Will this setup work?

[saad274]

Okay this thread started with me being an idiot seeing videos on youtube and doing no research on e bikes, since changed my aim's completely and this thread will hopefully evolve into an ebike build thread that will help new starters like me, I'm gonna leave my initial ill-informed question below so you can gauge my start to finish mentality :lol:


I've picked the On One Deedar, found one local, similar to this one: https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycles/on-one-deedar-mountain-bike/1334240023
Mainly because of the steel frame and the supposed stability at speed.
I want to pair it with a 52v 17a battery and the bafang m620 ultra motor
https://www.cloudsto.com/ebikes/lithium-battery-pack-52v-13ah-ts-detail.html
&
https://www.cloudsto.com/ebikes/motors/bafang-m620-ultra-drive-motor-detail.html
Do I absolutely need a controller like the Phaserunner? I've already blown my budget with these so if so, then no ebike for me, unless someone can advise a more affordable battery/motor combo I can do on the deedar?


Edit: I'm looking at using a Bafang BBSHD now, and a full suspension as advised, currently looking at a Kona Stinky, next step find dimensions to see if I can fit a 52v pack on it!

 

[AngryBob]

Can't see the bike, motor won't fit the frame, and no, you absolutely don't.

 

[saad274]

Can't see the bike, motor won't fit the frame, and no, you absolutely don't.

thanks, okay I'll look for a different frame in that case, really hard to find steel ones :/ guessing it's even harder to find one that fits the motor!

 

[HK12K]

You can use that frame if you want, just not with that particular mid drive. There are a handful of other mids which should presumably work and any number of hub motors as well. Most here would likely recommend full suspension though, and I'd agree.

Controllers, you can go cheap or expensive depending on budget and needs.

 

[amberwolf]

thanks, okay I'll look for a different frame in that case, really hard to find steel ones :/ guessing it's even harder to find one that fits the motor!

You have to buy a frame made specifically for that specific motor system, because it *is* the bottom bracket.

If you're set on that system, you will have to look for frames taht specifically say they were made for that specific model of that specific system, or it will not fit.

Or you will have to buy the weld-in mounting section of the frame from one of the manufacturers, and build your own frame around it (or possibly modify an existing frame by cutting out the whole BB area and replacing it with this...but you'd have to be able to weld aluminum, and heattreat, etc).

Also, the system includes the controller and display, so if you want to use it with a different one, you'll have to hack it to make it work with whatever you're choosing.


I'd recommend reading up on the bafang m620 ultra system before you go any further, because it sounds like you may not have sufficient info about it to proceed.

There are a few posts that mention it, and some that go into greater detail, if any of htem are useful
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=m620&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
otherwise, looking at the manufacturer pages for the system and for bikes that use it, and various dealer pages may give you sufficient info to plan your build.

 

[saad274]

I've opted to go for a Bafang BBSHD, looking for full suspension frames/bikes that can fit this kit, although finding measurements to see if the battery will fit is another story! Many thanks for your help guys

 

[AngryBob]

You might try describing what it is you are trying to achieve, what terrain, riding type, speed, distance, load carried, etc. as opposed to just picking the latest fad with apparently random selections.

There are a LOT of pros and cons to each selection, some basic research needs to be done, and you do not appear to have made much of an effort at all in this direction.

To start at square one, do you have a lot of big hills to climb and do you enjoy replacing chains and rear gearsets on a regular basis, and do you have any sort of knee problems?

 

[saad274]

Some hills, I will be planning on using it mostly off road, on canal routes, but we also have a ton of trails, now I'm not experienced riding trails on a bike, but ideally having one that can keep up with me as I learn very fast is ideal, it's mostly flat where I live, any inclines are no more than 10-15%

Apologies for the lack of research, I build electric skateboards, all terrain and street styles, you can pretty much just punch your ESC, motor and battery combination, pick a nice deck (decks need a bit more consideration as to stiffness and depending on the style of ride) together and be good to go, but I'm learning quickly bikes are a different league all together.

I would start with just cruising, and then work my way up to the trails, I think by the time I become better (if) I'd switch to something built with a higher quality components. This is just a starter for me, to see if I enjoy the hobby, I like to dabble a bit, and if I like, I go all in, it's what I did with ESK8's and race drones.

I'm 18 and have no knee problems, with the (albeit clearly limited) research I've done, I'm leaning towards a Kona Stinky at the moment.

