Woodgas, more green than ev?

[Arlo1]

Arlo1 : Hold on.
You missed the most crucial part. What ever you use to make the wood gas has emissions as well. I mean are you using an ICE to try to harness torque from the fuel being burnt?

Well, I admitted it's extremely impractical to use for transport unless it is used like natgas or propane, so you're not hauling the gasifier with you.
I at least plan to use it for stationary power (cooking and supplementing solar& wind)
But bottling it would be awesome.

Then it would make sense because you're using existing ice vehicles instead of making brand new ones. And when we need more, how is manufacturing of new ice vehicles worse than manufacturing ev's? (expecially taking the large amounts of copper and battery metals)

I sincerely question the impact of having even 90% converted to ev. I think there would be problems with the sheer amount of scarce things like neodymium, lithium, cobalt, even copper. Not only problems of cleaner manufacture, but diminishing resources over time with recycling losses.
.

Wrong again the motor is small and simple in most EV,s using a lot less materials then an ICE the Tesla does not use permanent magnets its a induction motor.
The battery uses a small amount of metal but you only need to mine it once then recycle it as well the battery lasts a very long time.

 

[liveforphysics]

The resources used and energy and pollution to make modern solar cells and modern lithium batteries is very low, with the potential to be roughly carbon neutral.

Burning organic stuff and/or heating stuff until thermal decomposition into gnarly compounds and then burning it is a nasty dirty process that releases a bunch of poison and toxic compounds.

Solar cells are as cheap as $0.70/watt, and it doesn't require endless dump-truck loads of wood to be burned to keep it working year after year.

Going solar and/or wind over burning wood is really a no brainer from all aspects, especially if you're a forest. :lol:

 

[speedmd]

Agree, there is no comparison in the tox trail of the two paths. They started to rate PV panels on toxic substance contents I noticed recently. Interesting change thanks to the fossil think tank talking points /arguments that went no where in slowing down the trend. Way too cold up our way to rely just on wind and solar unfortunately when living in a old place. Yes certainly if you start over fresh with a well thought out build, but in our old cabin, the 1906 wood burner stays. There are many more toxic fuels to pick on. It is better to use dying and decaying trees that would otherwise be chipped and left to compost at road sides or land fills where they are just adding to the waste stream. Wood is Certainly better than frack gas with all it's issues. Researching a PV system now. Hopefully have one built / installed this summer. Just wondering how much over-sized I need to make it for the EV.

 

[LockH]

Ooops. Better error on "too big" for that PV etc system and energy storage (might have guests that would appreciate plugging in).

 

[Flying-low]

No, the soils would die without compost. As we are killing the soil, and have been doing in the USA since cheap fertilizer came along. Soil can grow a crop, dirt cannot. dirt is sterile soil, like a herbicide, like crusher fine rock for example. Seeds sprout, then die in it.

But people think their own compost pile is "green", while it's not unless they capture that methane. In a way, better to landfill it, especially if the landfill is advanced enough to harvest the methane. Here it's so dry, the yard waste carbon in our landfill is literally sequestered forever. It starts to compost, but won't finish. It just mummifies.

Ideal would be the compost factory, green waste would go there, compost in a way that catches the methane, then come out the other end to get put on the farm land. Everything not green waste in the trash stream would be recycleable, metal, plastic, glass, paper, etc.

Back on topic, wood gas will come back if we ever run out of fossil fuels, green or dirty, it will come back if there is nothing, as it did in the 40's during that war.

Happen to be building a wood gas system. Its way greener than most people think if the system is built properly. There is biochar that makes really good fertilizer, that you empty out of the gasifier every three to five hundred miles. you also have to empty the condensation tanks, this fluid can actually be sold for fertilizer.
check this out www.driveonwood.com

 

[Harold in CR]

If I can't get this damn 20HP Honda to run on gasoline anymore, bet your ass I'm building a gasifier, to power my sawmill. As mentioned above, its cleaner than most think, IF constructed correctly. There is NO smoke, just combustible gasses, after filtering out the tars, etc.

