Why are LiFePO4 costs still high?

[wb9k]

Which is why so many of us in the climate protection movement have consistently called for an end to ALL subsidies for the oil & gas industry, which are substantial.

Name one..../

The Iraq war for a price tag of going on 3 trillion dollars, when you include veterans affairs. I don't know what world you guys come from but its certainly not mine. And pleaaasssseeee don't tell me that war wasn't for the oil. The entire modern military-industrial complex has grown to secure access to and tanker shipping of oil & gas production around the world. Frell & frack all that crap jack!

This is my position as well. A nation can make no greater subsidy than to go to war to secure a continued supply of any given commodity. If the government made the industry pay for this support, the pump price would already be totally uncompetitive with electric. This is why I say that these costs are largely divorced from the pump price. Then there's the health and environmental costs--one of the primary drivers behind the shift to electric in China.

 

[arkmundi]

Thanks for the voice of sanity and reason!

 

[Punx0r]

If A123 can apply the same tricks they used on lifepo4 to other, more energy-dense cell chemistries then I look forward to seeing what they come up with. The A123 lifepo4 cells are just so far ahead of of all others in terms of performance and quality. 1-2C cells? No thanks!

It would be nice if someone would make 18650 or 26650 NCA or NCM cells that would do a genuine 10/20C sustained/peak discharge

 

[Dauntless]

ALL subsidies for the oil & gas industry, which are substantial.

Name one..../[/quote]
The Iraq war for a price tag of going on 3 trillion dollars,[/quote]

BZZZZT! WRONG! NOT a subsidy of the industry, you lose all credibility by pretending it is.

I don't know what world you guys come from but its certainly not mine.

I live in reality, where if you hold up 4 fingers I'll say it's for fingers, no matter how hard you scream it's five. I live in a world where I not only get to say I don't see your new clothes, I also get to tell you that YOU ARE NOT THE EMPEROR! Reality does not bend and alter just because you want to fake something.

Oh, by the way, how much oil company stock do you and/or your retirement account own?

This is my position as well. A nation can make no greater subsidy than to go to war to secure a continued supply of any given commodity.

And you're WRONG, as well. Yes they can greater subsidy of the industry, any subsidy at all is greater, because that war is not subsidizing the industry AT ALL. Unrelated. You don't get to pretend it is.That is a goofball president fulfilling a campaign promise to invade Iraqi, a promise that helped him finish a close 2nd in the election, as well as 54% of the population supporting that war don't forget. Whether you admit it or not I feel sure you supported it at the time. Are you saying 54% of the population are the oil industry? Well, the public at large does own all the oil stock. I was reading an article this week where the oil companies were referred to as "The 99%." That's before we discuss that 99% of the population are USING 99%, or more.

Thanks for the voice of sanity and reason!

Hey, anytime. It's not so much a pleasure as a relief to be. It's real frustrating when you guys refuse to be, you ultimately are the enablers to the bad things that happen.

 

[dnmun]

no, you do not live in a reality that makes sense. just argumentative over trivial redneck reactionary ideas.

if you have something useful to say then say that and stop putting other people's words in quotes and making your stupid arguments about them.

 

[arkmundi]

The Iraq war for a price tag of going on 3 trillion dollars,

BZZZZT! WRONG! NOT a subsidy of the industry, you lose all credibility by pretending it is.

Well there you go again Dauntless. Don't know why I bother to respond. Let me say this so you understand, maybe:
When corporate America EXTERNALIES costs, it IS A SUBSIDY. First the war machine. But externalizing carbon pollution is the cost that IS INTOLERABLE.

I don't know what world you guys come from but its certainly not mine.

I live in reality, where if you hold up 4 fingers I'll say it's four fingers, no matter how hard you scream it's five. I live in a world where I not only get to say I don't see your new clothes, I also get to tell you that YOU ARE NOT THE EMPEROR! Reality does not bend and alter just because you want to fake something.