 

[saad274]

I also have no problem replacing chains regularly, but I'm not a speed freak, nor would I like to be using the throttle much either, keeping it on lower gears to not put strain on the chain and motor will be my goal, on this bike particularly, future ones, well that'll be different. Speed, max speed of 25 and I'll be happy, I mostly want to use pedal assist though, and off road I wouldn't be going anywhere near 25

 

[AngryBob]

Doesn't seem as if the extra expense and maintenance of the crank drive is a real benefit. Don't forget some loss of ground clearance, as well.

You might examine a decent DD hub motor. If you are at ALL interesting in future, um, performance enhancements, this is the platform to start with. Heavier, but essentially for more performance just provide for more cooling and pump in more power. Other types of drive just don't have the headroom. DD hub also inherently more reliable.

Battery chosen is a bit extreme unless major range is needed, recommend look at advanced BMS with communication and ability to charge at specified voltages other than 100% charge, also chargers with charge limits for 80-90%, these can greatly extend battery lifetimes.

Check the simulator at Ebikes.ca for performance and range specs of various kits, he also offers many excellent products, and something you should know is this is a dealer who owns this website, yet does not plaster his products all over it or even state his ownership in any way. A class act whom somebody looking for hi-quality product should certainly investigate.

Is Canada in the EU? Are you?

 

[Rassy]

Welcome to the forum saad.

One small issue, it seems that many new members neglect to enter their country when signing up. In your case when you mentioned a speed of 25 we have no way to figure out if you mean 25 MPH or 25 KPH.

Unlike Bob, I am a big fan of crank drive systems for casual riding like you are describing, and even the need for suspension is a very personal choice.

I just mention the above because you indicated that you will probably advance to different uses for your bike as you learn and experience more. Many on this forum start planning their next build as soon as the first one is done and often end up not only doing several builds but having more than one bike in the stable for both backup and also for different uses.

So starting simple and relatively cheap can make a lot of sense. Good luck with whatever project you tackle.

 

[saad274]

Oops, yeh I forgot to mention MPH, I'm in the UK,

Okay I'll take the advice on and go back to what I was initially looking at, DD Hub motor, I almost kinda settled on the crank drive since I could move it to the next project when needed. Again with the 52v 17.5a battery, it's one less purchase I'd need to make in the future.

Doing my research I definitely want a full suspension, as when the time comes it'll come in handy, I've now got my eyes on a Giant Anthem (2011 model, I'm wanting to go pre 2011 on the bike I choose, as I've learnt the bottom bracket is more favourable to have when it comes to installing the BBSHD or other bafang models, without needing adapters and other bits and peaces) I want to limit the complications I run into, the Giant Anthem frame triangle is fairly spacey compared to most other full sus bikes, in fact the Trek Fuel and Anthem's from what I've read are decent donor bikes to use for conversions.

I'll check out ebikes.ca, but it'll mostly be for inspiration since I'm in the UK it'll be too expensive to buy from there.

Now ground clearance is an issue I brushed off initially, gotta go back to the drawing board once again!

I think there's going to be a lot of newbies like me, who see people like Andy Kirby (true story this is how it all started) on youtube, with a crazy 4000w of power on a bike and think to myself, frock yeah I gotta do that, without realising it's not as simple as it seems so I will update this thread and hopefully it will evolve to a successful build, from a delusional noob who wanted to stick an incompatible motor onto a completely random frame, to a successful e-bike build!

thanks for your help so far Angry(nice)Bob and Rassy!

 

[AngryBob]

DD hub is more easily changed to a different bike than crank drive, and virtually all the bikes I have seen with owners hot-rodding to 4000 watts are running them. Some here would call 4K wattage tame.

Do some looking at high-power rigs. Start simple, but with upgradeable equipment. Look up Statorade and Hubsinks, and check out the rigs that need them.

If performance is what you want, a proprietary pedelec for the European market is just about the farthest thing from that. This is what you started out with. If still stuck on a crank-drive, look at Lightning Rods stuff, also the Cyclone, and compare against the DD drives, of which there are many.

