Who needs ebikes

[Az.]

Does anyone know what the definition in the Netherlands is?

"The report further points out that all e-bikes, “except pedelecs up to 25 km/h and a maximum continuous rated motor output of 250W, are subject to type-approval”

Netherlands: New Rules Pending for E-Bikers

(Apr. 12, 2016) It was reported on March 25, 2016, that fast electric bikes, that is, ones capable of going up to 45 kph, (about 28 mph) will be treated as mopeds in the Netherlands as of 2017, to conform to European Union regulations on the devices. (E-Bike Users May Have to Wear Helmets...

www.loc.gov

 

[99t4]

Perusing other websites and seeing a lot of trash talk from non-ebikers and a lot of stupid laws pertaining to ebikes, I have come to the conclusion that there is a conspiracy to constrain the sale of ebikes, thus choking the industry to death.

In my area most prospective riders are fearful of mixing with outright hostile vehicle traffic. There is a definite war between bikes and cars. ANY bike infrastructure improvement or advancement (or even plan), however little, immediately gets attacked as another evidence on the ongoing "war on cars." "They want to take away our free parking, our extra lanes, our ability to excessively speed, etc." "I pay vehicle taxes, they need to pay bike taxes." "Nobody ever rides on that road, they're not going to use a bike lane there, wast of taxpayer dollars" (sure, currently it's like a freeway with no shoulder to ride on...).

Sure seems like more cycling infrastructure improvements would incentivize more uptake of ebike riding.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Don't believe everything you read on internet. They can't be measuring power as there is no EU law restricting motor power. They can measure assisted speed limit though.

The limit is 250w. If it goes over 250w it has to be type classified.

 

[Lectriceye]

Laws? I wouldn't say that, but I totally agree there is a conspiracy to constrain sale of e-bikes and electric cars. Media just love to blow out of proportion risk of batteries fires. On another hand they ignore risks associated with petrol vehicles.
You didn't expect petrol lobby to just roll over and give up billions of profits without fight, did you?



What specific rules you don't like?

1. I like speed limits on bike paths, Bike lanes, sidewalks, and multi-use trails/lanes.
2. I like hard speed limiting controllers on bikes of say 15mph, for anyone without a drivers license or Drivers Ed course.
a. Let's face it, the average bicycler can't do better than 15mph on the flats, so now they can go uphill at 15mph.
3. I like more bicycle/pedestrian infra-structure.
4. I don't like power limits or speed controls on any ebike, except 2 above, to a point where it becomes a motorcycle. Choose your numbers, I like 3000w and 40 mph, pedals or not. I am sure somebody besides me can do a better job of figuring out when it becomes a motorcycle. Shall we take a vote? The members of this forum probably have more knowledge about the use, function and abuse of any other e-bike group. It seems logical to me that we should have a coalition aimed at improving the laws for ebikes and reducing the injuries and fatalities from abuse and misuse. I think our politicians would appreciate the input.
5. Beyond the point of becoming a motorcycle it should be street legal,registered as a motorcycle, and require a license.

You asked, I answered

 

[offGridDownUnder]

If it goes over 250w it has to be type classified.

If you read the first version of this I posted (for a few minutes) I deleted most of it. I don't think I was paying good attention to the discussion when I wrote it.

I think the part I left below is worth posting:

Both politicians and law enforcement can and do misinterpret the law as written - sometimes because the law as written makes no sense (defining pi as 3 is an extremely egregious example that was attempted). Perhaps there is a jurisdiction that defines motor power as an absolute, never-exceed measurement - there is still room for interpretation. As a concrete example of this, look at any configuration of a motor in the Grin Simulator - at the bottom, you will see several values measuring in watts for the same system, and having different values.

The details WILL make a difference. Is it the power out of the shaft to the ground? Is it the total electric power flowing into and through the motor - which includes the energy that will be dissipated as heat?

The exact same overall electrical power flow will result in very different physical behaviour depending on whether the motor is turning slowly under load (climbing a hill) or rolling along a flat.

