Who has bought EM3EV's bicycle frames and how do you like it

[brickwall]

Also installed a keyswitch on it yesterday and I think the end result looks very nice. I'm pleased.

 

[cell_man]

Mine came very dirty, which was disconcerting, and the paintjob on the seatpost assembly wasn't great. But EM3ev refunded me to have it painted and all is good. Panel fitment isn't very good with very sloppy tolerances, but the more cool parts I add onto my bike, the more I like the frame. It's a bit shoddy, but for $499 what can you expect?

We are currently charging 449USD for the frame and have been for a little while already, it was what you originally paid (before the additional items and shipping were added). I agree, the outline of the side covers is not perfect, and gaps are not uniform, but they are not structural, they are actually pretty strong and they do serve the purpose perfectly well. Apparently it is rather difficult to find supplier for vacuum formed parts, with perfect finishing, in the relatively small quantities that these frames are built in. These are not mass produced as people seem to believe, they are actually built in fairly small quantities (not everything in China is produced by the 10s of thousand). The frames are not perfect, but I've yet to see anyone come back with a serious issue or complaints on the structural integrity. After visiting a very big and well equipped bike factory recently (not where these are produced), I was quite surprised to hear from them, that a triangle frame is stronger, than a box type structure (with solid side covers), as the latter can't flex like a tubed frame can, and is therefore more likely to form cracks or break in other areas of the bike, which I never really considered before. This factory has equipment to stress test frames and simulate a lifetime of abuse, so I guess they know what they are talking about.

We refunded you 50% of the cost of the frame (or gave you the option to send a replacement, then you ship the frame to the UK, at our cost), when you brought the problem with the paint finish around the head tube, to our attention. So your frame actually cost you 225USD, not the standard price of 450USD (plus the other parts and shipping). This is the first time we have had this happen, and my staff have been told to inspect them more carefully in future, before they ship out. The factory has also been told to keep an eye out for such issues in the future.

Thanks
Paul

 

[brickwall]

We are currently charging 449USD for the frame and have been for a little while already, it was what you originally paid (before the additional items and shipping were added). I agree, the outline of the side covers is not perfect, and gaps are not uniform, but they are not structural, they are actually pretty strong and they do serve the purpose perfectly well. Apparently it is rather difficult to find supplier for vacuum formed parts, with perfect finishing, in the relatively small quantities that these frames are built in. These are not mass produced as people seem to believe, they are actually built in fairly small quantities (not everything in China is produced by the 10s of thousand). The frames are not perfect, but I've yet to see anyone come back with a serious issue or complaints on the structural integrity. After visiting a very big and well equipped bike factory recently (not where these are produced), I was quite surprised to hear from them, that a triangle frame is stronger, than a box type structure (with solid side covers), as the latter can't flex like a tubed frame can, and is therefore more likely to form cracks or break in other areas of the bike, which I never really considered before. This factory has equipment to stress test frames and simulate a lifetime of abuse, so I guess they know what they are talking about.

We refunded you 50% of the cost of the frame (or gave you the option to send a replacement, then you ship the frame to the UK, at our cost), when you brought the problem with the paint finish around the head tube, to our attention. So your frame actually cost you 225USD, not the standard price of 450USD (plus the other parts and shipping). This is the first time we have had this happen, and my staff have been told to inspect them more carefully in future, before they ship out. The factory has also been told to keep an eye out for such issues in the future.

Thanks
Paul

Sorry. Don't get me wrong—I am super happy with the solution you provided, and the frame is definitely worth its full price of [strike]499[/strike] 449 USD when without defects. (It was the seatpost assembly that was faulty.) I just wanted to point out the issue with side covers, which unlike the paint issue is there on all frames. They could fit more snugly and that bothered me a bit initially. They can definitely take a beating though and are very easy to modify for installing buttons and such.

I didn't want to say how much you refunded me in case someone would get pissed.

 

[nutnspecial]

These plastic (PE?) panels look alot nicer than my eastgem/denzel . . . with the shape there has gotta be alot more rigidity to the plastic, and it looks like there's a gasket too. Mine are lacking on both of those fronts, and besides that their price is now something like ~1000$ shipped to us, taking it out of the running as competitive with the others except for possible mid motor mount under swingarm.

I'm not sure if any mods need done on these em3 frame panels, but on mine I was thinking of permanent waterproof fastening of one side (silicone/urethane), and doing a gasket backing/latch mech w/quick release on the other.

Also, that does make sense these open designs allow flex where most appropriate, instead of forcing it into joints.

