Working On A Project - Referred Here By another forum

[jayneedshelp]

I was referred here by another forum, They specifically told me to ask for Dogman Dan & Justin, Whom I have been told have a good understanding of what I am trying to make happen, So here is the details

Well hello everyone, my name is Jay. I am the creator of a very popular Adventure travel blog. Recently I did a test ride for around (what was supposed to be 350 miles) 100 miles to prepare for a 3000 mile trip through Central America. The first 58 days starts in Mexico, and there are some serious elevation gains in this trip. The mountains alone have some staggering elevation gains. After the test trip which had a spot where there was a 7-mile hill that climbed from 800 feet ASL to around 3500 feet ASL I knew something would have to be done. Because this is a trip based on “everything on your back” I am not just riding my bike tooling through the countryside with a backpack. In this post is a photo showing the bike and the load I will carry.

My obstacles are this

1. I have a “29er” which I am now finding out may have been the wrong bike to buy
2. I have the space taken up by my frame bag that would normally accommodate an engine/battery pack
3. I need to keep all my gears on this bike; I am not interested in changing to a single gear set.
4. I have rear pannier systems that will need to stay where they are, again probably interfering with many gas/electric installs
5. I have no issue changing back to 26” or modifying a kit to work with my “29s”, but I do not have the information to do this at this point
6. I have a front suspension fork, I do not know if for electric hubs this would not allow them to run or be installed

The advantages I have are

1. I am not looking to turn my bike into a cross country speed scooter
2. I am only looking for an “Assist” to help me on some of the huge hills, the rest will be under my own steam
3. I think the added weight of a kit will be an acceptable tradeoff for the benefits
4. I have worked on scooters, bikes, electric scooters a lot, so I understand the mechanics to a competent degree

The final product would need to be

1. Lightweight
2. Able to go on an airliner
3. Somewhat easy to fix if it had an issue
4. Parts available
5. Be able to fit/adapt to my frame without destroying the entire bike
6. Be able to handle the load of myself as well as the full gear (the total weight of my gear is between 42-47 pounds) this is supported by rear panniers, a tent and sleeping bag and a few other items lashed to the back of the bike as seen in the photos!

As you can see I have a specific challenge in front of me. I also have not decided if electric or gas will serve me better. I am leaning towards electric just for the noise factor alone, but will not rule out a gas install either. I don’t even know if gas engines are allowed on an airliner.

The whole thing will be built and tested here in Phoenix. My end goal is to get a kit capable of “helping” me up some very big hills and let me do all the rest of the riding myself
I know for some this seems like a big cheat, but I don’t care, my sponsors for this trip understand what I am doing and fully support it.


I guess this post is a start on two different forums (electric and gas) to find out my options, pricing, timing, and building. I would appreciate any advice/suggestions.

I really do not want to sell the bike that was provided for this trip. I like it lots and want to hold onto it if at all possible

Jay

 

[amberwolf]

Given your bike's layout, and wheel size, and the hill climbing ability needed, and reliability and ease of repairs if necessary, I'd almost say a front hub with a battery on the front fork or a mount that seucres around the headtube to the triangle, so it helps hold the front down for traction. (and there really isn't anywhere else to put the battery with your other gear).

But: motors tend to be efficient and make less heat and more motive power out of the battery power fed them when they are running at speeds closer to their middle-to-top speeds, vs at lower speeds, which is what you may end up with when climbing long tall hills. That's what often kills hubmotors, as Dogman can tell you from multiple experiences.

Various cooling scenarios can be done to the motor, but each one is a compromise of some other factor.

Motors wound for slower speeds to start with will help, but can also be a compromise if you end up needing speeds faster than what they would normally top out at (may cause drag and heating in the motor).


Another option is one of the various bottom-bracket middrives. There looks to be room for it on your bike, and it seems tall enough to fit under the frame, and still clear many obstacles...but you migh thave issues with offroad scenarios. And they drive thru your regular pedal chain, adding a bit of wear, strain, etc.

There's some setups that can go thru a separate chain or belt to the left side of the rear wheel, but you don't get the benefit of shifting gears for more torque and less speed, etc., and you might be just as well off with a hubmotor in that case.