And separately from the physical reality is the interpretation the courts (and law enforcement before them) settle on. Courts are not subject to the laws of physics - they ignore those all the time.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Apologies, but there is very little information in this statement.

What is your source?

Here is the Government source for the Netherlands:

Welke regels gelden voor mijn elektrische fiets (e-bike, elektrische bakfiets en fatbike)?

Voor een elektrische fiets gelden dezelfde verkeersregels als voor een gewone fiets. U hoeft bijvoorbeeld geen rijbewijs te hebben. Een elektrische fiets mag trapondersteuning hebben tot een snelheid van 25 kilometer per uur. Ook een fatbike is een elektrische fiets.

www.rijksoverheid.nl

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Here is the Government source for the Netherlands:

Welke regels gelden voor mijn elektrische fiets (e-bike, elektrische bakfiets en fatbike)?

Voor een elektrische fiets gelden dezelfde verkeersregels als voor een gewone fiets. U hoeft bijvoorbeeld geen rijbewijs te hebben. Een elektrische fiets mag trapondersteuning hebben tot een snelheid van 25 kilometer per uur. Ook een fatbike is een elektrische fiets.

www.rijksoverheid.nl

Thanks. In the time between my post and now, I edited my post as among other things, I think I was rude to you. If you like, you can read my updated post.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

If Google Translate returns the actual content of the law, then the law is ambiguous for reasons I pointed at in my post above.

There is no physically definitive meaning provided by that law for '250 watts'. An engineer can measure several different characteristics of the same motor and prove several different values. Grin's interpretation is as good as any, and might be acceptable in that jurisdiction - Grin is run by actual, knowledgeable, expert ebike engineers.

It may be that the law has no further interest in defining the measurement, but if there are court cases, some clarification will result (even if it's something unreal).

I'll look for a better engineering definition of what the officers measure with that dynamo - that is at least a practical definition of what qualifies, and an example of what other jurisdictions might follow.

And similarly, I'll look into what Australia does to determine. At least now. After some more collisions (real bad for the victim, and gaudily hyped by the news cycle) that approach may change.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

The details WILL make a difference. Is it the power out of the shaft to the ground? Is it the total electric power flowing into and through the motor - which includes the energy that will be dissipated as heat?

The exact same overall electrical power flow will result in very different physical behaviour depending on whether the motor is turning slowly under load (climbing a hill) or rolling along a flat.

1.) I've never seen a motor rated by input power.

2.) The Dutch law states maximum power of 250w:


That would mean an output power beginning with cold controller and cold motor under a load.

 

[Az.]

1. I like speed limits on bike paths, Bike lanes, sidewalks, and multi-use trails/lanes.
2. I like hard speed limiting controllers on bikes of say 15mph, for anyone without a drivers license or Drivers Ed course.
a. Let's face it, the average bicycler can't do better than 15mph on the flats, so now they can go uphill at 15mph.
3. I like more bicycle/pedestrian infra-structure.
4. I don't like power limits or speed controls on any ebike, except 2 above, to a point where it becomes a motorcycle. Choose your numbers, I like 3000w and 40 mph, pedals or not. I am sure somebody besides me can do a better job of figuring out when it becomes a motorcycle. Shall we take a vote? The members of this forum probably have more knowledge about the use, function and abuse of any other e-bike group. It seems logical to me that we should have a coalition aimed at improving the laws for ebikes and reducing the injuries and fatalities from abuse and misuse. I think our politicians would appreciate the input.
5. Beyond the point of becoming a motorcycle it should be street legal,registered as a motorcycle, and require a license.

You asked, I answered

What you wrote makes a lot of sense. Except point 3. I would like more cycle infrastructure as well, but you cant write a law "there should be more cycle lanes".

As for the rest... it is exactly how law is written. At least where I live.

 

[Az.]

The limit is 250w. If it goes over 250w it has to be type classified.