 

[brickwall]

There are gaskets around the panels and everything absolutely water tight. Even the bolts have gaskets. There is a small opening down below by the swing arm but I don't think that will let in water unless you really soak the bike.

 

[cell_man]

I misunderstood, I thought the frame had the issue, not just the seat mount, which we could have easily replaced. I'm not surprised you thought is was a generous offer, when you get 225USD back, because a 30USD part, has a cosmetic issue. Oh well..

Also, that does make sense these open designs allow flex where most appropriate, instead of forcing it into joints.

Well I had never really considered this myself before this particular engineer said this to me. We're planning to do our own Ebike in the not too distant future (with this particular factory) and the Engineer (ex Giant Engineer) pointed it out, when I was talking about having welded on, alloy side covers, welded onto alloy tubes. His rational is that the triangular tube section will have a certain amount of flex, but adding welded side covers, makes it much stiffer. So instead of the frame flexing, the eternal parts/joints are more stressed, than they otherwise would be, and cracks will tend to appear at the next weakest point. It's probably a mute point, when these frames have long travel suspension to take the worst of the shocks, but its an interesting point nonetheless.

This factory has these test rigs where they basically add various heavy weights to various parts of the frame to simulate a real life scenario, lock all suspension parts, then apply a huge number of repeated impacts (counted, with a minimum requirement to pass). The factory primarily makes escooters (in huuuuge numbers), but the same tests are also applicable to bike frames. It was cool to see how its done and the methods they used to ensure a frame will meet its strength requirements.

Thanks
Paul

 

[brickwall]

Speaking of rigidity, one thing that differs from the Vector frame is the upper rear shock mount. On the Vector there are steel plates on both sides of the frame tubes that the rear shock mount bolts on to, but on the EEB there is only a single plate on the inside of the frame. One could easily add an outer plate, but it seems someone has deemed it unnecessary since it doesn't come with one. What do you think?

 

[cell_man]

Speaking of rigidity, one thing that differs from the Vector frame is the upper rear shock mount. On the Vector there are steel plates on both sides of the frame tubes that the rear shock mount bolts on to, but on the EEB there is only a single plate on the inside of the frame. One could easily add an outer plate, but it seems someone has deemed it unnecessary since it doesn't come with one. What do you think?

The shock mount plate is 3mm thick steel plate, 100mm tall, with a box section at the top for reinforcement on the EEB Frame. It is continuously welded around most of the circumference, where it meets the tubes of the frame. You think that's not enough? Please enlighten us on how it is insufficient for the purpose and what should be done to improve it? I also, don't really see how 2 plates, that are spaced apart I presume, make a better mounting point for 2 bolts and the shock's top mount.

Here's some background to this frame, for any readers (or at least what I know about it )

The reason the upper shock mounting point is so over-built, is precisely because there were some occasional issues on the predecessor to this frame (E-Kross, from Ukraine) and so it was additionally reinforced (and various other changes were made too), when Alex developed his own frame in China, early last year.

My friend Alex, from Evel in the Ukraine, spent months in China developing these frames for production, and they did their best to address any points that he felt could be improved (from experience gleaned from supplying the E-Kross frame) and there are quite a few detail changes at numerous points on the frame and swing arm.

This is far from a carbon copy of the E-Kross frame, that is also re-branded as the Vector bike (Vector do not manufacture the frame BTW, in case people are not aware of that). I guess the E-Kross frame has likely seen some changes since the Evel EEB frame was released last year, to also address any issues they faced in the past. My point is that, this is neither a carbon copy of the E-Kross, nor was it thrown together from a picture, by some Chinese guys, with no idea about the product or the application. I'm reliably informed that E-Kross and Evel shared a booth at a Ukranian Ebike show earlier this year. That doesn't seem like the actions of people that have a beef. Just saying :wink:

Alex came to China to build this frame, not to compete against the E-Kross frame, he came as the frame maker in the Ukraine, were unable or unwilling to supply them in the quantity and to the specification that Alex envisaged requiring. Alex had a vision of providing a good, low cost ebike frame (that cost conscious people in Eastern Europe would/could want to buy), that could accommodate lots of battery, with any hub motor and with full suspension. Unfortunately certain re-sellers of the E-Kross frame have done their best to spread false information about the EEB frame at every opportunity, attack them, and the Chinese factory did what many Chinese factories do very well, and that is to ruin the image of what is basically a pretty good product.