I have lots of dead tree branches, not real big, that I can crush up, (wife power), and use that. We are in the process of gathering and drying those limbs, every day we have a few spare minutes. Our trees are mostly self pruning, and soon, I have to start logging our tree farm, sporadically. Too much debris to just allow to accumulate or burn as a brush pile.

 

[speedmd]

Not sure you have seen these.

Yahoo group for wood gas. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WoodGas/info

Older paper on it. http://www.biomasscenter.org/pdfs/Wood-Chip-Heating-Guide.pdf

http://www.borealiswoodpower.com/process.php

Home made one. http://www.borealiswoodpower.com/process.php

http://www.gasificationofbiomass.org/app/webroot/files/file/publications/WoodchipsGasifierCombinedheatandPower.pdf

 

[Flying-low]

If I can't get this damn 20HP Honda to run on gasoline anymore, bet your ass I'm building a gasifier, to power my sawmill. As mentioned above, its cleaner than most think, IF constructed correctly. There is NO smoke, just combustible gasses, after filtering out the tars, etc.

I have lots of dead tree branches, not real big, that I can crush up, (wife power), and use that. We are in the process of gathering and drying those limbs, every day we have a few spare minutes. Our trees are mostly self pruning, and soon, I have to start logging our tree farm, sporadically. Too much debris to just allow to accumulate or burn as a brush pile.

Check out the website above. the system that is being used actually cracks most of the tar so you don't have to filter it. Runs at about 3000 f. It can also be used to get a little power out of plastics. you can run quite a bit of trash through it as long as most of what you are using is wood.
using wood gas is definitely NOT for everyone. there's some places where wood is not as readily available as others and getting it in the city is a little bit harder. But, for those of us that live in the country, near a sawmill, or have enough land to grow their own fuel, it can be a very eco friendly and cheap way to get power.
if you plant the proper trees, in one year, on seven acres of land, you can grow 68,000 pounds it wood. Smaller trucks use 1 pound to go 1.3 miles. Thats over 88,000 miles a year. Even if the wood had to be bought at $50 a cord its less then a penny a mile.

Edit: had some numbers wrong

 

[Harold in CR]

I have studied different designs and found this very interesting you tube video. Guy makes a lot of sense in what he says-does, so, I am going to copy his build the best I can. He has very little tar residue, which is really from burning too wet wood. Pellets are the best design, but, I have too many projects now to worry about building a pellet mill, althouhg I have designed one after much research and learning how to make the pellets so they drop out of the press plate, instead of plugging up.

LINK HERE

We have a 4 acre tree farm where we planted 800 trees, 7-8 years ago. We have probably 20 sawlog trees to cut, as soon as I get the sawmill built. It's almost ready. This is first thinning, to allow other trees to add girth. Most trees are over 60-70 feet tall and average 9" girth overall. Some are 16" + at chest height and others we need to cut, are all over 12" girth at chest height. Trees grow year round, here.

Sawmill will have 20HP Honda V-twin and a flexible hose attached to the engine intake/carb area, from the gasifier.

 

[TheBeastie]

I noticed the preferred wood fuel is wood pellets which would take a lot of energy in the first place to create.
I know some one that sells woodchippers of various types, and I spent a little time wondering what it would take to create one that ran on electricity and be portable and of decent wood chipping power like the diesel ones you see city councils use, i figured it would need the same size battery that they stick in a Tesla vehicle.

Its all nice and easy showing off these woodgasifies when the wood is prechipped and ready to go but I would say just as much energy and co2 is emitted into the atmosphere creating nice ready to go chipped wood for the woodgaser then what is saved from actually using the woodgas technology.