No you don't. Like everyone, you live the reality YOU perceive, which can be significantly constrained, expecially in the information age. So it doesn't matter that the consensus of 99% of the world scientific community, which actually knows climate science and can on that basis make predictions, AGREES on the basic facts. Since YOU perceive differently, you'll insist that your take on reality is the real reality. Its what we call ignorant arrogance, and unfortunately there are all too many of you! Frack your own brain if you want a correction.

no, you do not live in a reality that makes sense. just argumentative over trivial redneck reactionary ideas.

if you have something useful to say then say that and stop putting other people's words in quotes and making your stupid arguments about them.

Ditto that! :lol:

 

[wb9k]

Ahh, but what vehicle do I want that uses a 'starter'? None. What vehicle do I want that uses a hybrid pack? None.

EV's have already reached critical mass here in the Bay Area, people view technologies that spray carcinogens in peoples faces as old tech they are done supporting. I realize that the awareness has not reached all places yet, but in my home area where I'm weaving between rows of Model S and Nisan Leaf etc at every traffic light on my roadbike, I can tell you the future has simplified beyond technologies that require 'starting' to work or idle-stop functions etc.

What you and I, and a number of people in the bay area want is simply not indicative of the wider world. I see Volts all over the place here. Pure EV's are out there, but much harder to come by in this area. It's great that you see Model S's and Leaf's all over your town, but the fact remains that Tesla's profitability still depends on selling pollution credits to other carmakers. GM is Tesla's biggest customer. Pure EV's are still being sold at steep losses by major manufacturers. Example: GM's price for the pack in the Spark was well over half the sticker price of the car. The only reason they even produce the Spark at all is that they must do so to continue selling cars in California. Same with the Fiat 500e, and others. China is embracing EV's with greater zeal than just about anyone, yet in China's passenger car market, EV penetration remains tiny. This will change, but if you think EV's will be mainstream before millions of gassers (and then probably CNG cars) with stop/start are built, I can only suggest that you are out of touch with reality. Neither the regulatory leglislation around the globe, nor the auto industry are poised for this trajectory, primarily because nobody is anywhere near being able to fill that market gap today.

My wild hunch is it has something to do with LG having a path forward for desirable EV cell energy density and consistent reliable product quality. I'm with you on the pack capacity though, I would rather have the 21kWh pack than the 19kWh pack as well. Hopefully the 19kWh will soon be ~25kWh-ish or something when LG finally rolls some more modern chemistry into production. .

Energy density and price via economies of scale (GM sites this benefit themselves in their recent press releases) are the edge for LG's metal oxide chemistry. I would suggest those are probably the only real benefits to them. They're certainly not safer, nor do they handle quick charging as well. I could go on. I happen to think there are some process synergies for GM that enable the LG cells to possibly accomodate the rather primitive balancing controls employed by GM, but I doubt either one of them is aware of it. I want to stress that this is the happenstance result of materials flow process, not because LG makes a more reliable cell. I happen to have a good friend who works at LG Chem in the EV division. I could be wrong, but talking to him, I get the feeling A123's business prospects for automotive batteries are probably much better than LG right now.

With no $$ Cobalt in the cathode mixture, in theory it should have been substantially cheaper than NMC or NCA to buy the materials. In practice, for reasons I don't understand, the cathode materials always ended up costing about the same as those featuring exotic expensive metals.

It may interest you to know that A123 is spinning off it's powder plants in China, giving the following justification: The LFP powder plants have also been running way below capacity for their entire lives. Because they are capable of producing powders for other chemistries, it makes sense to let a powder specialist buy the operation so the plant can run closer to capacity and they can sell the LFP powder to A123 for less that is has cost A123 to produce it themselves historically. This is a time of consolodation in the industry, and probably nobody is experiencing more change than A123. A123 has also sold off its grid business to NEC, while retaining that operation as a customer for cells. They've also opened up their R&D arm, A123 Venture Technologies, for offering research and engineering services to other battery makers. It's already a significant source of revenue for them. Given your view of where the car market is headed in the near term, perhaps the "reasons you don't understand" here are also primarily related to economics.

My dream battery uses no exotic metals (like LiFePO4), cycles to last beyond life-of-vehicle (like LiFePO4 can in a well designed pack), has inherent intrinsic safety, can support >4C charge, and has at least >400Wh/Kg specific energy. That isn't a pipe-dream, it's inevitable, and it will empower the rapid conclusion of this foolish infernal-combustion age we currently find ourselves.