The Chinese factory (more final assembly than actual manufacturer) plastered it all over Alibaba at the first opportunity (to my dismay ), they try to take credit for the frame development (hmmmm, which in their minds, makes them look good, but actually, just makes the product look bad) and sell it to all comers, not respecting the dealers that they are supposedly looking for (especially not respecting the agreements made with Evel, prior to them developing the frame) and together this has basically cheapened/ruined the image. The Chinese factory showed the typical short-sighted, self-centered mentality of many small Chinese factories, where they could see nothing wrong with claiming Evel's frame as their own once it was in production, and supplying direct to anyone they could possibly reach, through 100s of Alibaba listings. The Chinese factory didn't develop this frame, Alex (and his brother) did, they provided the design and worked with them to get the frame put into small production (it is far from mass produced, and it is all outsourced anyway, there is no welding done in Leilli AFAIK).

I wish Alex the best for his future Ebike projects (which will most definitely not involve Leilli) and I hope that more people will get to enjoy this EEB frame. I'm no fan of how Leilli have handled themselves , but the frame is sound, i have no qualms about supplying it, and until i have a better alternative, I will continue to offer it.

Thanks
Paul

 

[brickwall]

The shock mount plate is 3mm thick steel plate, 100mm tall, with a box section at the top for reinforcement on the EEB Frame. It is continuously welded around most of the circumference, where it meets the tubes of the frame. You think that's not enough? Please enlighten us on how it is insufficient for the purpose and what should be done to improve it? I also, don't really see how 2 plates, that are spaced apart I presume, make a better mounting point for 2 bolts and the shock's top mount.

No, I did not say it's not enough. I just pointed out a difference in design out of curiosity. The Vector has a sandwich design which one could easily replicate on the EEB frame if wanted:



But I assume it's not necessary as the shock mount is strong enough as is.

And thank you for that very interesting background story. I was under the impression that Vector did design and manufacture their own frames. Arthur certainly makes it sound like it. I was on the fence for a while when deciding on a frame—the Vector would be cheaper to buy since it's in Europe so shipping is cheap and import fees non-existent, but I ultimately decided to go with the EEB frame because I like shopping from EM3ev and there was much more information available than for the Vector.

 

[Samd]

From the sidelines it is pretty funny watching guys like Leili, Artur etc argue about who copied who first. Its like watching Lada argue with Geely. And hilarious when a few people with frame design experience such as Chalo point out the simple things that could be added beyond the cheap DNM bits and fake carbon.

At least Paul is keeping true to his ethics. He deserves continued credit for that.

Just needed to share my amusement.

 

[GmagNeato]

Finally got some high speed riding in. Have a few thoughts and findings to share rgd the frame.

Handles really well on street at high speeds. The long wheelbase and headtube angle are turning out to be exactly what I was looking for. Flip side is the turning radius is atrocious. Turning this 100#+ beast around in tight quarters is a PITA. But I was somewhat expecting this. For my application of mostly street riding, I'd rather have the stability at speed. I've noticed that when turning the forks all the way in either direction, the bottom crown clamp collides with the frame at the downtube, and I have small cracks at the edge on either side of the plastic covering there due to this. I intended to make up some rubber bumpers for this issue after I installed my fork but I forgot to after completing the build. Probably still will and may also Dremel out a smooth round recess there to remove the cracks and accommodate the clamp protrusion.

Regarding the BB position, I must admit, it could def be moved forward and down a good bit. I am 6' with a 31.5" inseam. I have a moto seat on mine, and even if I'm all the way back on the seat I feel very cramped because of the placement and height of the BB. My knees are bent much more than I'm used to. Luckily I don't intend on pedaling mine much at all, but even just resting my feet on the pedals feels awkward. For shorter riders it's apparently not so bad. I let my 5'8" bro in law ride it and he said it felt great. I could straighten my knees some by using the stock bracket and raising up the seat, but I think I would still feel like I'm reaching back with my feet and it would be hard to touch the ground when I stop.

The dropouts seem to be holding up fine with 9kw bursts and strong regen at 60a batt 200a phase. I did quite a few hard pulls and stops today, and nothing appears stressed, although I plan to pull the hub and inspect axle and dropouts closely in the next day or so before continuing or increasing my thrashing.

 

[GmagNeato]

Thought I'd post a pic of my build so far. 300 miles and going strong. Still a laundry list of things I need to do: install rear brakes, headlight, horn, brake light, turn signals, dcdc, and keyswitch. Oh, and hey Paul.. How bout a kickstand (in black)?

