Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
Hillhater said:
https://climatechangedispatch.com/offshore-wind-much-more-expensive-than-previously-thought/
…The conventional engineering wisdom is that there will be a 10-15% loss of output for a turbine placed less than 2 km downwind of another.
ArcVera is suggesting that new wind farms could experience losses of as much as 25% at a distance of 10 km(!)…..

Already have an algorithim that can make up for that.
… The increase in energy output from a given installation may seem modest — it’s about 1.2 percent overall, and 3 percent for optimal wind speeds.
https://news.mit.edu/2022/wind-farm-optimization-energy-flow-0811
Whilst any increase in output is worth having,…..
……Im struggling to understand how 1.2-3% overall site output increase can “make up” for even the accepted 10 -15% loss from each of the downwind turbines ?
 
Were entering the realm of fluid dynamics and the creation of wind by pressure differential so to assume a wind turbine down line sees less power at all times is false it depends on the scenario of weather.

Its like a holiday park thats had a hurricane pass through not everywhere get equal amounts of wind, for example many caravans in a holiday park but the wind pics random ones to flip on side and the ine next to it fine.

Wind is not just lines of force shown by arrows its alot more complex than that but its a simple way of expressing direction and force, its all about pressure differences and how they interact with its neighbour system depending on high or low compared to standard atomspheric preasure.
 
Ianhill said:
Were entering the realm of fluid dynamics and the creation of wind by pressure differential so to assume a wind turbine down line sees less power at all times is false it depends on the scenario of weather……
True, and its not clear how the 10-25% loss for an individual turbine was established , (presumeably from trials and experience ?),….but the data quoted in the MIT trials is averaged over both the entire Turbine group, (multiple machines in a working farm array), and a period of time ( ? Year ?) …so variable wind direction and speed.
IE,.. it was real data, not only modeled or estimated
 
It not like you Hillhater to take a study at face value surely theres mit insiders twisting the information to suit the outcome thats desired?

Most studys are flawed in some way, normally the humans conducting them with a specific outcome in mind, abit like the pro oil campaign ah.
 
I dont see any point in disputing the mit study data or results, as the concluded improvement (1-3%) was trivial compared to the losses already established (10-15%) let alone the 25% estimated in individual turbines from the ArcVera paper.
My point being that the gains MIT realised could never “make up” for those individual turbine losses. !
 
In my eyes its the only option specially for europeans price hikes are just getting beyond for gas and electric.

The price of oil drops yet ev adoption is suppose to be the strategy.

In realty the used car market in uk is in a bubble due to the expense of buying an electric car and the uncertainty to invest in a new ice cars along with inflation wven though its not a recession but really it is one just city areas like london etc come out of it on their own the rest of the country been in the dogs since 2008 the amount of job losses is unreal but unemployment keeps reach new lows.

Nothing lines up no more the people see it and want answers but get nothing but bla bla bla same old rhetoric while upwards mobility of cash becomes ever more blatant, somethings got to give in the next 12months and it wont be a great reset as they wont without anarchy.
 
ZeroEm said:
So are we moving back to Nuclear as a replacement for Coal?
Pretty much. Environmentalist groups have been coming around for some time, but certain anti-nuclear groups like Greenpeace suddenly because under-funded and very quiet when Russian sanctions took hold. It also helps that tons of EU nations have nuclear plants that were mid-shudder for maintenance or takedown that can be easily restarted; France is restarting all their nuclear plants for the winter and will be supplying Germany, since that dumbass Scholz is dragging his heels on his 3 remaining plants and climate-change based water shortages are lowering hydro power.

It also helps that most gen 4 and gen 5 reactors don't use water but molten lead or sodium instead; thus saving more of that precious resource.
 
……..and climate-change based water shortages are lowering hydro power.
……
No ! ..that is a WEATHER based issue, not climate .!…same issue as with wind power,..weather dependant !
..It WILL rain again in the next year or two, and the wind will blow , on and off,..sometimes, ..maybe , :roll:
Time for Europe to get real and fire up the Nuke generators again, stoke the coal ones too ! Fight Putin on his own terms !
 
Ianhill said:
….In realty the used car market in uk is in a bubble due to the expense of buying an electric car and the uncertainty to invest in a new ice cars along with inflation ………
I thought the car market inflation was due to the shortage of new cars,.. (worldwide chip and elec component shortage), boosting up used car values. It is an international problem.
If buyers were reluctant to purchase ICEs or EVs, that should force price reductions, not increases ?
 
Hillhater said:
……..and climate-change based water shortages are lowering hydro power.
……
No ! ..that is a WEATHER based issue, not climate .!…same issue as with wind power,..weather dependant !
..It WILL rain again in the next year or two, and the wind will blow , on and off,..sometimes, ..maybe , :roll:
Time for Europe to get real and fire up the Nuke generators again, stoke the coal ones too ! Fight Putin on his own terms !