I also believe we'll get there, but I don't feel a need to cast aspersion on other battery makers in the process. I don't want other Li battery makers to have big problems, because at this stage in our industry, all players get hurt because of perception. I am just as anxious as you to see the end of the ICE era, but I still think PHEV's are the best solution we can hope most car buyers to opt for right now. Charging infrastructure and range limits of affordable EVs make them an impractical option for too many people, even me.

 

[dnmun]

charging infrastructure and relatively affordable EVs are easily achievable. most people have 240V 200A service in their homes.

within months, the entire country could have charging plugs capable of supplying 7.2kW at the curb or in the driveway apron for people to charge. it is only the regulatory burden of guvment requiring us to do it according to the their corrupt practices that makes it difficult.

i never spend money on cars because i can buy them cheap so i was able to buy at auction a ZENN that i can use to drive all over the city, but not on the highway. i spent about $1900 for the car and about $1200 to supplement the gel VRLA battery with another 124Ah of lifepo4 and lipo to get me the range that allows me to drive for hours around the city, but not on the highway.

again, the limit on what i can do with an 'affordable' EV is restricted by the guvment to low speed streets. these cars were made unsalable by the guvment rules established by the major auto manufacturers to eliminate competition with ICE cars imo.

we, as a world of individualized transport users have to consolidate transport to fewer and fewer vehicles with lower and lower overall CO2 emissions to reduce the impact that is already certain to make future generations struggle to survive the damage that will be done to all the major ports and population centers around the world. the sea level rise is not gonna be stopped. it is not clear how many centuries this will go on so it would be even difficult for future generations to decide where to move the coastal populations and restore ports if they will also be submerged within another few decades or centuries.

small minded deniers have no comprehension of the dynamics which have now already been released. this is now gonna become the primary burden of mankind. billions of people to relocate, loss of energy sources, loss of access to resources and food as climate change renders agriculture impossible throughout most of SE asia and literally billions of people will starve, attacking all the western countries in endless cycles of terrorism raids for all time.

 

[liveforphysics]

EVs work even with only having access to a dryer plug at home.

Some massive portion of people's commutes are satisfied perfectly by a LEAF.

This truth awareness has already saturated our local area. EV acceptance has been achieved because it makes sense and is a more enjoyable driving experience. Rent a car if you need to drive somewhere far away that lacks CHAdeMO infrastructure. In the bay, we have throughly deployed a totally useful and abundant DC fast charge infrastructure.

I am fully aware that the rest of the world hasn't yet caught up. However, seeing living real world proof that a large population can rapidly switch to use of EVs has shown me a preview of what will be inevitable, because EVs work. EVs are also only going to rapidly get better.

 

[zener]

EVs work even with only having access to a dryer plug at home.

Some massive portion of people's commutes are satisfied perfectly by a LEAF.

This truth awareness has already saturated our local area. EV acceptance has been achieved because it makes sense and is a more enjoyable driving experience. Rent a car if you need to drive somewhere far away that lacks CHAdeMO infrastructure. In the bay, we have throughly deployed a totally useful and abundant DC fast charge infrastructure.

I am fully aware that the rest of the world hasn't yet caught up. However, seeing living real world proof that a large population can rapidly switch to use of EVs has shown me a preview of what will be inevitable, because EVs work. EVs are also only going to rapidly get better.

How can u pay the charge in your home area?

Here in EU its very sick in my home area there are 3 companys who have build (not fast) charging stations all 3 u only can pay with a registered card witch cost u about anual 60Euro for 1 of the 3 companys. no cash pay possible (very huge disadvantage) who ever want use this??? Everything here is ICE orientated. They all are still teaching the young mainly about ICE, together with the media brainwash its the perfect 'no change now' atmosphere.

To the topic: lifepo4 is cheap compaired to gasoline over its full lifetime. But its expensive compaired to the raw material cost. I guess its provit we all want 8)

 

[Hillhater]

EVs work even with only having access to a dryer plug at home. .