I think these things have some practicality in the countryside in an emergency when there is no electricity available but I kind of think it ends there.
And with that said I can't help but think just building a steam powered version based off direct burning of the wood that doesn't need to be pre-prepared for gassification would be easier in the long run.. With steam power you don't need special filters etc all you need is flame and water, yes its more smokey up front but thats because its not cheating...

 

[Flying-low]

I noticed the preferred wood fuel is wood pellets which would take a lot of energy in the first place to create.
I know some one that sells woodchippers of various types, and I spent a little time wondering what it would take to create one that ran on electricity and be portable and of decent wood chipping power like the diesel ones you see city councils use, i figured it would need the same size battery that they stick in a Tesla vehicle.

Its all nice and easy showing off these woodgasifies when the wood is prechipped and ready to go but I would say just as much energy and co2 is emitted into the atmosphere creating nice ready to go chipped wood for the woodgaser then what is saved from actually using the woodgas technology.

I think these things have some practicality in the countryside in an emergency when there is no electricity available but I kind of think it ends there.
And with that said I can't help but think just building a steam powered version based off direct burning of the wood that doesn't need to be pre-prepared for gassification would be easier in the long run.. With steam power you don't need special filters etc all you need is flame and water, yes its more smokey up front but thats because its not cheating...

Best wood size is anywhere from egg to fist sized. Really you need a chunker. https://youtu.be/bx9tgicoxW4

 

[Flying-low]

I have studied different designs and found this very interesting you tube video. Guy makes a lot of sense in what he says-does, so, I am going to copy his build the best I can. He has very little tar residue, which is really from burning too wet wood. Pellets are the best design, but, I have too many projects now to worry about building a pellet mill, althouhg I have designed one after much research and learning how to make the pellets so they drop out of the press plate, instead of plugging up.

LINK HERE

We have a 4 acre tree farm where we planted 800 trees, 7-8 years ago. We have probably 20 sawlog trees to cut, as soon as I get the sawmill built. It's almost ready. This is first thinning, to allow other trees to add girth. Most trees are over 60-70 feet tall and average 9" girth overall. Some are 16" + at chest height and others we need to cut, are all over 12" girth at chest height. Trees grow year round, here.

Sawmill will have 20HP Honda V-twin and a flexible hose attached to the engine intake/carb area, from the gasifier.

This design is tar free! https://youtu.be/_tA0stq9rjg

 

[Harold in CR]

Very familiar with Wayne Keith. For my use, I don't need as a refined system as he has. I may run the engine 2 hours max at any one time, being as I am only sawing my trees to gain extra income. He has access to hay and such. I have access to sawdust from my Buddys sawmill a half mile away. That's why I feel the design in the video I posted will suit me. An elaborate system is more costly which I can't afford.

 

[speedmd]

What are you building for a saw mill? Wood mizer is a good design for a small operation. http://woodmizer.com/us/ Efficient, relatively fast cutting and easy to move around. Perfect for maximizing board feet production and easy to resharpen blades. A few locals have installed electric motors on indoor installs. I ran one for a few weeks on a clearing / building project. Simplifies moving the logs. Winch / drag them all into a central location, setup, roll them on and saw.

Wood for energy production has a big moisture problem. Some types have more than half their weight in water. It does not dry easily or quickly in log form. Chipping helps greatly in its ability to loose water weight quickly/ easily. It also helps keep pests at bay. Thin layers of chips will sun dry in days rather than months in log form. Regardless how you gas them, you need to get them bone dry before it works efficiently. No way around the issue.

 

[cycleops612]

Wood gas isn't clean.

A solar panel and a battery that lasts life of vehicle is clean.

Absolutely incorrect.

The wood was made via photosynthesis extracting carbon from co2 producing/releasing oxygen.

Burn/bake the wood & its a zero sum game.

So you are saying 100% of ebike charging is done sans fossil fuels?

 

[cycleops612]

An example FYI?.

A mate from thee past had a very big farm.