You shouldn't drink, and post.
 
You shouldn't drink, and post.…
.i dont !…. I THINK and post :wink:
Do you believe Putin is cutting back on Nuke or coal generation ? …
.. why are the west strangling themselves with Green energy policies that are influencing the decisions on sanctions, and hurting their own economies and citizens, whilst Putin is laughing at them ?
Get real and take the energy card out of Putins hands….then use it against him. !
The Germans laughed in 2016 when Trump warned them about relying on Russian gas supplies….
……they are not laughing so much now !
 
by Hillhater » Sep 04 2022 6:59pm

You shouldn't drink, and post.…
.i dont !…. I THINK and post :wink:
Do you believe Putin is cutting back on Nuke or coal generation ? …
.. why are the west strangling themselves with Green energy policies that are influencing the decisions on sanctions, and hurting their own economies and citizens, whilst Putin is laughing at them ?
Get real and take the energy card out of Putins hands….then use it against him. !
The Germans laughed in 2016 when Trump warned them about relying on Russian gas supplies….
……they are not laughing so much now !

Why? Will take a stab at why the USA is pushing for Green energy policies. The main reason is the Right Wing do not deny climate change anymore, they just avoid talking about it.

You live on the southern hemisphere and guessing it's not as bad as the northern hemisphere of planet earth. This year the spring rains did not come nor did most even have a rain for 2-3 months or longer. Started having a few rain showers here for the last three weeks, that just brings us just over 5" of rain this year. The average is 29". Not all are this lucky, the eastern United States to much rain and flooding. We are having 1000 year events weekly. The repercussions of this will be felt next year with a massive food shortage. Crops do not grow well in flooded fields or with out water.

One this that gets the Federal governments attention is spending money, like disaster relief monthly. Paying farmers not to plant crops. To much competition for water. So yes they are starting to get that we need to do something. Don't worry they are not doing very much.

We need more energy so, Nuclear is becoming more acceptable, even with me.

The UK has seen this one crazy weather event and now hearing that China has and is going thru the same, drought and flooding.

Texas, Our heat Index in the coming years is supposed to climb to 126 deg F in the summer. Never seen it much over 110. So if you want to call this a Weather event so be it.
 
Hillhater said:
Ianhill said:
….In realty the used car market in uk is in a bubble due to the expense of buying an electric car and the uncertainty to invest in a new ice cars along with inflation ………
I thought the car market inflation was due to the shortage of new cars,.. (worldwide chip and elec component shortage), boosting up used car values. It is an international problem.
If buyers were reluctant to purchase ICEs or EVs, that should force price reductions, not increases ?

If you can explain to me why my 10 yearold car is now worth more or less the same as it was 3 years ago then im all ears.

I understand classics been used as investment opportunity pushing the price of mk2 escorts and alike into the 30g range but why is my shitty ford focus worthy 3g today and 3g 3 years ago could it be its diesel engine is in high demand but low supply ?
 
Hillhater doesn't understand a damned thing, and frankly it's why whenever I respond to him it's just mockery. He can't tell any of us why Pakistan is so flooded now they have new lakes to the sea, because to do so would be to admit to climate change- but goddamnit, he's not gonna ever accept he doesn't know! Because of that I stopped listening to him unless it was to dunk on him for kicks.

Ianhill said:
If you can explain to me why my 10 yearold car is now worth more or less the same as it was 3 years ago then im all ears.
I can only give an American viewpoint, not a UK view, so grain of salt and yadda yadda.

People change cars all the time because they never actually try to find something they enjoy. They are told that cars are merely appliances meant to be used, and because of that always discuss how much capacity it has or number of kids it can carry- not if it's fun, or engaging in any way. So these people, who if they knew would buy things they want, consume these cars and lease different ones when they get bored which is every few years. They lease them because making maintenance the dealership's problem is frankly, one less thing to worry over in a packed stressful life- this causes something of a trickle-down, where people lease vehicles that are new they like until it's cheap enough for the poors to buy (i.e. me).

But suddenly capitalism gets kneecapped by something that CAN ACTUALLY stop it cold; COVID hits and now nobody can buy or lease new, because there aren't any. Manufacturers can't keep up supply in any consistency but the buyers can't always buy, because now work is questionable as well. Leases get extended instead of going back onto the market, which drives up costs for the remainder since you now have artificial scarcity- and this continues to trickle down until a vehicle is cheap enough it's typically sold to someone. That poor schmuck needs a good ~$5,000 car but finds everything is either a lease, or now is price inflated because the buying public is starved for goods, and the waves continue outwards as more shortages in parts and supplies hit.