Plenty of dryer plugs, 240 v high amperage supply in most of the world..
..but unfortunately a huge proportion of western population live in cities that were built without vehicle access to every individual dwelling or even private parking spaces.
Anyone in an apartment block or even many newer developments in cities may well have no permanent vehicle parking location.
Shame , because Cities are where the EV's are most needed.

 

[arkmundi]

we, as a world of individualized transport users have to consolidate transport to fewer and fewer vehicles with lower and lower overall CO2 emissions to reduce the impact that is already certain to make future generations struggle to survive the damage that will be done to all the major ports and population centers around the world. the sea level rise is not gonna be stopped. it is not clear how many centuries this will go on so it would be even difficult for future generations to decide where to move the coastal populations and restore ports if they will also be submerged within another few decades or centuries.

small minded deniers have no comprehension of the dynamics which have now already been released. this is now gonna become the primary burden of mankind. billions of people to relocate, loss of energy sources, loss of access to resources and food as climate change renders agriculture impossible throughout most of SE asia and literally billions of people will starve, attacking all the western countries in endless cycles of terrorism raids for all time.

Very well stated.

Its the current 2014 perspective, based on new science on the melting of the Antarctic, where we get a hard wake up call. Its the realization that ohmygod, this is really happening and its really bad. I knew about 2009, but only because I remained on the bleeding edge of climate science and ascribed to the Lovelock Prophecy. James Lovelock wrote a seminal book in his Gaia serices, The Vanishing Face of Gaia. His thesis was that we had four IPCC Assessment Reports (one every 5-6 years, now five reports), and that in each instance, the science based reality was much worse than previous predicted, worse then each assessment report's worse case scenario. As he explained, its because we don't know what we don't know and the feedback loops are far more extensive than previously anticipated, and because of, every trend is accelerating.

So for all you survivalist make a fortune types - buy inland real estate now! Hahahaaa.... no really. It won't be worth anything because an economy like we've become accustomed to won't exist, so the value of currencies. But you can grow food (or try to) and use that as in every previously difficult and turbulent times to barter for what you need.

Oh, divergent thread. Why are LiFePO4 costs still high? Because the cost of conventional fuels is low, by design. So people continue to drive ICErs. And demand for EV's and LEV's thereby remains low. And the production of the battery manufacturers remain too low to reach threshold. Maybe this latest wakeup call will not go unheeded and we'll see the paradigm shift we so desperately need.

 

[Ykick]

The eUtopia Luke resides is a wonderful and welcome thing. Unfortunately, most places in USA/NA don't enjoy coastal CA weather and must deal with the range-killing effects of bitter cold temperatures. Battery gurus should recognize ramifications of EV operation in less than ideal temperatures.

It doesn't make the mission impossible but it makes for a much harder sell in RED areas already skeptical and just looking for anything to discourage wide spread battery EV transportation. Even those who genuinely want to make it work will likely become disenchanted when their EV range drops 50% in deep freeze conditions?

There's still a whole lotta work to do....

 

[wb9k]

EVs work even with only having access to a dryer plug at home.

Yes, I know. I own two PHEV's that are perfectly happy with Level 1, but can also accept Level 2. I have long been saying that the "need" for public charging infrastructure is greatly overstated--for local driving.

Some massive portion of people's commutes are satisfied perfectly by a LEAF.

No news here.

This truth awareness has already saturated our local area. EV acceptance has been achieved because it makes sense and is a more enjoyable driving experience. Rent a car if you need to drive somewhere far away that lacks CHAdeMO infrastructure. In the bay, we have throughly deployed a totally useful and abundant DC fast charge infrastructure.

You mean rent a car that runs on an ICE? Do you hear yourself talking here? Think that through. This means that every time somebody needs to drive 100 miles they either have to run out to rent an ICE, or they need to buy the $70,000 Model S. Maybe this doesn't happen much for most folks in southern CA, but again, this is not representative of the wider world, where this is a regular occurance, and often in places where NO public charging infrastructure is reliably available. It makes more sense to buy a PHEV like the Volt than to do what you are saying, IMO. Best of both worlds, and full EV driving most of the time.