 

[Tom on 101]

Wow cool thread, hey Gmag, how much does your build weigh, just very curious?!

 

[GmagNeato]

Wow cool thread, hey Gmag, how much does your build weigh, just very curious?!

I haven't weighed it yet, but I would guess it's a little over 100lbs, with the motor, battery, and wheels accounting for well over half the weight.

 

[Artur]

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[nutnspecial]

Using a torque wrench on dropouts is a nice test. It's nice of you to post it.

the factory offers the price of 250usd for the frame from 50pcs.. so selling it for 450 is a bit too much for spray painted frame..

This however is not. Unprofessional. Em3 can charge whatever the market will bear for their frames. And any buyer with a noggin will realize they are also paying business overhead, most importantly including intelligent, courteous, and helpful marketing, service, and support that they can understand.

450$ is an excellent price iMo, and even if you offered your stuff that low (and I preferred your metal sidecovers over the vacuum formed plastics. . .), I would not buy from you Artur, simply because of the attitude and stance you make on here.

It's not courteous or gracious, to me.

 

[Artur]

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[Quokka]

As a consumer with a qulbix, eeb and now a stealth on the way I think the best test of any product is what happens if you need any help after the innitial purchase. We have seen in this thread Paul has really gone out of his way to make sure people are happy with their purchase and fixes any issues they have and acts with integrity, which costs money that needs to recouped. If only all the vendors out there acted like that we would be in a much better place. I find it sad when we go through the various threads to see people who get new frames with bent swing arms, or with damaged motors who are then left high and dry. But this is the purpose for forums like this so we can get real insight into various products and vendors behaviours.

 

[GmagNeato]

As a consumer with a qulbix, eeb and now a stealth on the way I think the best test of any product is what happens if you need any help after the innitial purchase. We have seen in this thread Paul has really gone out of his way to make sure people are happy with their purchase and fixes any issues they have and acts with integrity, which costs money that needs to recouped. If only all the vendors out there acted like that we would be in a much better place. I find it sad when we go through the various threads to see people who get new frames with bent swing arms, or with damaged motors who are then left high and dry. But this is the purpose for forums like this so we can get real insight into various products and vendors behaviours.

++1!

 

[cell_man]

Should I order them from China to sell here for 350usd? :lol:

Thanks Artur for paying us a visit, I was feeling a little left out and am a little surprised you didn't come sooner It seems like you pay a visit to anywhere the EEB frame frame is mentioned, no matter Youtube, here on ES, and likely every other channel you can find to further your agenda and spout your angry rants. I see this time you took a slightly different approach.

Go for it, buy 50 plus EEB frames, it's a free World and it wouldn't bother me if you did so. Sell them at whatever price you want too. The EEB frame is a available to me, and it is convenient for me to purchase. I think it is a nice product, I know people that were involved in the development, so I choose to sell it. It is not convenient for me to buy from you, nor does it seem to be within the scope of your business to supply parts to dealers for re-sale.

Judging by your customer feedback on your FS threads, it seems like parts supplied by your company occasional arrive damaged and it doesn't seem like all the customers are satisfied with how such matters are dealt with. Might i suggest that you put more effort into improving your business/service and less effort into making attacks on your competition. Whilst attacking the competition in such a blatant way, may have some effect to hurt the image of your competitors product, but it also hurts your image ALOT. I think customers like to see some integrity and feel that they can trust in their supplier, that the supplier has their best interests at heart and that they will make things right, if there is a problem. Ranting about the competition and making excuses when you have problems, is not a great business strategy.

I have approx 10 full time staff now, we do actually manufacture stuff, we have a small but well equipped factory, with lots of expensive equipment that we paid for, and we've been in business for close to 5 years, starting from just me operating out of an apartment. It is fair to say I have some experience and track record in this business, so maybe you should heed my advice and realize that when you take cheap shots at me (and others), it reflects very badly on you and probably hurts you, far more than it hurts those you are attacking.

Thanks
Paul

 

[Artur]

Should I order them from China to sell here for 350usd? :lol:

Thanks Artur for paying us a visit, I was feeling a little left out and am a little surprised you didn't come sooner It seems like you pay a visit to anywhere the EEB frame frame is mentioned, no matter Youtube, here on ES, and likely every other channel you can find to further your agenda and spout your angry rants. I see this time you took a slightly different approach.