 

[goatman]

you know the phaserunner has to run sensorless on andy kirbys bike? I know hes trying to figure out a fix but? and the 30T battery pack has an issue. I like Andy Kirby and his channel, you know he will figure it out but it will be a high maintenance bike, that's not a bad thing if you like to play with bikes. you can try hanging the battery under the kona. I hung a 13s5p on my sons kona coiler. I should get pictures of that build but heres a pic of how I made it and tested it on my marin, no problems.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103989

 

[saad274]

Okay so I've started to read up more on hub motors, DD and geared hubs, but I've also changed my plans for what I want to use the bike for

I'd like to add that I'm not a big dude, I'm 5'7 and weigh 58kg (127 pounds)

I've realised with running a 17a battery, it's possible for me to make it to the Peak District, it's our national park in the UK, full of hills, trails and mountain views, would definitely be awesome for me to ride there, it's around 20 miles away though, so I'd need range, serious range, as just the trip alone would be approx 40 miles, followed by actually climbing and exploring it.

Using statorade technology would definitely be advantageous to me, since I'd be eliminating the overheating aspect by a significant margin, but then I'd be hit with the limiting climbing ability of the hub drive, I think climbing at low speeds with the hub would also be much more inefficient vs the crank drive too? As the efficiency curves of some of the motors seem to indicate they operate better at higher rpm, so climbing trails with the hub would be a no go, not due to the heat, but due to the battery being drained too quickly, is this logic correct or am I completely wrong?

On the otherhand, making that 15-20 mile trip, would be advantageous on the hub drives, maintaining that consistent speed, over the crank drive. it seems the crank drive would be more advantageous once I'm actually at the location and want to start exploring and climbing at lower speeds.

Would I be able to use a geared hub drive in a similar way to the crank? i.e, using a lower gear for higher torque so the motor spins at a higher RPM instead of struggling to get me moving, or at my weight level it would be okay for me to use hubs for that purpose?

With the crank drives, would completing a 20-25 mile journey (50 miles) followed by some riding at the peak district be detrimental on my chain (I'm sure I can find better quality ones to withstand me having to change them every 1000 miles or so)

What about range? I *DO* want to pedal, I don't want to sit there using just the throttle, would a 1000w hub get me better range with the same 52v 17a battery over the mid at the same speeds? Most of the info and videos of comparisions between hub and mid's are of older hub motors, not some of the newer offerings released in the past year or so.

I guess what I'm ideally looking for is a higher toruqe, but lower end speed hub drive, since it offers me the reliability that I want, consistent 20ish mph speeds, but I'm not sure how it'd fair up with being offroad, due to weight, limited low end torque, and supposed low efficiency at lower speeds. This is why I think I need to go with a crank drive, stick it in the lower pedal assist modes thus giving me a ton of range

edit: I've since found a 21a 52v battery of similar dimensions that will fit on the downtube, so I think this will alleviate my range concerns, still, with my dilemma of hub vs crank, where both will have an advantage on different parts of my ride, which do I go for?! arghhh I really cannot have two bikes

 

[AngryBob]

Ah, you are suffering from what is called "mission creep".

Efficiencies related to range haven't really changed much in the last couple years. Spend some more time with the simulator. Low speed problems other than heat not all that major, yes a higher percentage of power applied is wasted but less power is applied and little time is spent here. Powered hill climbs lasting 3-5 minutes, or more, depending on motor, cooling, ambient temp, grade, load, amount of pedaling, etc., can be a problem, this is where the simulator time helps.

The key is to keep "low" speed at or above 50% of max speed, as a general rule. A young fella with strong pedaling should be able to do this, outside of the Alps or something.

Pedal assist is absolutely available with hub motors, virtually all, depending on the controller. Throttle not mandatory.

You are looking at at least one full hour of saddle time each way. That is a long time.

Depending on the ground you wish to cover while in the park, total saddle time is a possible no-go. If you have not actually done a similar ride, ABSOLUTELY do this on a borrowed bike of any type before spending any significant cash on this plan. I mean just spend 2-3 hours riding around the block, it gets old. I find an hour is getting to a maximum, YMMV.

The bike which would be great in the park is not the bike to make the round trip. A bike which would make the round trip without 3-4 hour charging time would not be so great in the park. BUT, IMO the second is more do-able than the first. I should point out here that my interest, and my build, was focused on making long road trips but not AT ALL on riding trails. Light weight. NO suspension. NO wide tires. BUT, better seat for comfort and wider tires than a "road bike". Steel forks. Frame not a weight weenie. The road trips where the main focus, off-road not even an interest but light trails, hill climbs certainly doable, but jumps, hard landings, the capability is just not there as it was sacrificed for range, which was necessary.