I'm able to meet most of my cargo carrying needs with the Prius (much to the surprise of most people who invariably tell me "that won't fit" right before it does with ease.) I'm already in the routine of renting a truck once or twice a year when I need to. People I know are starting to see that this makes a lot more sense than owning a pickup truck as a commuter vehicle (pays for itself in one tankful), but renting a car for every 100 (or 200 or 300) mile trip is going to be a MUCH tougher sell.

I am fully aware that the rest of the world hasn't yet caught up. However, seeing living real world proof that a large population can rapidly switch to use of EVs has shown me a preview of what will be inevitable, because EVs work. EVs are also only going to rapidly get better.

I agree it's inevitable, but we are not there today, not yet. A123 already went broke once banking on the idea that this would happen very quickly. Reality disagrees--and rather vehemently, I'm afraid. The statements you make here completely ignore the immediate economic realities. No comment on the steep losses incurred by OEM's with every EV they sell? How long do you think they could tolerate that if EV's were all they were selling?

 

[zener]

The eUtopia Luke resides is a wonderful and welcome thing. Unfortunately, most places in USA/NA don't enjoy coastal CA weather and must deal with the range-killing effects of bitter cold temperatures. Battery gurus should recognize ramifications of EV operation in less than ideal temperatures.

It doesn't make the mission impossible but it makes for a much harder sell in RED areas already skeptical and just looking for anything to discourage wide spread battery EV transportation. Even those who genuinely want to make it work will likely become disenchanted when their EV range drops 50% in deep freeze conditions?

There's still a whole lotta work to do....

The heat from motor can be used to keep battery in temperature in combination with good insulation it costs not much energy.
It cost more energy to cool the battery in hot sun.

I guess its more range killing driving in hot sun than in cold winter.

 

[Ykick]

The eUtopia Luke resides is a wonderful and welcome thing. Unfortunately, most places in USA/NA don't enjoy coastal CA weather and must deal with the range-killing effects of bitter cold temperatures. Battery gurus should recognize ramifications of EV operation in less than ideal temperatures.

It doesn't make the mission impossible but it makes for a much harder sell in RED areas already skeptical and just looking for anything to discourage wide spread battery EV transportation. Even those who genuinely want to make it work will likely become disenchanted when their EV range drops 50% in deep freeze conditions?

There's still a whole lotta work to do....

The heat from motor can be used to keep battery in temperature in combination with good insulation it costs not much energy.
It cost more energy to cool the battery in hot sun.

I guess its more range killing driving in hot sun than in cold winter.

Good in theory but applications seem to indicate cold weather issues. My coworker with both Volt & Tesla sees almost 50% drop in battery pack range starting his commute from a protected, somewhat heated garage where he also parks underground while in the city. Can only imagine a car left in a deep freeze parking lot during a work shift?

Cooling everything in hot sun is another problem too - lucky for most coastal environments there's really not much extreme one way or the other.

Don't get me wrong - I wanna see EV's replace the putrid ICE nonsense but I'm merely pointing out a significant obstacle many of us can only theorize about. Temperature extremes can and probably will complicate the already tenuous acceptance of EV's in everyday life in some parts of the world.

 

[wb9k]

Good in theory but applications seem to indicate cold weather issues. My coworker with both Volt & Tesla sees almost 50% drop in battery pack range starting his commute from a protected, somewhat heated garage where he also parks underground while in the city. Can only imagine a car left in a deep freeze parking lot during a work shift?

Cooling everything in hot sun is another problem too - lucky for most coastal environments there's really not much extreme one way or the other.

Don't get me wrong - I wanna see EV's replace the putrid ICE nonsense but I'm merely pointing out a significant obstacle many of us can only theorize about. Temperature extremes can and probably will complicate the already tenuous acceptance of EV's in everyday life in some parts of the world.

Most of that range loss is due to the batteries also having to provide power for heating the cabin, not because of the cold (which also has an effect, but not nearly as severe). Extreme heat is a bigger enemy, robbing virtually all battery types of significant calendar life.

 

[Dauntless]

These people have you to thank that I'm reporting their charger is broken. (Vandalism? Not so sure this was accidental.) http://www.chargepoint.com/ From the dust settled on it I'd say it's been down a little while, must not be a busy charger.

How can u pay the charge in your home area?

