Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[TheBeastie]

Once we've burned up all the hydrogen, how do we get water back?

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the whole universe.
And it's never destroyed, it just binds to other elements like 2 Oxygen elements to create water...

When you "burn" hydrogen its actually a reversing chemical process of combining it with other elements, when hydrogen is "burned" it gives off heat/fire as it recombines with oxygen or other free floating elements.
Because burning stuff gives an optical illusion of destroying something or making it smaller, it's really the opposite, as the "burning" material is dispersed widely out into a larger volume into the atmosphere in the form of a gas of some sort.. (co2 / water vapour etc)

With fuel-cells the electricity is created because of the electrons pull attached to Hydrogen wanting to join Oxygen to become water/H2O..

You can see here this ballon of hydrogen is already pooling water at the bottom due to the oxygen that was already in the ballon...
https://youtu.be/WtPrIH0T3b0?t=176

When the flame hits the hydrogen in the ballon it forces a fast reaction of the Hydrogen recombing to the oxygen in the atmosphere causing a splash of water and the release of a lot of heat in the chemical recombination process.
Instead of electricity being created all the potential energy is lost in the form of a heat explosion in the process recombining the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
https://youtu.be/WtPrIH0T3b0?t=242

Air is mostly just 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen with 0.04% being co2 and other stuff. So free floating hydrogen will attach to oxygen to become water vapour any chance it can get.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth#Composition

Here is a rather new and nerdy video below of how they make PEM fuel cells.
PEMFCs are built out of membrane electrode assemblies (MEA) which include the electrodes, electrolyte, catalyst, and gas diffusion layers.
An ink of catalyst, carbon, and electrode are sprayed or painted onto the solid electrolyte and carbon paper is hot pressed on either side to protect the inside of the cell and also act as electrodes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton-exchange_membrane_fuel_cell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrAAVOgBmcE
[youtube]yrAAVOgBmcE[/youtube]

 

[Dauntless]

Hellhater will have the best comment on this one, the rest of you wait for the master to weight in.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/climate/methane-natural-gas-flaring.html

 

[Hillhater]

Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..

........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......

So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:

 

[Dauntless]

I don't understand, you don't think there is much? It's definitely worse than burning it. Remember they're trying to use the message against you.

 

[Dauntless]

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/09/world/climate-covid-money-intl

The page has some strange formatting, make sure you made it to the bottom.

 

[Balmorhea]

Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..

........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......

So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:

Most hydrogen used these days is steam reformed from natural gas.

 

[Hillhater]

Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..

........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......

So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:

Most hydrogen used these days is steam reformed from natural gas.

???... so what are you saying here..?
What is the connection between an article on NG leakage/flareing , and hydrogen production. ?

 

[Balmorhea]

Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..

........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......

So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:

Most hydrogen used these days is steam reformed from natural gas.

???... so what are you saying here..?
What is the connection between an article on NG leakage/flareing , and hydrogen production. ?

I didn't read the article. But as things are now, vehicles fueled by hydrogen are in fact fueled by natural gas more often than not. So they carry all the compromises of that industry.

Sort of like how in a lot of places, an electric vehicle is a coal-burning vehicle.

 

[Dauntless]

Hydrogen has been on ongoing topic just now, so as he says we get hydrogen from gas that's being wasted.

 

[Hillhater]

Hydrogen has been on ongoing topic just now, so as he says we get hydrogen from gas that's being wasted.

Nice theory.....but not on a industrial scale,..... huge volumes of commercial gas are required
“Cheap , Clean “ hydrogen is produced by burning gas to make steam, which is then used to reform more gas into hydrogen that costs $10+ per kg to produce. ...
.....with 10 kg of CO2 as a byproduct. !!
Yea..cheap ...clean... NOT !

 

[ZeroEm]

Let's just split water!

 

[Hillhater]

Let's just split water!

With what ??.....an axe ?
..but i guess you are thinking Electrolysis ...?
You may want to consider the practical costs of that approach too ! :wink:

 

[Dauntless]

[youtube]y564PsKvNZs[/youtube]

 

[Dauntless]

[youtube]lVNV1qXnGb0[/youtube]

 

[Hillhater]

It would appear that some “early adopters” of RE generation are realising that there is more to it than a simple switch away from fossil fuels, and the true costs are hidden along with the consequences.
[youtube]kGjilBZWIYM[/youtube]

 

[kdog]

China just brought onlinethe world's biggest PV power station, source- PV magazine:

World’s largest solar plant goes online in China
Huanghe Hydropower Development has connected a 2.2 GW solar plant to the grid in the desert in China’s remote Qinghai province. The project is backed by 202.8 MW/MWh of storage.

2.2gig....thats huge! Even the skeptics got to admit thats one badass array

 

[Dauntless]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/western-wilfires-record-temperatures-california-60-minutes-2020-10-04/

 

[JackFlorey]

2.2gig....thats huge!

Yep. And as prices drop, they are only going to get bigger.

 

[jonescg]

Australia's main electricity grid - the NEM, enjoyed five days in a row of >50% renewable electricity for a few hours each time.
https://opennem.org.au/energy/nem
The grid was just fine.

 

[Hillhater]

2.2gig....thats huge!

By solar installations ,..yes...
Bur remember,..in a good year, that plant will only produce as much power (4 - 5 TWh), as a small (500MW) gas or coal fueled plant.. ( if the weather is co-operating !)
..And in the 11 months it took to build that plant, China opened 20+ new Coal plants, each one with more capacity than the solar plant.
And that 208 MWh of “storage”...is only there because it is essential for the safe operation of the unpredictable solar output. It will never serve any practical purpose as a supply resource.

 

[Hillhater]

Australia's main electricity grid - the NEM, enjoyed five days in a row of >50% renewable electricity for a few hours each time.
https://opennem.org.au/energy/nem

You might like to think that, but it is not true, as the largest RE contribution to that data is Rooftop Solar, which is neither a part of the grid supply, and is mostly unmeasured.
The RT data shown is only an estimate of what is thought to have been generated.

The grid was just fine.

.......you may like to see how often S Australia, ( the RE “Poster boy” of Australia), has been “ curtailing” (IE, limiting) their wind generators to prevent problems with the grid supply !

 

[ZeroEm]

Sounds like it would be cheaper to pull a trailer with a propane fueled generator to power your EV than a FuelCell.

 

[jonescg]

Then they really ought to build the NSW SA interconnector so the state which needs it (NSW) can take it from the state that has too much (SA).

 

[ZeroEm]

Think about what they say about transferring power around from who has more. Just not with in a country/area, makes my head spin.

 

[Dauntless]

Sounds like it would be cheaper to pull a trailer with a propane fueled generator to power your EV than a FuelCell.

I don't know if they had a propane version of the Chevy Volt, but it was supposed to be transitional. As you say, the final version might not work out.