Why tesla with DD motor has massive torque and we need gear?

cwah

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Hello,

I was wondering why tesla cars have so much power, torque and efficiency on a direct drive motor....


While on our electric bike we need to play with geared motor, mid drive and other trick to have enough torque?

Is there something missing? Why can't we have a direct drive with massive torque on our bike without relying on gears??

If it's weight, what is the threeshold to not need gears? 10kg motor?
 
Tesla is not direct drive. It as most go through a reduction gear train.
_MG_8093.jpg
 
Ever hear of google?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Tesla-cars-not-need-a-gear-system-and-why-does-a-gear-system-make-sense-only-for-combustion-engines
I don't know what makes you think we need gears on ebikes. More power from a dd motor only requires more voltage, more amps, or both. That's why I run 88.8V and 40A controller. Just make sure the motor doesn't burn up by putting to much current into it for long periods of time, or get a motor rated for more watts, and/or wound for a slower rpm if it's better acceleration you want. Or use a smaller wheel to do the same thing with a faster wound motor.
 
cwah said:
While on our electric bike we need to play with geared motor, mid drive and other trick to have enough torque?
Gears are giving you torque with a smaller motor, but never the power, speed, silence and reliability of a big DD motor.
When you say we need to temper with gears, you're wrong. Those who do, chose to do so. I would, if the advantages would be overcoming the hassle. Right now, no bicycle geared or mid drive motors can compete with a big DD hub, and motorcycle rigs are too heavy.
 
MadRhino said:
Those who do, chose to do so. I would, if the advantages would be overcoming the hassle. Right now, no bicycle geared or mid drive motors can compete with a big DD hub, and motorcycle rigs are too heavy.

Can't compete in your scenario. I switched from a big front DD to a Q100H because I had four flights of steps I had to carry the bike up/down and a no riding ramp on the Sydney Harbour Bridge that i had to push the bike up. I also got a lot of questions/comments/insults about having a "cheaters" bike and questions (thankfully not from police) about legality.

The Q100H has needed a lot more maintenance and I've burned one out, but the lower weight, stealth and no resistance when pushing/coasting has been worth it.

As you said, my choice, but in my scenario, the geared motor does compete, and wins.
 
cwah said:
Hello,

I was wondering why tesla cars have so much power, torque and efficiency on a direct drive motor....


While on our electric bike we need to play with geared motor, mid drive and other trick to have enough torque?

Is there something missing? Why can't we have a direct drive with massive torque on our bike without relying on gears??

If it's weight, what is the threeshold to not need gears? 10kg motor?

You are wrong on the Tesla not using gearing,...as pointed out by speedmd.
But you are on the right track about weight !
Torque is related to the amount of copper in the motor, and copper is heavy,.....which is exactly what we don't want on a bicycle...as Sunder explained.
So we go for any one of many compromises of less power/ geared motors, or mid drive cassette gearing! or heavier motor.+'more amps for that high power, gear less drive that you want.
It just depends weather you want a light pedal bike with power assist, ..or a heavier powered bike with pedals to rest your feet on !
 
It sounds like OP is wondering why the Tesla isn't using a transmission with several gears (as opposed to a single-speed reduction) I believe if Tesla was limited on how many amps, and overall power it could use...I believe they would definitely use a transmission, either a 2-speed or a three speed.

Tesla has very specific performance goals, and they were originally using a 2-speed transmission in the prototype. Halfway through the development, they had a couple of design breakthroughs that allowed them to achieve their performance target with a simpler, lighter, and less-sexpensive one-speed system.

The Tesla uses high voltage, and it is an expensive one-speed system. That design philosophy is easily translated into an ebike. Custom frame designed to hold a big enough battery to provide 100V and 100A (10,000W), run it through a QS rear hub with a low Kv with a top speed of only 50-MPH...when traction becomes an issue, add a second motor to the front (a MXUS?).

Luke / LFP has done the big-motor-high-volts-and-amps thing several times, and has raced gasoline motorcycles and cars. In fact, didn't he race a Tesla at the track once?...
 
The problem here is one of nomenclature, people say "torque" when what they really mean is "thrust". Torque is the absolute twisting force the motor produces while thrust is the linear force at the outer circumference of the tire. It is the linear force, the thrust, that you feel pushing you down the road when you twist the grip and that varies directly with the rolling radius of the tire, smaller radius higher thrust, larger radius lower thrust for the same motor/controller/battery combination. The other variable is speed, with a given motor the more thrust you get from it per amp the less speed you will get at any given voltage, to an extent you can trade thrust and speed and getting an optimized system is finding the balance between the two that works best for you on your machine with your particular riding circumstances, weight, hills, stops, top speed needed and so on.

With just about all DD drive motors in a normal size bicycle wheel like a 26" the gearing is too high, too much speed and not enough thrust. With the 9C DD motors I'm familiar with the thrust is much better in a 20" wheel than a 26" and the whole system operates more efficiently with lower current drain, almost as much top speed and better acceleration/hill climbing ability.

The tradeoff though is that smaller tires don't roll as well and are rougher over bumps.

Everything about ebike design is balancing different requirements, every place you gain one thing you lose something else and everyone wants something a bit different.
 