Mr. Physics is referring to using a wall outlet to charge a low power consumption bike. Before you consider how people charge away from home, consider the ease so many CAN charge at home. (But not all.) I've never been there, I'm given to believe you're not standardized across the continent. I guess you have 100v to 220v at 16a. In the U.S. we have a conventional "Hair Dryer" outlet at 125v/20a. Entry level EV. And I've always heard our electricity is more reliable than yours, but my neighborhood will have 10-20 short power failures over the course of the year.

Nearly 70 million single family houses can get 240v/40a power (4x the little wall outlet) whether it's installed or not. If not I'd be surprised if a phonecall couldn't get it in maybe a week. (Maybe in some rural areas it's a problem.) You'd need an outlet that serves the garage, obviously. Townhomes, attached to one another but each unit with it's own garage I'd expect the same thing. Just so you understand that Mr. Physics is saying that perhaps 75% of America can charge at least a small EV at home, though without the 240v you'd be driving your Tesla maybe twice a week.

Apartment dwellers might not have a garage or any outdoor charging. I knew the guy who wanted one of my Vespa style scooters I used to fix but he couldn't carry it up to his apartment to charge. This was a scooter that would be safe to get over 30mph on and comfortable enough to spend a half hour at a time on going over 10 miles.

Ah, now onto the fun part of what you asked. Mr. Physics and I are at near opposite ends of the State of California. Which used to have maybe 97% of the public chargers in America. And 10-15 years ago they were FREE. Not that you could use them all, they have varying plugs, etc. And literally a number of them rotted away where they sat.

Still, there are chargers at a lot of City Halls, some are still free. I know a guy that lives in (The People's Republic of) Santa Monica, a place of free chargers in the park, unless that's recently changed. And him unable to afford one with the range to get him to work. (At the moment, anyway.)

I went to look at the Chargepoint near me at Walgreens real quick before the Indy 500 started. Whenever I think to check another Walgreens as I go by they have one. This one said it'll take credit cards, debit cars, etc. The website has a link to get a Chargepoint card, so maybe those stickers are out of date. Haven't used one, I can't explain it. But they claim over 17,000 chargers, over 5,000,000 charges, they even guess at over 100,000,000 miles driven on their charges.

Oh, they even have a link to request they put in a station near you. I've even talked to apartment dwellers who say they rarely get to charge their Volt but like it just fine anyway. Don't know if they need to get a Chargepoint installed near home and work or what.

I just want to remind YKick that just those living in Mr. Physics Utopia Zone (Also known as the Peoples Republic of Northern California) alone could bring a huge expansion in useage, raising the national average dramatically. In my weather I could make some 5,000+ annual miles on a 40+ mile roundtrip vehicle, if it wasn't going to cost more than I could get for my car and truck both and still not meet half my needs. Tantalyzing. (Isn't that more appealling with a 'Y'?) All our low numbers, it's all the PRNC's fault for setting such a bad example.

To the topic: lifepo4 is cheap compaired to gasoline over its full lifetime. But its expensive compaired to the raw material cost. I guess its provit we all want 8

16, 24, 32. . . .

 

[wb9k]

charging infrastructure and relatively affordable EVs are easily achievable. most people have 240V 200A service in their homes.

within months, the entire country could have charging plugs capable of supplying 7.2kW at the curb or in the driveway apron for people to charge. it is only the regulatory burden of guvment requiring us to do it according to the their corrupt practices that makes it difficult.

i never spend money on cars because i can buy them cheap so i was able to buy at auction a ZENN that i can use to drive all over the city, but not on the highway. i spent about $1900 for the car and about $1200 to supplement the gel VRLA battery with another 124Ah of lifepo4 and lipo to get me the range that allows me to drive for hours around the city, but not on the highway.

again, the limit on what i can do with an 'affordable' EV is restricted by the guvment to low speed streets. these cars were made unsalable by the guvment rules established by the major auto manufacturers to eliminate competition with ICE cars imo.

we, as a world of individualized transport users have to consolidate transport to fewer and fewer vehicles with lower and lower overall CO2 emissions to reduce the impact that is already certain to make future generations struggle to survive the damage that will be done to all the major ports and population centers around the world. the sea level rise is not gonna be stopped. it is not clear how many centuries this will go on so it would be even difficult for future generations to decide where to move the coastal populations and restore ports if they will also be submerged within another few decades or centuries.

small minded deniers have no comprehension of the dynamics which have now already been released. this is now gonna become the primary burden of mankind. billions of people to relocate, loss of energy sources, loss of access to resources and food as climate change renders agriculture impossible throughout most of SE asia and literally billions of people will starve, attacking all the western countries in endless cycles of terrorism raids for all time.