The gas kits I've seen (other than friction drives, which have their own issues in your situation) also drive thru the pedal chain, or else thru a chain or belt to the left side of the rear wheel. But I've never used a gas kit myself, so those on the other forum will be more expert about their advantages and pitfalls.


If I were going to do it with electric, I'd use a BB drive thru the pedal chain, and just carry extra chains, freewheels and sprockets/chainrings, tools and parts to fix the major things that could go wrong. This would let me shift gears for the motor and pedals for the best speed-vs-torque on each hill or slope, or on the flats.

But I don't know enough about the different BB drives to pick one. Spinningmagnets here on ES might be the best person to ask about that; he'll probably see this thread and respond.

The catch with ANY electric version is...where are you going to charge it? and how are you going to carry a big enough battery to help you far enough to get to the next charge point?

As much as I dislike them, at least with a gas engine, you can refill it anywhere there is someone with a car or truck that is willing to let you buy and siphon a cup or two of gas.

FWIW, there is a simulator by Justin on http://ebikes.ca/simulator for various hubmotors, controllers, battery types that let you mix and match them along with slope and throttle, etc., to see how each motor performs for efficiency, power, speed, overheating, etc., and you can setup A and B to compare two setups while you explore it, to keep one the same and vary things on the other to see what differences it creates. There are explanations of how to use it on the page at the bottom. Play with it a while and you'll see most of it is intuitive.

 

[motomech]

The idea of carrying batteries for a system to use only for hills is something we see a lot in theory, but it is not been shown to be practical with perhaps one exception.
I use the lightest practical geared hub motor and a small light weight lipo battery pack and even so, the extra effort of carrying it when not in use, makes me think the benefits are not worth the costs.
I can not explain why exactly, but the effort is higher that the added 10 to 15 lb.s and free-wheeling hub would lead one to believe it should be.
The exception might be a friction drive, specifily the Kepler friction drive.
And I think you will find, that no airline will allow batteries of any sort to be carried on board, period.
Not trying to rain on the parade, just giving you a heads up.
If you were to decide to go gas, I would avoid the "motor kits" that install in the frame. These are noisey, smelly two-cycle engines that are crude and not very realible.
Their have been conversions using either a Honda or Robin 4-cycle generator motor adapted on a rear rack, but at that point, why not just use a small Chinese motorbike?
If I were to do an adventure trip in C. Amer., the kind of trip where I would get into the back country, get to know and live like the locals, a trip where I would have freedom to cover distances if I wanted, without a legacy of break-downs, I would fly to the "start country" and buy a new cheap Chinese motorcycle, something around a 125cc.
When you buy a new bike in C. Amer., you get "provisional" paperwork, that would allow you to ride it legal in any country in C. Amer for 90 days. Then you could sell it for about 50% in your "finish" country or ride it back into the country where you bought it and sell it close to what you payed for it.
I'm not saying riding a bicycledown the Pan Amer. hiway can't be done. In the 15 years I lived in C. Amer., I met two guys would rode from the States to Costa Rica and saw, maybe, a dozen more who appeared to be doing the same. But they are braver sorts than me. The idea of doing all those miles on a two-lane without shoulders with semis bearing down, makes me cringe. And I might point out, the guys I met were riding road bikes and never ventured off the main hiway.
How's your Spanish?

 

[Gregory]

Not sure how easy it is to take batteries on planes. Maybe consider a motorised trailer, and just buy some massive lead acid batteries when you land.



Some threads about long distance rides that come to mind are...

Justin's ride across Canada http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7134

Glow Worm guys cycle across Australia http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52355

Kingfish has done some long tours e.g. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28573

 

[jayneedshelp]

I love all these threads, unfortunately they seemed to have some deep pockets, and what the glow-worm people are asking for those bikes is outrageous. I have always found it funny that people want us to use these methods of transportation yet they make them so expensive they are out of reach to even a basic middle class family.

Drive a hybrid car to work, it will only set you back 40k lol

Sorry not trying to be hostile, I am going to figure out how to do this, on the "cheaper" lol, and not with 2000 dollar solar panels the size of my tent!