You are going to need some serious compromises, I would strongly recommend an extensive course of reading to get a better handle on what will work best for you.

You haven't looked hard at geared hubs, particularly small ones, have you? You want RANGE, and are OK without high speeds, now you are close to the motor I have settled on, have over 10,000 miles on, and might be a good system for you.

Continue your learning process, grasshopper.

 

[Rassy]

Pretty much agree with the details Bob listed. In my humble opinion the requirement for both hill climbing and long distances on the flat is where a mid drive, such as a BBS02, really shines.

Some big differences between us, since I am 80 years old, weigh 200 lbs, and currently ride a recumbent delta trike limited by adjustable settings to 20 MPH and 15 amps.

When in a hurry I have two ways to cruise on the level at 20 MPH. First, in 7th or 8th gear where I can keep up with the pedals and PAS set to just maintain 20 MPH. There are variances to which gear is used and which PAS level to use depending on wind speed and slight changes in grade. Second, in 3rd gear with no pedaling and just using the throttle to maintain 20 MPH.

When climbing steep hills with 15 to 20 percent grade I choose 1st gear, PAS is sort of immaterial, moderate pedaling and enough throttle to maintain about 10 MPH.

When just riding for recreation on multi use paths I normally just use PAS level 1 which is limited to 3 amps, about 150 watts and whatever gear allows for the speed and pedal power I wish to apply. Many rides average about 10 MPH and I can go over 40 miles using a 48v 10ah battery, which is about 500 watt hours.

I listed the above personal riding details to illustrate the versatility of a crank drive system that allows you to keep the motor running cool in a variety of situations. I also don't see any significant wear on drive components because I've programmed the Bafang to apply power smoothly, i.e. no chain jerking when shifting, etc.

Whatever route you decide to take good luck with your project.

 

[goatman]

do you have transit buses with bike racks?

 

[saad274]

I'm gonna rip my hair out

 

[goatman]

cant really suggest a cure for the ripping out of hair but maybe shave your head til you've sorted this bike thing out.
have you looked at https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/direct-drive/igh-305.html

 

[saad274]

hey @goatman no we're not allowed to bring bikes onto busses, can use the tram though I didn't think of that!

right, I think I'm going to wind down from researching for a little bit, with all the corona stuff going on I'm working from home, well I say working but I've been spending all my time trawling through forums.

I need to compromise at the end of the day, if that means loading the bike into the car (easier with a mid +1) and getting to fun locations to ride, then so be it, or even taking the tram to get closer to my destination, will save me putting a ginormous 21a pack onto the bike

using gear sensors with the bbshd, keeping revs up like in my car before changing should reduce the chain 'shock' and reduce wear

I can't have my cake and eat it, a hub/mid hybrid doesn't exactly exist, I'm back to leaning towards a mid, again mainly since I'll get that agility back, which I feel I'd be losing by having a hub in the rear, the geometry of the bike would be impacted more than if I used a mid, over the hub, I still want the bike to be fun, not a commuter, and if that means I can't make 20-25 mile journeys, then so be it, the longest I've ridden is 27 miles, round trip on my BTWIN triban road bike took me 3 hours (i had to rest), it did get draining and I ached and vowed to never do that again, it got boring after I'd say 15 miles, but then again it was all road riding, with no scenes or views, nowhere to stop and smoke a j haha and the wheels are thin 700c so not exactly comfortable, you feel 'everything' on the road, hoping a full sus mtb would be significantly more comfortable

I think eliminating the longer commutes makes my choice easier, but nothing is definitive for now, the mid by the looks of it keeps the feel of the bike, more like a bike, and less like a motorcycle (which I intend on progressing to, already would of had had my parents not had slapped me with a firm 'NO', lead to me getting a nice 1.6 honda vtec instead

I will be going back to university in September for my final year, which is rougly 3 miles away, either the hub or mid will conquer with ease, that's about it for the commuting, I'd use it to get to work currently, which is at ManUtd stadium, again only 2 miles from where I live.

"the bike which would be great in the park is not the bike to make the round trip. a bike which would make the trip would not be great in the park" - AngryBob

^ this hit me, I need to consider my purpose for the bike, before getting bogged down between mid, hub, mini geared hubs, batteries, and go back to the roots as to why I wanted one in the first place, and this is what I need to spend some time doing, if you haven't already gathered, I can be a very indecisive person! it sucks sometimes.