but now I think Rolls Royce is a better analogy given the level of quality and reliability with this product, and sure, you can get similar performance with something lesser, but I'd challenge anyone to beat their product on the level of fit & finish, efficiency and reliability for much less.

Silva Has ridden her "Myrtle the Turtle" trike with her Eco Speed mid-drive all around the USA with 6500+ trouble free miles (her ping battery has needed cells replaced, but nothing at fault with the Eco Speed drive it's self).

In the future, they are going to house the BMS inside the controller as well so one less separate component to deal with.

Looking back at what I am building now, and what I could have done with the same $$$ starting from the beginning and all the different E-Bike builds I have made, I could have easily spent the same cash on one of their mid-drives and simply ridden it instead of having to develop it. :wink:

P.S. I forgot to mention, the weakest link of any drive that runs through the cranks of an E-Bike is the freewheeling crank, Eco Speed has solved this problem by building their own special freewheeling cranks to eliminate this problem.

 

[Hillhater]

The gentlemen I talked with about more of the nuts and bolts of the electrical side of their system also told me that their motors are running around 3000 RPM at their most efficient, and IIRC the reduction is in the neighbor hood of 16 to 1 from the motor to the crank VIA single stage reduction with #25 chain.

I think you must have miss-heard there.
16:1 is a huge reduction in one stage, and looking at their site, there is no way they have the sprocket sizes to achieve that....
However, even accepting that figure, with the motor at 3000rpm ( slow for a efficient motor ?), and assuming a 16:1 reduction, it means that the cranks are running at 187 rpm ... still way too fast to pedal along with !.

 

[JEB]

I belive you are looking at the 2nd stage that is the visible chain, the first stage is in the black anodized blob that is between the motor and the chain, it is a 4.8~ to 1 planetary gear box.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

The gentlemen I talked with about more of the nuts and bolts of the electrical side of their system also told me that their motors are running around 3000 RPM at their most efficient, and IIRC the reduction is in the neighbor hood of 16 to 1 from the motor to the crank VIA single stage reduction with #25 chain.

I think you must have miss-heard there.
16:1 is a huge reduction in one stage, and looking at their site, there is no way they have the sprocket sizes to achieve that.
However, even accepting that figure, with the motor at 3000rpm ( slow for a efficient motor ?), and assuming a 16:1 reduction, it means that the cranks are running at 187 rpm ... still way too fast to pedal along with !.

Are you sure? #25 chain can be very compact with even an 80T on the crank side.

I admit, I don't have a spec sheet, that was just an off the cuff reply from one of their people who said he didn't know as much about the specifics of the motor as he mainly deals with the installation of the kits and servicing the mechanical aspects IIRC.

I am certain about the 3,000 RPM figure and this is before the single reduction to the crank, but you have to realize too that many of their systems use the bike's front chain rings with freewheeling cranks, and thus the chain rings can be spinning quite fast weather you decide to pedal or not shouldn't be an issue.

All I know is they also have tested for hill climbing ability with no pedaling going up a 16% grade (I believe this was with a "cargo monster equipped" trike) hill with another guy sitting on the back, and this was done with ease.

Don't get me wrong, I am building my own mid-drive and have no plans to abandon it, however, if a couple of years ago when I first started getting into this hobby I had started with one of their kits, I would have a proven system doing everything I am trying to develop on my own, and probably for less money than I have spent so far on different kits/builds.

I will still be using LiPo, and since I have no plans on shipping batteries around, their battery isn't as attractive to me personally, but for a very user friendly first time E-Biker with the cash, I think this would be an excellent system to buy.

The only thing I would have to say is for stealth purposes, their drives make a bit of noise, not as loud as many RC motor systems, but still a fair amount, and of course for this, a DD hub motor is still king of stealth.

I have a tail light that I have used for little over a 1 year now that has stopped working reliably, it worked great for that first year and performed well, but just didn't have the longevity of something designed for true every day transportation.

From what I have seen, many typical E-Bike kits are much like that tail light. It works pretty good, but really isn't designed with the kind of bullet proof reliability as daily transportation vehicle is, more like the typical quality of a recreational vehicle, which is sadly how the industry views bicycles in general.

I will be replacing this tail light (it had a motion sensor and would sense deceleration and automatically turn on a brake light) with something from a scooter with a regular 12V brake/tail light and most likely blinkers too, because although I might be able to cobble something together that will work pretty well, I'd rather have something off the shelf that just works.

Eco Speed seems to have made very nice kits that aren't cheap by any means (you get what you pay for :wink: ), and they just work, are very well designed, and are built to truly replace a car as daily transportation.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I belive you are looking at the 2nd stage that is the visible chain, the first stage is in the black anodized blob that is between the motor and the chain, it is a 4.8~ to 1 planetary gear box.

Oh yes, good call, you're correct, the #25 chain is the second stage, my mistake.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

You know, it's confusing because they have more than one design shown on their site, it would appear they have some pics of earlier models, what I saw was on a recumbent delta trike that was mounted behind the cranks, not using the front chain rings for the motor, but simply acting also as a jack-shaft for the pedals chain to be able to turn the rear axle also.

 

[amberwolf]

It is definitely a good thing that more places are starting to make turnkey systems that actually "just work", and keep working. Without that, the rEVolution is doomed.

Are you sure? #25 chain can be very compact with even an 80T on the crank side.

However, 80T / 16 would be only 5T on the motor, and I expect that'd even if one existed it'd be extremely noisy and wear out so fast as to be silly to use. It'd also probably require an idler to wrap the chain around it so close that incoming and outgoing sides would be nearly touching (and under vibration might touch, increasing wear), just to keep engagement to a maximum for power transfer.

Even using the smallest #25 sprocket I have here, an 11T, and the largest, a 144T, I couldn't get any better than about 13:1 reduction...and that 144T is the size of a very large sawblade. :lol:

So it makes sense that the first stage is the planetary box. (When I was going to do a similar speed reduction on CrazyBike2 with a treadmill motor at 3000RPM+, it would have had a 3:1 poly-v belt stage first, then a 10:1 #25 chain stage...this was tested and did actually work but never made it to the road testing stage for other reasons).

I am certain about the 3,000 RPM figure and this is before the single reduction to the crank, but you have to realize too that many of their systems use the bike's front chain rings with freewheeling cranks, and thus the chain rings can be spinning quite fast weather you decide to pedal or not shouldn't be an issue.

Possibly true, but keep in mind that it also makes pedalling essentially useless for assisting the motor at it's higher speeds. Might not matter to most, but it will to some. I'm not sure how to remedy that with the thru-the-cranks system. On CrazyBike2 it didn't matter, because the motor and pedals were combined later in the path, at a jackshaft.

The only thing I would have to say is for stealth purposes, their drives make a bit of noise, not as loud as many RC motor systems, but still a fair amount, and of course for this, a DD hub motor is still king of stealth.

A good part of that is probably the planetary gearbox.