I am going to talk to a guy local tomorrow that builds custom motor and electric builds, Ill report back then
My spanish is solid.

The issue with the pan american highway is its exactly as your describing it, which is EXACTLY why I am avoiding it! Also as for people making these trips in the traditional "touring" sense there are over 5000 every year that make the cancun-panama city run.

thanks for the help everyone so far!

 

[motomech]

The issue with the pan american highway is its exactly as your describing it, which is EXACTLY why I am avoiding it! Also as for people making these trips in the traditional "touring" sense there are over 5000 every year that make the cancun-panama city run

Yeah right. I have ridden motorcycles from Leon Nic. to Pamana City, more than once,
Exactly how does one avoid the Pan American hiway from, say, Managua Nic. to Puntarenas CR, for example? Or David Pa to Santiago? Hovercraft?
So you are saying 5000 people a year ride bicycles from Cancun to Panama??
You got some facts to back that up?
Your lack of real World experience is showing.

 

[jayneedshelp]

This is not a pissing contest, i refuse to get into it with some guy from a web forum, To many "internet badasses" out there

I came here for help on making this trip happen! Go find your own facts!

"The idea of doing all those miles on a two-lane without shoulders with semis bearing down, makes me cringe. "

Some people have the balls, some don't!

 

[cj7hawk]

I would think that the electric/gas question would be solved by the factors of range and availability to charge. If it was just a question of usability, electric wins hands down.

Anyway, it may not be suitable as it's still in development, but here's a bridged solution - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68164

That's a gas/electric system that can recharge on the go and provide enough power to drive the system while recharging - it's a fairly quiet 4-stroke and isn't that loud as it would be at fairly low revs when just charging, but can increase power to offset battery drain, and could be made to clip-on to the system and could be detached and dropped if it was a problem. A smaller unit could easily provide a charge and some power towards operational levels too. I guess it depends on how much you want to carry - in any event, the prototype worked and I'm working on the second prototype now to address the problems identified by the first. operational range of the first prototype under test wasn't great - only about 51km/l ( about 130 mpg ) while charging and providing power to drive the bicycle at the same time - but that's still pretty efficient. Such a system could be modified to have panniers also, and could also host an upper rack over the motor.

There are also gas/electric hybrid systems, but they seem to be made more for trikes.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention it -

David

 

[Raged]

Nice 29er =).

Id suggest BBS02 kit and 10Ah of 12S lipo in a front tube pannier so you can pull it off for charging when you want to. if you are a strong peddler and just need that extra bit of boost, just use throttle to conserve battery power (compared to using full pedelec which is always on when you pedal). I find that once my 29er is already rolling, it doesnt take much effort to maintain speed.

 

[p'tite AS]

I'm not the best person to answer but I want to insist on what Gregori mentioned: the problem of taking a battery on a plane. Most of them are not allowed or need to be shipped as hazmat material (only certified companies can do that).
So don't forget looking into this before you get yourself a whole kit

Oh and thought a motor with a suspension fork was not recommended (meaning that you would want to go with a rear motor then), but I might be wrong

 

[dogman dan]

At risk of getting dogpiled here, maybe you need a gas kit. Or get really affordable, and convert an old weed whacker motor, and run that with a belt drive attached to a pulley on the left side. Bolt the pulley to the disc brake mounts.

All that cargo, that can go on a cheap bob trailer, freeing up the rear rack, or the triangle for the motor, belt and pulley. The trailer can be less than $100.

Electric is nice, but it could be better to just gas it for your needs. Only one real option if you do want to go electric, a geared hubmotor. For intermittent use, you cannot use a cheaper direct drive kit. Then you won't carrying much battery, You'll have at best a budget for a few RC hobby packs. Those you would buy, then ship them to an address in Mexico, not the US.

I see it as a $1000-$1500 budget, or gas.

Or am I confused about the budget? If you have a decent budget, get a Mac 10t, or other similar, on the large side geared rear hubmotor. You'll still have seven gears, and the same big lowest gear. You can test with a small battery stateside, then pick up the battery you will use on the trip once in Mexico. You just need a place that will let you receive a package down there.