250W is a limit on continuous rated power as specified by manufacturer. It is NOT motor power output. It is NOT motor power input.

Here is a link to relevant European law:

https://www.flecc.co.uk/m/EN15194%20document.pdf

Amazon is using cargo e-bikes for deliveries. They are all classed as 250W rated road legal EAPCs. Real power output of those things must be far more than 250W. In fact almost all e-bikes sold in shops peak well above 250W.

Amazon launches first fleet of e-cargo bikes in the UK

Amazon’s electric delivery vans, e-cargo bikes and walkers will make more than five million last mile deliveries a year across Central London.

www.aboutamazon.co.uk

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Amazon is using cargo e-bikes for deliveries. They are all classed as 250W rated road legal EAPCs. Real power output of those things must be far more than 250W. In fact almost all e-bikes sold in shops peak well above 250W.

Amazon launches first fleet of e-cargo bikes in the UK

Amazon’s electric delivery vans, e-cargo bikes and walkers will make more than five million last mile deliveries a year across Central London.

www.aboutamazon.co.uk

Those Amazon delivery cargo e-bikes made by EAV are rated at 250W continuous power:

Electric Assisted Vehicles Limited

UK Cargo bike manufacturer. Industry leading and award winning heavy ecargo bike 2023. Eav Bikes.

eavcargo.com

And my understanding has been the EU law is one where motor output was rated by continuous power. I even mentioned that earlier in the thread---> Who needs ebikes

But Netherlands can make that criteria more stringent if they want to. Just like they can lower power assist from 25 kmh to 20 kmh if they want to.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Yikes!

detachable battery packs are submitted to free fall at a height of 0,90 meter in three different positions.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Here is a link to relevant European law:

Thanks for that. Much to digest there.

 

[Az.]

Those Amazon delivery cargo e-bikes made by EAV are rated at 250W continuous power:

Motors are rated by manufacturers. Motors don't have power. Power is determined by controller and it changes all the time. As long as you have properly labelled motor by manufacturer, it is legal regardless how much power it uses.

But Netherlands can make that criteria more stringent if they want to. Just like they can lower power assist from 25 kmh to 20 kmh if they want to.

Yes, but it would be silly since Netherlands is part of EU.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Motors are rated by manufacturers. Motors don't have power. Power is determined by controller and it changes all the time. As long as you have properly labelled motor by manufacturer, it is legal regardless how much power it uses.

What the motor is rated at and is labelled at doesn't matter.

If the bike puts more than 250w continuously to the ground then it has to be type classified.

 

[Az.]

Thanks for that. Much to digest there.

It is just tip of an iceberg. What you need is not to pay attention what is written on internet here and there as people get confused about law all the time (governments included). What you need is to find a lawyer and a cyclist on your local forum who would be willing to go through all relevant legislation and translate it to simple English. We are lucky to have one on our UK Pedelecs forum.

 

[Az.]

What the motor is rated at and is labelled at doesn't matter.

If the bike puts more than 250w continuously to the ground then it has to be type classified.

Where are you from if I might ask?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Where are you from if I might ask?

From the land of people who aren't fooled by power ratings stamped on motors.

 

[fill]

From the land of people who aren't fooled by power ratings stamped on motors.

Cliché or watt!!

Perfect!

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

My understanding is that the rating is not defined as "never exceeds 250W instantaneously" but rather something like "stops working if it exceeds 250W for a period of 5 minutes or more". The SX2 I had on my trike would pull 900W going up a very steep hill nearby, but would presumably go into thermal roll-back soon after (the hill is too short to find out).

Here is how EU determines maximum continuous power:

Regulation (EU) No 168/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 15 January 2013 on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles (Text with EEA relevance) (c. 168)

Regulation No 85 of the Economic Commission for Europe of the United Nations (UN/ECE) — Uniform provisions concerning the approval of internal combustion engines or electric drive trains intended for the propulsion of motor vehicles of categories M a

op.europa.eu