Go for it, buy 50 plus EEB frames, it's a free World and it wouldn't bother me if you did so. Sell them at whatever price you want too. The EEB frame is a available to me, and it is convenient for me to purchase. I think it is a nice product, I know people that were involved in the development, so I choose to sell it. It is not convenient for me to buy from you, nor does it seem to be within the scope of your business to supply parts to dealers for re-sale.

Judging by your customer feedback on your FS threads, it seems like parts supplied by your company occasional arrive damaged and it doesn't seem like all the customers are satisfied with how such matters are dealt with. Might i suggest that you put more effort into improving your business/service and less effort into making attacks on your competition. Whilst attacking the competition in such a blatant way, may have some effect to hurt the image of your competitors product, but it also hurts your image ALOT. I think customers like to see some integrity and feel that they can trust in their supplier, that the supplier has their best interests at heart and that they will make things right, if there is a problem. Ranting about the competition and making excuses when you have problems, is not a great business strategy.

I have approx 10 full time staff now, we do actually manufacture stuff, we have a small but well equipped factory, with lots of expensive equipment that we paid for, and we've been in business for close to 5 years, starting from just me operating out of an apartment. It is fair to say I have some experience and track record in this business, so maybe you should heed my advice and realize that when you take cheap shots at me (and others), it reflects very badly on you and probably hurts you, far more than it hurts those you are attacking.

Thanks
Paul

If someone get hurt on Chinese frame you are selling, what he/she should do? Do you offer any kind of warranty?

I do have dealers in EU and USA. And if you are interested we could talk about it (never heard anything about it from you)..

The frameyou sell is lower quality (metal, painting, side covrers..), and if someone get hurt on that frame, he will never get any compensation or something. some of your clients riding over 60mph. I can assume one frame fail can be the last one for someone..

 

[Artur]

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[nutnspecial]

Go in peace Artur buddy, don't make your reputation damaged!

 

[GmagNeato]

In an effort to maintain the integrity of this thread for the purpose it was originally intended, I just want to set a few things straight. I have no vested interest other than for people to know what to expect with this frame, and how it has performed for ME so far.

It feels very stable at speed (had mine up to, close to 50mph) and the dropouts still look like new (despite running 6KW and at 1 stage closer to 10KW into a Big DD Motor). The bike feels absolutely solid. To be calling this out as if it will fall apart when it hits the first pot-hole, when people are going round on 200USD frames with big batteries strapped to them and several KW of large DD motor on the back of a spindly hard back alloy frame.

I can confirm this from actual experience with the frame. Over 500 miles now. Lot's of potholes. Top speed well over 50 mph. Max power 12kw and I hit that fairly often (whenever battery is HOC ) . Hard stops with regen at 65A. Removed motor yesterday to install a new freewheel and dropouts are fine.

The first pic here is of a moto seat not the EM3EV frame, which isn't relevant at all to the frames integrity. It's a completely separate product and I'm not even sure EM3EV sells it. Good to know though as I do have one of these seats (it's the only one I could find for this frame) so I'll be keeping an eye on it. It's been fine so far but doesn't feel like very good quality.

Regarding the second pic, this would happen to just about any frame available after hitting a tree or some other immovable object at reasonable speed which is clearly what happened here. I don't really see how this is a "frame" failure.

Start with a basic tests like we did for original Vector frame
[youtube]A0OR6ZTuH-o[/youtube]

This is a great test for the dropouts. But the dropouts don't seem to be a weak point for this frame in my experience.

As far as pricing is concerned, it's good to know that I would have paid more if I bought it directly from the factory, and had no real support at all. I certainly would not be purchasing more than 5 frames at a time no matter who I bought them from.

My next frame will be something else and probably more expensive. For now however, with this frame and my second build, I feel I am DEFINITELY getting my money's worth of fun and cheap transportation.

 

[chunder123]

Received my frame yesterday from EM3EV. Early birthday present
Overall, very impressed, quality, packaging, attention to detail, etc.
Except for one thing: one of pivots, which connects swing arm to the frame is slightly bent in, and now won't fit in.
I've tried filing off paint on connecting surface, but it didn't do much.
Anyone else had this problem, and how did you fix it?
Thanks in advance!

I had a problem with the swing arm on my frame the pivot holes did not line up the swing arm straight with the frame bearing but when tightening up the swing arm pivot hole nut area it bened them into place. i'm still not sure if was machined like this deliberately and desinged to bend into place.. i also found a problem with the torque arm plates when pinch clamp bolts were tightened to prevent motor axle slipping out they bended by 0.8mm rendering the motor axle unable to slide through. only way i could get them off was sliding sideways.