That's likely a GROSS oversimplification, but that's how I've understood it.
 
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
Hillhater doesn't understand a damned thing, and frankly it's why whenever I respond to him it's just mockery. He can't tell any of us why Pakistan is so flooded now they have new lakes to the sea, b
? I dont recall you asking ..?
But seeing as you seem to be so ill informed,…
…Pakistan ( the parts you see on the MSM) is flooded (again) because it is one huge river delta and the entire regeon is subject to tropical Monsoon rains.
Its not the first flood, and its not the worst flood in Pakistan, ..its just the most recent !
Those areas have regularly flooded yet people continue to live there . It is just that modern Media competition encourage more reporting of these disaster events.
There are common seasonal WEATHER related events,
..for anyone to claim they are the result of recent climate change, sea level rise, etc etc,..is just grandstanding !
 
Nuclear is too slow and too expensive to fix climate change

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nuclear-energy-too-slow-too-expensive-to-save-climate-report-idUSKBN1W909J

From that article..."The cost of generating solar power ranges from $36 to $44 per megawatt hour (MWh), the WNISR said, while onshore wind power comes in at $29–$56 per MWh. Nuclear energy costs between $112 and $189."

Note, that was in 2019, solar cost has continued to drop.

Those comparative numbers are all inclusive...land cost, financing, construction, decommissioning, etc.

Land costs for solar have been dropping through creative uses ...solar on parking lots/shelters, reservoirs, canals, and growing crops under solar arrays.
 
classicalgas said:
Those comparative numbers are all inclusive...land cost, financing, construction, decommissioning, etc……
BUT…those numbers do not include the …storage, back up generation, FCAS, remote connection services, etc etc… …
….that are needed to make Wind and Solar generation a CONTINUOUS AND RELIABLE energy supply.
 
classicalgas said:
Nuclear is too slow and too expensive to fix climate change

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nuclear-energy-too-slow-too-expensive-to-save-climate-report-idUSKBN1W909J

Timeframe for producing one is totally an issue! But it's why many of the startups- including Gate's- are focused more on small-modular plants using sodium as a coolant. The attached paper has some diagrams about this, there are some designs that can fit into shipping containers for basic trucking and train transport.
The other fact of life is, at scales we need to replace coal and oil burning plants you really don't have anything else but a nuke.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032119307270?via%3Dihub
 
Yeah... Lots of little poorly secured nuke sites that make great dirty bomb targets for fanatics.
I'm sure that will never end badly.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-nuclear-plant-building-stores-162405592.html

"The International Atomic Energy Agency said Tuesday it found the nuclear power plant in Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine, to have suffered damage to the building that houses “fresh nuclear fuel and the solid radioactive waste storage facility.”

The plant is the largest nuclear facility in Europe, and experts have warned about the impending threat it poses, given the repeated damage it has endured during the Russia-Ukraine war."


And none of it is really a solution. It's all just kicking the can down the road with varying degrees of horrendous consequences.
People radically cutting back on what they need to consume to feel self important and satiate their fear someone else will use it all first before they can is really to only path forward.
And getting the population back to a sustainable carrying level, despite people like Musk fear mongering that there won't be enough future consumers to sell crap to. Like clean air and water, and non lethal temperatures that we used to take for granted.
 
The problem with Natural gas is it seems limited. Start using a lot of it and the companies quickly raise up the price. This has changed my plans. The other issue is that its wet. That issues showed up when Texas had it's hard winter and pipe lines froze.

Heating with Gas is cheap compared to restive heating and better than heat pumps. Still have a old natural gas heater, when the power went out it kept the house warm with low bills.

If you do not live in Texas then you may need to have a propane back up.
 
From what i hear Biden been using/abusing americas oil reserves to keep the price of oil down so he looks good for mid term voting.

Problem with that is its kicking the can down the road until it becomes a 6 pack, its been the trend for many goverments world wide to the point its all stacked like jenga one wrong move bring the global economy down and not many countries are in a strong position to weather the storm with little effect.

We be moving to Saudi the line neom next lol.
 
Americans are good with abusing the oil reserves that we may never use. Just evening up the score https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...21b388-3e56-11ec-bd6f-da376f47304e_story.html
Oil Piggy Bank.png
y Ianhill » Sep 07 2022 8:13am

From what i hear Biden been using/abusing americas oil reserves to keep the price of oil down so he looks good for mid term voting.

Problem with that is its kicking the can down the road until it becomes a 6 pack, its been the trend for many goverments world wide to the point its all stacked like jenga one wrong move bring the global economy down and not many countries are in a strong position to weather the storm with little effect.

We be moving to Saudi the line neom next lol.
 
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