Ergo, Tesla does have a gear reduction in one of two ratios:

• 9.73:1
or
• 8.27:1

Tesla also uses an AC Asynchronous motor rather then a Brushless DC. For the AC motor from 0 to roughly 60 RPM the motor torque is stifled a bit compared to a BLDC as the rotor bar magnetic fields are created via inductive coupling and field collapse takes place before the angular gap distances are within optimal range. After a bit of RPM is gained torque rises pretty quickly.

On a BLDC motor the rotor magnets are always energized which isn't optimal for torque as they pass the field coils. Not too big a problem at lower speed, but at higher speeds generally fewer poles are are necessary to operate efficiently at higher RPM. The AC motor has a bit of the same effect but much less as the rotor bar fields collapse.

AC motors are much more tolerant of rotor slip; that is when the rotor doesn't rotate as fast as the field coils are switched.

Size and power levels of the two motors isn't scalable in a linear manner. Under about 10,000 watts a BLDC motor of a given efficiency can be designed to be smaller and lighter weight. Over about 40,000 watts the AC motor will be smaller and lighter weight.
 
I need enough power to be able to always get away at starting point as car are so dangerous.

My current 2KW direct drive leaf motor is by nowhere having enough trust... even bus can catch up with me on acceleration.

So what set up can give me enough torque to be sure I can escape cars on all starting point?

What motor and power level? I'd also need a decent 40mph I think on faster road.

My current set up is 48V leafmotor on 20" wheel. 35A controller.
 
Just by going to a higher voltage will help your acceleration, why not go 18s and grab yourself a controller that can handle it, you can get yourself a cheap greentime controller or buy yourself a grin controller that can do 36 to 90 volts at 40 amps.
You have the option of a Lyen 12 fet 45amp controller also, so many options out there for what you want to do and they are all easy enough to purchase from so many retailers out there.
 
cwah said:
I need enough power to be able to always get away at starting point as car are so dangerous.
My current 2KW direct drive leaf motor is by nowhere having enough trust... even bus can catch up with me on acceleration.
So what set up can give me enough torque to be sure I can escape cars on all starting point?
What motor and power level? I'd also need a decent 40mph I think on faster road.
My current set up is 48V leafmotor on 20" wheel. 35A controller.
Double your voltage will double your power for acceleration and almost double your top speed. You can also increase acceleration by raising the max amps of the controller if you don't need more top speed. Do a 50% shunt mod and increase your max amps to 52.5A. You'll notice the difference.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31643
 
An ebike doesn't need gearing. But look at it this way: getting the most power out of a motor means pushing it's thermal, mechanical, and electrical limits. Since bike wheels rarely spin more than a few hundred RPM, you would not be anywhere near the mechanical limits a well designed DD hub motor. DD motors make up for this by being heavier and larger diameter, thus raising thermal, electrical limits as well as mechanical advantage from the diameter to compensate. Of course, gearing carries weight, losses and reliability issues so the trade off isn't free, but many times it is worth it.
 
Increasing phase voltage cannot increase acceleration - only increasing phase current can increase torque and thus, acceleration. There are situations at high speed where phase current is limited by a lack of pack voltage (BEMF is too high by comparison), but this is still, at route, a lack of current.

Anyway, some comments in a page linked to by LockH elsewhere (http://hackaday.com/2015/11/16/ev-motor-not-powerful-enough-make-your-own/) have some interesting comments:

Many of those re-wound motors are also completely misunderstanding the point. Electric motors are inefficient at producing high torque at low speed – they’re efficient at producing high power at high speed. If you wanted to get more torque/acceleration/power at low speeds, you should use a reduction gear and sacrifice your top speed, because then your batteries would last about 30% longer than by simply re-winding the stator for higher magnetic flux.

Also, rewinding the stator with more turns per coil increases the inductance of the stator, so your top speed drops anyways; impedance is frequency dependent, so as the drive frequency increases the motor starts to draw less current and puts out less power. You essentially shift the peak power to a lower RPM.

So while you gain torque and power output at low speeds, you lose power/torque at high speeds. You could do the same simply by changing the final gear ratio of the bike without adding the extra weight of all that copper wire, which would let the motor run faster and more efficiently as it is.

The problem is that VFD is not efficient below 40% of the nominal design speed of the motor, so re-winding the motor for a lower speed range is not as efficient as simply gearing it to run faster.

It’s not very different for PMDCs. The main point is that below some frequency the impedance of the motor is not sufficient to keep the stator current from saturating – typically by hitting the output current limits of the controller – and once that happens you start to waste power.

As long as the current keeps growing, energy is being stored in the magnetic field, and that energy gets transmitted to the rotor. When the current stops growing – when it hits coil resistance or controller limits – then you’re simply heating the copper without adding any energy to the field, and the longer you keep doing that during the cycle the lower your efficiency is going to be. At the ultimate low frequency, trying to maintain static torque is going to have zero efficiency because the rotor does not turn, therefore it’s not doing any work and there’s power input but no power output.

As a rule of thumb, VFDs become useless below about 25% of a motor’s design speed, and if you need to run the motor that slow, you should either double the number of poles or add a reduction gear. That however doesn’t mean that people won’t try, and most commercial electric cars for example basically sacrifice efficiency for not having to include a simple two-speed gearbox.

I suspect his argument is a mixture of both correct and incorrect statements. Anyone care to offer a technical critique?
 
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