He set up two cadillac engines -old- built a brick wood oven. piped the resultant gas into the motors. Ran a bit rough but provided power for about 20 people & the farm.

He also made a wind generator.

A 44 gal drum sliced in half vertically & welded halves back to back.

rigged an old drive shaft (horizontal between two fence posts) & an auto gearbox & then a generator. Some serious power there too - may have been two "drums" on drive shaft?.

 

[Harold in CR]

Speedmd
Years back, I owned and operated a Corley #2 production sawmill, 52" circle blade. Ran it several years until the lumber and cross tie magnet was overloaded and then went bust in the lat 70's.

5 years before I moved here, in 2006, my Son and I got hooked into a sunken log recovery deal. Primary partner cut out and dumped the deal/debt on me. After we figured out how to find these logs, (Don't believe all you saw on the Ax Men program) we started getting screwed on the price of logs by the log buyer, so, while my Son was running our manufacturing shop, I set out to build an oversized WoodMizer. We did it in 4 months time, and took a lot of fiddling with it, before we hit on our problem, blade was shit. Even had a free WoodMizer blade, but, it didn't work very well.

Finally got a Munksfogsager Swedish Blade, and we were going gang busters. We found and cut over 150,000 bd/ft of Sinker Heart Pine and Bald Cypress. We were sawing Table slabs 36" wide and could cut 38" dia. logs. 3 Hurricanes all at 1 time and wife passing, ended all that, while we recovered regrouped. Ended that deal and I came down here to paradise. :lol: Been busting my ass ever since.

Anyway, I am building a larger model of the LT15 WoodMizer, with all electric features for log stops up/down, clamp in/out up/down, sawhead up/down, sawhead travel to/fro, etc. When yer short funded you make do, same as the infamous AmberWolf fellow. Already have a solar dry kiln that we will be storing LIMBS in, as they are sap dry, but rain wet, so they will dry quickly. We won't need mountains of wood supply to do what I want. Like I mentioned in my other post, 2-3 hours of handling logs/sawing, is all my 72 year old body can stand. Besides, got to make time to build my leaning reverse tadpole bici-moto. 8) :lol:

Soon as I get things organized, I will post up our nearly self sufficient lifestyle with Hydro electricity, Wind electricity, solar electricity, and hot water,Aquaponics greenhouse, etc,. etc,.

Already WAAYYYY over hijacked this thread.

 

[Punx0r]

Interesting story, Harold

Cycleops, wood is certainly CO2 neutral (assuming no energy used to harvest/transport/process it) but that doesn't necessarily make burning it "clean". You also have to consider other chemical combustion productions and particulate emissions. Domestic wood-burning can really ruin urban air quality, such that doing so is banned in many towns in the UK.

 

[speedmd]

No Hijack there Harold. Directly on topic as far as I can see. Good to hear from a fellow that understands the benifits in true green energy (wood). Eats co2, produces oxygen and has a boat load of other life sustaining benefits when taken / used and replanted in balance. I tell the younger guys that you have not lived until you knock down some huge trees, saw them into useful shapes, dry, sort and then fashion a truly beautiful useful item with the produce. If you can produce energy with the scrap parts and condition soil with the other wastes you are helping in many other ways to boot.

What folks seem to not understand is the various ways folks are making energy from the wood. Not just burning it, which is a good method if all you want is heat. Slow roasting (baking) it produces extremely clean methane gas that can be tanked / stored for direct combustion or PEM energy generation. No need for a piston engine. Some local states are encouraging farmers with significant amounts of swampy / unproductive land to plant some newer fast growing hybrid hard willows that can produce tremendous amounts of wood per acre and annually harvested/chipped /dried very efficiently. If I had a few acres of it I would be looking to do it here also.

Look forward to seeing more on the project.

 

[speedmd]

Domestic wood-burning can really ruin urban air quality, such that doing so is banned in many towns in the UK.