You're saying freeway speed limits were established to render EV's unsellable? Surely you don't mean that--EV's didn't even really exist when most modern roads were built, certainly not when the freeway systems around the world were conceived.

I agree with much of what you're saying here, but do remember that you were able to do what you did with the ZENN because you have a skill set that is still quite rare, not to mention the motivation to use it. This is simply not a solution for the masses--it's really little more than proof of concept.

 

[arkmundi]

Don't get me wrong - I wanna see EV's replace the putrid ICE nonsense but I'm merely pointing out a significant obstacle many of us can only theorize about. Temperature extremes can and probably will complicate the already tenuous acceptance of EV's in everyday life in some parts of the world.

Refer to earlier post of A123 specs and its operating temperature (-30 to 55 C, -22 to 131 F). I don't see ambient temperature being an issue. Cabin heat on my eBike in a NE winter - another thermal layer. There are all kinds of excuses people will posit for not taking personal responsibility for their carbon footprint. Ultimately, its merely a lack of imagination.

 

[Dauntless]

Well there you go again Dauntless. Don't know why I bother to respond.

I know you bother because you like to be a bother. No amount of you're being abusive makes your fantasies true.

no, you do not live in a reality that makes sense. just argumentative over trivial redneck reactionary ideas.

No, I live in a reality where this weekend is about how we don't let petty tyrants menace the truth into silence. I'm the one that's making sense as you spout your delusions. And as you spout your HATE SPEECH, which I have so USEFULLY quoted. Ooops.

Delude yourself however you wish, but don't rage when people tell the truth about it.

Ditto that! :lol:

Imagine my surprise.

 

[7circle]

Why aren't LiFePO4 affordable?

After all the BS liscencing NiMh tech to Panasonic for Prius limited size packs, I tend to think things are all about patent control.

Patent battles will detirmine who is successful.

O r just look who is backed by companies like Sumitomo or Directors with ties.

The usual suspects will obtain control of the tech.

When Kia/Hyunda/Daewoo need anything for their cars the License it from someone else.
Imagine the $$$ from the qty of sales into North Asia.

But watch what india does. They tend to be more independent in there ways. or more links with Russia.

Cold operating temps is the biggest killer.
Climate CHANGE is the unknown. if winters get colder batteries needing warmers will cost heaps on the kwh/km.

Where do you bet your $$$ superanuation future.

Lion-Poooo Looks very efficient at charge discharge.
The differnt Chemistries have so many operating characteristcs it's hard to compare apples to apes. they start to look like lemons watermelons and habeneros. And Lead can be rhe Jack-Fruit.

I wonder sometimes about how cheap and nasty carbon and alkaline primary batteries are.
SHIT how many mega tons of those POS the push out a year.


I wonder howmany whrs of Thundersags have been made over the last 15years?
No big price drop.

Laptops/PDAs/Phones they're not really Low Cost and the have built-in obscilensce.


I'll put a cork back it now.

 

[liveforphysics]

You guys do know EVs are working in Norway right now? It's cold there.

While the rest of you focus your efforts on reasons EVs 'aren't ready' or 'don't work', the areas that adopted them are just happily living an EV reality already.

 

[liveforphysics]

I have an analogy for this thread.

I'm riding in a plane flying along enjoying the ride. Plane rides are a normal accepted thing. While flying along you hear people yelling up to you to let you know planes can't fly. Or that they only fly in your area because it's got special air.

I'm sure Justin feels the same every time someone tells him he can't run a successful business with only a cargo - bicycle.

The sooner you direct your efforts towards looking at reasons EVs can work rather than won't work, your area will also get to stop getting around in carcinogenic fartboxes.

 

[silentflight]

The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed.