Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[JackFlorey]

For best reliability and efficiency,...eliminate those components that are NOT ESSENTIAL. !

So eliminate fossil fuel power plants. I agree!

Odd ?.. since there have been hotter periods in the past without major issues ? What has changed ?

The water is warmer. The heat waves are lasting longer. More utilities are privatized. There's more demand.

Did anyone force them to use grid power ?, ..or did they choose to opt for its reliability, 24/7 availability, lower cost, no maintenance, etc etc ?

Nope, they just did all the work, and provided all the hardware, for free.

A good model. We should do the same with solar.

 

[nicobie]

I think propping up the power grid with old batteries that were used for transportation is just about a perfect application.

 

[Hillhater]

So eliminate fossil fuel power plants. I agree!

Sure,...shut down all the US coal & Gas plants,.....lets see how that works out ?

...they just did all the work, and provided all the hardware, for free.
A good model. We should do the same with solar.

I thought the utilities did just that ?
Thats why your power prices are higher now .

 

[Hillhater]

I think propping up the power grid with old batteries that were used for transportation is just about a perfect application.

About as perfect at sticking a used Band Aid on a self inflicked bullet wound in the foot !
But at least you do think using batteries would be “propping up” a weakened grid

 

[nicobie]

Hey, what do you have against bandaids? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[markz]

Batteries and power wont do much of anything with the drought and lowering water levels in SW USA.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/arizona-nevada-drought-water-shortage_n_607b8571e4b0deb3d5b4fbd9
https://abcnews.go.com/US/lake-mead-hits-lowest-water-levels-history-amid/story?id=78197478
How can they get water? Desalination of the ocean water and pipe it to where its needed, requiring how many gigawatts of power?
For lush golf courses, lush green desert home lawns, and nice juicy burg 1,847 gal./lb of beef - sheep at 1,248 gal./lb. - pork at 718 gal./lb.

I think propping up the power grid with old batteries that were used for transportation is just about a perfect application.

About as perfect at sticking a used Band Aid on a self inflicked bullet wound in the foot !
But at least you do think using batteries would be “propping up” a weakened grid

 

[JackFlorey]

How can they get water? Desalination of the ocean water and pipe it to where its needed, requiring how many gigawatts of power?

Many gigawatts. A perfect application for solar. Pump the water into a water tower while there is sun, then use the pressure 24/7 to create fresh water.

 

[Voltron]

Coincidentally just saw a thing on solar dome desalination...

 

[Hillhater]

Many gigawatts. A perfect application for solar. Pump the water into a water tower while there is sun, then use the pressure 24/7 to create fresh water.

What “pressure” process is that to produce fresh water ??..membrane desalination (RO) ?
Australian has Desal plants ( one for each major city) ..typically it needs 900 MWh to produce 250,000 tons per day..
...and thats after the $2.0 bn build cost of each desal facility !
BUT..you have to have a good supply of feed water (ocean ?) ,..and a “sink” for the concentrated brine discharge...
.. as well as electricity. (40+ MW continuous. ? )
THEN you have to get the desal water to where it is needed..( generally a long way from the ocean). A LOT of pumping needed.
It is probably cheaper/ easier to pipe/pump fresh water across from the east , Mississippi, etc ?
You may be able , at a high cost..to supply enough water for drinking/ cooking etc, ..but human efforts like this even on the biggest practical scale, can never replace what nature delivers.

 

[JackFlorey]

What “pressure” process is that to produce fresh water ??..membrane desalination (RO) ?

Yep.

BUT..you have to have a good supply of feed water (ocean ?) ,..and a “sink” for the concentrated brine discharge...

We got that. So does LA, and SF, and coastal TX.

as well as electricity. (40+ MW continuous. ? )

Nope. See above. Water storage in water tower eliminates the need for continuous power.

THEN you have to get the desal water to where it is needed..

Nope. Coastal cities use that water. The Colorado river water they DON'T need is then used for agriculture as it is now. Pipes/canals etc are already in place.

As time goes on, the pumping systems that once used to pump fresh water to cities is used to pump seawater to inland areas, where they do their own desalination.

It is probably cheaper/ easier to pipe/pump fresh water across from the east , Mississippi, etc ?

Until we drain the Mississippi.

You may be able , at a high cost..to supply enough water for drinking/ cooking etc, ..but human efforts like this even on the biggest practical scale, can never replace what nature delivers.

Agreed. Too bad we screwed with nature so badly that it's not delivering what it used to. Foolish of us, eh?

 

[Ianhill]

250000 tons of water storage only comes in the form of a mountain above sea level.

I watched a video on a welsh damn that was built on the river taff in the 60's the effort involved was unreal millions of gallons of fossils burned and thats just to make one face of the damn and landscape the insides with clay.

2750 tons in an Olympic swimming pool for example, so we need 100 of them there abouts not sure on its total demands but id estimste around half a million people depend on it.

The initial effort of making a dome like that in the future will fall on micro nuclear to power a plant equipment with hydrogen its the only way once easy oil drys up.

To get the energy to make the dome without it would mean at least 10 year time line and crazy amount of panels needed to power the electric plant equipment that we don't even have but hydrogen will swap into what we have now and allow massive infrastructure to he built if micro nuclear is making hydrogen at source.

I dont think what we will build is the problem but how do we make complex motorway spaghetti junctions etc without burning millions of gallons of fossils not befuse i want to be green but because its not sustainable enough to continue.

Big business see this too they already developing hydrogen plant its the only way and they are praying on the power generation delivering the future gen nuclear reactors soon as possible.

 

[JackFlorey]

250000 tons of water storage only comes in the form of a mountain above sea level.

That's certainly doable as well. At our desalinator, there's a 400 foot mountain less than 4 miles from the plant. Most locations on the coast have such topography.

The RO membranes operate at around 1000psi, but the use of pressure economizers results in an input pressure requirement of about 120 psi. That is achievable with a ~300 foot elevation water storage location.

 

[Hillhater]

.
The RO membranes operate at around 1000psi, but the use of pressure economizers results in an input pressure requirement of about 120 psi. That is achievable with a ~300 foot elevation water storage location.

Jack, please explain how that 120psi, is increased to 1000psi ,..with no external energy input ?....
( and i do know what a pressure economiser is !)

 

[JackFlorey]

Jack, please explain how that 120psi, is increased to 1000psi ,..with no external energy input ?....
( and i do know what a pressure economiser is !)

By dropping the outgoing pressure a similar amount.

As it was explained to me by a guy there, the membrane works best at a high absolute pressure and a differential pressure of about 100psi. So the high side pressure is ~1000 psi, the low side pressure is ~900psi. As the pressure is dropped on the output side the pressure is raised on the input side. Thus flow can be maintained with 120psi of input pressure.

A simple way to consider it is to consider two positive displacement pumps (one input side, one output side) with their shafts connected; the only mechanical input needed is the input needed to maintain the DIFFERENCE in pressures, not the absolute pressure. No doubt it is done more elegantly than that, but that's the basic concept.

 

[Hillhater]

Oh Jack !..
Its not that simple.
Pressure economisers are good, .....but not that good !
At best they are about 60% efficient. So they might recover 500-550 psi of that 900 discharge.
But, there is 1000psi required so at least another 450 psi ( 30 bar) at least is required.
That is 1000+ feet of water pressure .
EDIT
Oops ! ..i got that wrong.
The Pressure Economisers currently in use, as shown below, recover pressure at reduced volume, so the make up volume from incoming supply has to be at the operating pressure ..1000psi...(67 bar)....or 2200ft water head !
You are going to need a taller tower !....capable of holding 150,000+ tons ! :?

EDIT..
This is a good explanation with relevant data for seawater desal using a pressure exchange economiser.

Ref .. https://www.lenntech.com/processes/desalination/reverse-osmosis/general/reverse-osmosis-desalination-process.htm

 

[ZeroEm]

I have been watching this coming as with most, guess seeing is not enough. To the east of me it's flooding and to the West dry and burning. San Antonio started a pipe line project years ago to pump water from the north east (east of Austin TX) and now understand why. It is much wetter and we are on the dry line. The farmers pay for an acer of water for what we pay for a 100 gals. They will need to stop evaporating our drinking water in the dry west. I'm sure the real pain is yet to come.

 

[Hillhater]

Studies of Tree rings have identified a pattern of “Megadroughts” on the US West coast.
https://www.kqed.org/science/1962273/megadrought-conditions-not-seen-for-400-years-have-returned-to-the-west-scientists-say

.....The last time the West experienced sustained arid conditions over decades was a 28-year dry spell that ended in the year 1603, researchers say.
“We now have a full, uninterrupted record of soil moisture across western North America that extends from 800 A.D. all the way up to the near present,” said Park Williams, a bioclimatologist at Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University, who led the study. “That allows us to compare for the first time this drought event to the big megadroughts. And the development of this prolonged drought that began in 2000 looks indistinguishable from those big megadroughts.”

The study looked at California, eight other states and Northern Mexico.
A Worst-Case Scenarios for Water Managers
Scientists have long known that the West suffered in the distant past under anomalous dry periods that lasted for decades.
The region returning to what researchers call a megadrought or a “paleo-drought” is considered to be a worst-case scenario for water managers.
Researchers say the region experienced megadroughts in the 9th, 12th, 13th and16th centuries, disrupting Native American cultures. For example, dry conditions are believed to have driven the Anasazi from their pueblo settlements in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and Utah.

Suggesting there is a 400yr cycle of these natural events
There were not many people around in 1600, let alone industry, cars , aircraft, or FFueled power plants !
...And CO2 was way down below 300ppm !

 

[Ianhill]

700 years ago just before the time you talk of britian became warm enough to grow wine crops within 200 years it was cold again then we started burning combustibles.

Since then theres been a steady increase in the temp records showing a small rise in temp globally along with co2.

Covid came about locked us all down and the weather changed in uk, pollution generally dropped all over those fine particles didnt cloud seed and the area i live in thats 2/3rds a damp day became closer to 50/50 its there in the weather record for my area to see.

Don't mean the rain didn't fall just went somewhere else the steel industry went into moth ball situation that alone changed my weather the rain fell further up the mountain due to temp and pressure rather than ground level seeding on foggy days holding pollution to the ground too.

To me its obvious whats needed for a clean bright future but then i lool at Ethiopia's rising dump of rubbish after 2017 desth toll and realize there's only one order this universe listens too disorder no matter what effort humans apply thats were we are heading.

 

[markz]

https://globalnews.ca/news/7980752/mccain-foods-regenerative-agriculture/

McCain Foods moves toward regenerative agriculture practices

She added McCain has taken a stand in regenerative agriculture, a ecosystem-based approach to improving soil, yields and reducing synthetic inputs.

The company is working towards only sourcing its potatoes from farmers who use these types of methods.

The company works with 30 different potato growers in Alberta

 

[Hillhater]

https://globalnews.ca/news/7980752/mccain-foods-regenerative-agriculture/

McCain Foods moves toward regenerative agriculture practices

Sounds a lot like Marketing Speil / virtue signaling. ?
Most of the farmers down here are on their bare arse’s , after being screwed on prices by the big food processors and supermarket chains.
Farmers will adopt new practices that either reduce overall production costs, or improve quality enough for a better sell price
You would not believe how much good produce is “ploughed back in” because the big contract buyers dont think it is good enough and wont buy it !
Oversize Tomatoes
Wrong shape sweet potatoes
Spotty potatoes
Odd shaped strawberries
Apples that are too red
Etc etc
Maybe MCain Foods think ploughing in “ugly” tomatoes is “regenerative agriculture “ ?

PS:... i tried hard,...but could not see the linkage between regenerative Ag and Wind,Solar, Nuke, Coal, or Gas ?.
Were you just lost for somewhere to post this critical information ?

 

[markz]

The original youtube video I saw said they are using sustainable agricultural practices which to me is going towards bio diesels and solar at their processing plants or buying green energy from the power company. Mcain fries are more expensive as it is at the grocery store, so adding all that expense just rips off the farmers bottom line as more and more farmers move away from farming then the mega farms buy their land and can afford having a John Deere mechanic swing by and load up their laptop for some proprietary fixing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_digestion

Anaerobic digestion is a sequence of processes by which microorganisms break down biodegradable material in the absence of oxygen.[1] The process is used for industrial or domestic purposes to manage waste or to produce fuels. Much of the fermentation used industrially to produce food and drink products, as well as home fermentation, uses anaerobic digestion.

Anaerobic digestion occurs naturally in some soils and in lake and oceanic basin sediments, where it is usually referred to as "anaerobic activity".[2][3] This is the source of marsh gas methane as discovered by Alessandro Volta in 1776.[4][5]

The digestion process begins with bacterial hydrolysis of the input materials. Insoluble organic polymers, such as carbohydrates, are broken down to soluble derivatives that become available for other bacteria. Acidogenic bacteria then convert the sugars and amino acids into carbon dioxide, hydrogen, ammonia, and organic acids. In Acetogenesis, bacteria convert these resulting organic acids into acetic acid, along with additional ammonia, hydrogen, and carbon dioxide amongst other compounds. Finally, methanogens convert these products to methane and carbon dioxide.[6] The methanogenic archaea populations play an indispensable role in anaerobic wastewater treatments.[7]

Anaerobic digestion is used as part of the process to treat biodegradable waste and sewage sludge. As part of an integrated waste management system, anaerobic digestion reduces the emission of landfill gas into the atmosphere. Anaerobic digesters can also be fed with purpose-grown energy crops, such as maize.[8]

Anaerobic digestion is widely used as a source of renewable energy. The process produces a biogas, consisting of methane, carbon dioxide, and traces of other 'contaminant' gases.[1] This biogas can be used directly as fuel, in combined heat and power gas engines[9] or upgraded to natural gas-quality biomethane. The nutrient-rich digestate also produced can be used as fertilizer.

With the re-use of waste as a resource and new technological approaches that have lowered capital costs, anaerobic digestion has in recent years received increased attention among governments in a number of countries, among these the United Kingdom (2011),[10] Germany,[citation needed] Denmark (2011),[11] and the United States.[12]

 

[jonescg]

Sounds a lot like Marketing Speil / virtue signaling. ?

We don't agree on much here, but I suspect there's some furious agreement on the very flimsy pretence of regenerative agriculture. ​It is just the latest buzz word for "Not raping the land as hard". A worthy and decent goal to aspire to. It can be done to good effect if you accept lower yields...

My PhD was actually in plant science so I've been following these trends for almost two decades. Agriculture has done an absolutely outstanding job of feeding billions, and Norm Borlaug's green revolution is at the centre of it, primarily through selecting varieties of crops which can produce more from fewer inputs.

But of course, it's my duty to inform readers that the green revolution was, and continues to be 90% fuelled by energy dense, liquid fossil fuels, and 10% liquified methane gas (for the production of cheap H2, which was added to N2 to make NH3 for fertiliser). Modern agriculture feeds 7.7 billion people, even if some of them are eating enough food for a family of five. We can easily produce enough food for 10 billion, which is where the world population is set to level off. But only if we have access to energy dense fuels to power the industry. For this, we may just need to continue using diesel for a while yet, and offsetting the sectors emissions through other CO2 absorbing means like reafforestation.

PS:... i tried hard,...but could not see the linkage between regenerative Ag and Wind,Solar, Nuke, Coal, or Gas ?.
​Were you just lost for somewhere to post this critical information ?

On-farm NH3 production is an interesting development. Use on-site solar and wind to electrolyse water yielding H2. Then set up the Harber process. Liquified NH3 can be turned into nitrates using the Ostwald process (oxidation over a metal catalyst). This might be one way of meaningfully reducing CO2 emissions in agriculture, provided your Breaking Bad on-farm chemical plant doesn't blow up!

 

[Hillhater]

On-farm NH3 production is an interesting development. Use on-site solar and wind to electrolyse water yielding H2. Then set up the Harber process. Liquified NH3 can be turned into nitrates using the Ostwald process (oxidation over a metal catalyst).......

Why on farm ?........each individual farm producing their own NH3 ?...who is going to fund those facilities ?
Im sure you are aware of the economics of green H2/ NH3 production,... even the most enthusiastic supporters are not optimistic that it can be justified...and many do not believe it is actually feasible beyond technical demonstration/ pilot facilities.
Either way, it would be more economical on an industrial scale, as is the current NH3 process.
Farmers generally must be some of the most environmentally aware businessmen on the planet with their historic record of recycling of waste and use of natural processes to improve their output

 

[Hillhater]

Australia is going FOT with utility scale batteries to help stabilise the grid with a steady increase on Wind and Solar generation.
One of the latest, a 450 MWh Tesla installation is just being commissioned in Victoria.
Unfortunately, during testing, one of the (100+) “Megapacks” caught fire and rapidly spread to another nearby unit.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/fire-breaks-out-during-testing-of-victorian-big-battery-near-geelong-20210730-p58eh4.html
The Fire responders seem to accept there is no way to stop the fire, and plan to let it burn out !

 

[nicobie]

I wonder what went wrong?