Most of the issues can be traced to burning green /wet wood and incorrect burning methods which is common. Folks like to try to extend burning time by shutting down the air intake and closing the exhaust flew damper which makes a dirty, cold, inefficient and dangerous fire. It is not the fuel, its the operators. Very much like driving a fast wind hub motor slowly up hills to save your battery. Hot fires with dry wood run very clean. Cleaner than most oil burners.

 

[nutnspecial]

It's very good to hear some of you share my excitement with this stuff that's widely considered 'old' and '3rd world'.
Aquaponics, syngas, methane harvesting, do better at mimicking the natural world while improving human lives. Imo the deeper we manipulate things away from natural, (take the cons of atomic energy/weapons) the more dangerous to ourselves and the earth. And another benefit is many people can make use of it on a household basis without relying on big business and govment for their health/happiness.

This is not only very interesting and exciting stuff, but the more people safely taking personal responsibility for their own energy/food needs, the less centralized infrastructure we actally 'need' to 'take care' of people.
A step in the right direction imo.
Also personally I am skeptical of the sustainability and safety of some tech considered more modern, considering the raw materials, and mining and refining necessary to harness sunlight and store electrical energy. Possibly not as green imo, although I'm not trying to knock it.
Finding the best balance is kinda a personal responsibility imo, not just taking everything we're fed as gospel.

Just am trying to give some credit where credit is due, I love this stuff.

 

[Flying-low]

Domestic wood-burning can really ruin urban air quality, such that doing so is banned in many towns in the UK.

Most of the issues can be traced to burning green /wet wood and incorrect burning methods which is common. Folks like to try to extend burning time by shutting down the air intake and closing the exhaust flew damper which makes a dirty, cold, inefficient and dangerous fire. It is not the fuel, its the operators. Very much like driving a fast wind hub motor slowly up hills to save your battery. Hot fires with dry wood run very clean. Cleaner than most oil burners.

I agree, Speedmd,
One of the best ways to get a clean burn is to heat the incoming air.

 

[speedmd]

Agree, pre heat of the intake air critical. When heating, pulling air from outdoors is also critical. Most of the new furnace systems use forced venting through double walled piping. The outer pipe chambers are used for air intake which is pre heated from the inner tube chambers exhaust waste heat. Most of the current combustion systems really need O2 sensors to take them to the next step. Either you have too much excess O2 in the exhaust or you are starving the fire, just like a car running too lean or too rich.

 

[markz]

Was watching youtube, Gwen Stefani's new album and Bryan Adams old & new interviews and a video from this popped up as a selection after the video was done. I have looked into steam power when I was watching Jay Leno's garage but it seems they take up a huge space but steam has huge torque. Woodgas, Gasifier - I am tempted to buy an old truck for my business and do this. At first I was conserned about the visual aspects. The smoke, because it would stick out huge and cops would easily pull ya over. From my casual observations from Youtube videos, it looks like smoke is not an issue. I just wonder how much wood is needed to drive a certain amount. I would have to drive about 30 minutes out of town to an OHV area to get my free wood, so storage would be needed.

 

[Harold in CR]

As mentioned earlier, Google Wayne Keith. He has the nicest NON eye catching design. It's pretty compact and he drives all around the country in his woodgas powered full sized pickup truck.

As far as smoke, THAT is what you are burning. Watch an open fire. You are NOT burning the wood, directly. You are burning the GASSES FROM the wood. The flames are burning above the wood. Compressing any home made gas is energy inefficient. It takes fairly high pressure to be able to regulate the gas supply for a clean burn. 100 pounds pressure is just getting started. LPG, Propane, turns to a liquid at somewhere around 250 Pounds, IF I remember correctly. Below that pressure, it reverts to a gas inside the tank. That's why Propane is sold by weight or by the gallon.

My problem is, I don't need much gas to run my sawmill for a days worth of sawing. I will have WAYY more wood debris than I can use, so, what to do with all the excess???