Workman Stretch Mover Electric Trike - power not speed

I drove the trike all weekend moving passengers from pub to pub. No, I didn't charge anything for the ride. Most of the folks are friends or just wanted a ride for the heck of it. I had one problem with the build, that was the throttle broke some how. My guess is that a lot of people were checking out the trike and they were flicking the throttle breaking the magnet off inside. [you must use a key switch to turn off the main power when you not around] As a temp fix I wired the horn button to the controller as an on off button. With a few pumps of the peddle I could engage the motor and off we went. This has turned into a great vehicle for running to the store due to the storage under the rear seats. Having bike lanes added all around town is allowing me to take my time and look around. As requested, I've added a picture of the 3 speed drive system. The motor is a 450 watt 24v Currie unit. If you want low speed power and have a 3-spd trike, I believe this is a good direction to go for the money. Around $200 for the motor, controller, throttle and a free spin sprocket.
 
Update: I have just ordered a 24V-40AH-V2.5-LiFePO4 pack with high rate BMS and 10a charger from Pingbattery.com. I can't wait to swap out the heavy SLA batteries! I'm told a 2 week wait to build, test and ship. But expecting it to be closer to 3 weeks.

I been having problems with 3 wire throttles. It seems the little chip is going bad and this is the second one to do this. Is this a part I can buy from radioshack? I'd like to try to fix the unit as a spare. In between time, I ordered a Magura throttle because it seems to be a better quality unit by just looking at the picture. I'll know more in time...

Now for the bad new: I can only help pedal this trike up to 6 mph, after that my feet can't move fast enough. This works well when starting off and maneuvering through a crowded area. But there are plenty of times I'd simply like to pedal while looking around. I thought about enlarging the front sprocket but I'd lose the maneuvering ability. There is soo much to think about when building a chain drive system verses a hub motor. But I do like shifting the gears and the additional torque to pull the heavy loads this trike sees.
 
THe little chip is an analog (sometimes called linear) output hall effect sensor. If you look at the face of it you'll see a part number on it, and if you go to Mouser.com you can click on the tech help chat to have them help you find the closest equivalent to it if it does not come up in their search box. If they don't have it, Digikey probably does. If neither of them does, Avnet could.

Regarding the pedal problem, a larger front ring is one option. Another is to add a jackshaft somewhere along the chainline from the front pedal chainring to where it connects into the drivetrain. At that jackshaft, use a very small chainring to receive the chain from the pedals, and another larger chainring to continue back to the drivetrain. That will do the same thing as a single front larger ring would.
 
Sorry amberwolf, I did not see your reply until today. I'll look up the folks you suggested and see if they can help. The Magura throttle looks to be a better quality unit. Only one issues, the throttle spring is not returning the throttle back to zero when I release it. It seems to stick. I'll work on that...

The battery pack came in from Li Ping at PingBattery. Shipping was fast, about 10 days. Package was only scuffed and the internal packaging was amassing. There was a lot of effort put into making sure everything arrived safely. I plugged in the BMS harness and charged the pack last night. After about 2 hours the lights started to flicker and then stay on. Tonight I'll install the pack into the trike.

A couple question for the people who know....?
Is there a direction the pack needs to be mounted? Can the pack go into a plastic battery box without having a heat or breathing issue? If a battery box can be used, should the 10 amp charger be in the same box? Should the 10 amp charger be on the bike? Can I use a 2.5 amp 24v SLA charger?

My general thoughts moving forward: I was thinking that since my old 24v SLA charger has been working well mounted on the trike, that if doable, I'd continue to use it when I'm away from home just to top things off [again, if possible]. When home I'd use the 10 amp unit in the evenings. This would keep the 10 amp unit safe from the weather and bumps of the road. Please remember that since this is a Rickshaw trike, it is too big and heavy to bring inside when it rains, unless you have a garage. Thus the battery must be left on the trike. There is a 25 foot retractable power cord that comes out of the trike to connect to any 120v power source to recharge the battery.

Any suggestions?
 
I think the 24V SLA charger will work fine. The voltage might be slightly lower than what the Ping charger puts out, but that certainly won't hurt anything. The balancing circuits in the BMS might not kick in, but it won't matter. The point is to be able to do quick opportunity charges. You can do the full overnight charge and balance cycle at home.

-- Gary
 
Thanks for the reply GGoodrum, I was hopping for that answer. I don't expect to need more battery power than what I'll get at night. but since I have the smaller charger and cord installed, I thought it would be great to take advantage of it if possible.

any thoughts on putting the ping battery in a plastic box? possible heat or weather issues
 
If you can find a box for it to fit in, I think it is a good idea. Don't worry about heat. These just don't get hot. You will want to protect the pack from the elements, though, especially the BMS and its connections.

-- Gary
 
I found a small battery box at pep-boys last night and it seems microphone connectors match the ping charger so I bought a few of them as well. I cut a couple holes in the battery box and added plugin charging ports for both the old SLA charger and the ping charger. I added foam to fill the gaps between the battery box and battery. I then had to find away to splice the #4 wire coming off the battery to the #20 wire running to the key switch. I found an underground splicing kit in the electrical department at HomeDepot that works perfect. The kit makes a mechanical splice that can be removed if the need arises and it's has a plastic housing to protect from shorting. Tonight I'll mount the battery box to the frame via the box handles.

I have run into one problem, the LED lights on my trike are 12volt. This was not a problem when I was running SLA, I simply wired them to just one of the batteries. Now I need to change the lighting. Any good suggestion for 24 volt LED lighting? I like LED's and 24 volt would be handy as I'll connect everything to the one keyed power switch.
 
I added a bike speedometer to the front wheel. Then measured the wheel and keyed that number into the unit to calibrate it. Max speed on flat perfect road with just me [250lbs] in 3rd gear is 18mph. With 3 passengers, myself and 2 friends, max speed is 16mph. The ping battery has increased my range to over 15 miles without any sign of power loss.

I have reworked the existing lighting to the trike. I learned that if you connect to 2 12 volt LEDs in series they will work on 24 volts. [I knew this about filament bulbs but not about LEDs] This makes the existing 12volt lighting system doable on 24volt with just a minor wiring change.

I have also built a trailer for the trike out of and old trike frame and a steel concrete mixing pan. This works great for hauling stone, sand, mulch and even concrete block. The trike has no problems hauling a load in second gear. But you must keep the speed down due to that amount of weight with just the one front brake. Oh and speed bumps suck, you really need to slow down for them. I put in a call to Worksman Cycles about adding a disc brake to the rear axle.
 
Zap, I have never heard of a push trailer or ever even though of that idea. That's pretty cool! Can your trailer take bulk weight? Can you add brakes? My biggest concern is Braking at this time. I need to come up with a rear brake.
 
jeff peterson said:
Can your trailer take bulk weight? Can you add brakes? My biggest concern is Braking at this time. I need to come up with a rear brake.
Click to expand...
I've stood on my trailer's deck, 175 lbs, and it did flex but it took it. I've hauled about 60 lbs max so far. I never tested the actual deck but I did tests with mock ups while I was building and I would guess it would start breaking somewhere around 2 or 3 lbs/sq. inch? I have a feeling other parts of the trailer would start breaking before the deck did. The trailer frame is an old Burely rated for 100 lbs.
My deck (and trailer bottom) is made from hollow core door skins (luan plywood) laminated to both sides of 1/2" Tuff-R foam insulation.

I could add brakes but it would be a chore and regen braking would be nigh impossible because of the freewheel cluster.
The trailer suffers from too little traction (46 lbs) so I don't think brakes would do a whole lot.

Sorry I can't help with your brakes. I liked your idea of braking the 3 speed hub... did you go anywhere with that thought?
 
Hey Zap,
I liked your idea of braking the 3 speed hub... did you go anywhere with that thought?/quote]
Like you, I can't do a regen braking do to everything free spinning. The Worksman trike came with a 3 spd / coaster brake on the rear. But I wanted the 3 spd for the motor thus lost the rear brake. I guess I could add a circuit that could reverse the motor slowly, thus in allowing the motor to apply the coaster brake.... I just don't think that that's a control worthy idea.

I'm waiting on a call from Worksman, But my thought at this time is adding a rear brake that's mounting it to the 7/8" rear axle.
Staton offers a Adaptor for freewheel 7/8" ID x 1-3/8-24 OD x 1/2" wide
Electric Scooter Parts offers Threaded disk brake rotor adaptor, 160mm disk brake rotor with 6 hole mounting, Disk Brake Caliper With Brake Pads, Dual Brake Lever Set With Switches and Wiring Harness and then I just need to figure out brake cable length.
Click to expand...
 
A coaster brake typically has to be rotated in reverse to brake. So he'd have to make the motor that drives it run in reverse to do that, or have it cut off and pedal reverse to do it.

Perhaps put a sensor on the cranks that determines their direction of rotation, and cut off the motor power when rotated in reverse so that they will then operate the coaster brake.

But I think if there are any freewheels involved it won't work, and thus you wouldn't be able to rotate the cranks backwards until after the motor has already stopped, making the sensor/etc pointless. ;)
 
I wanted to use this feature of a pair of Sachs 3speeds Spinningmagnets sent me, but haven't figured out a good way to do it. I'd either need contactors to reverse the motor connections of my brushed motors, or a full-bridge controller. Neither one is particularly appealing, though the controller solution would require less engineering at my end, since I would not have to deal with spindown, etc.--it would do that for me with just a signal on the Reverse input line (from the brake lever in this case).

Assuming of course that the controller was well-engineered, rather than leaving it up to the user to ensure all conditions necessary for reverse were already met before engaging it.

I would still need a little electronics outside the controller though. A little circuit that cuts off the regular throttle input, and puts it's own throttle control input instead, immediately after the Reverse input is triggered by braking. That way the motor is not accidentally triggered full blast in reverse, breaking stuff inside the hub, but is held in reversed position by minimal throttle until braking is stopped.

That gives only full braking. If I wanted to modulate the braking force, I would need to monitor the brake lever position, and use that as the throttle input instead of a fixed low-% of throttle.

It gets complicated pretty quick, so I decided it is easier to figure out how to mount disc brakes onto the hubs, or use rim brakes, than it is to deal with the coaster brake by motor power.


I did have an alternate mechanical braking option using a rod or cable activated manually, but it would require rotating the entire hub's axle/torque-arm forward while maintaining it's anchor to the frame to prevent spinout. I don't feel confident enough in the ways I have to make the parts to be sure it wouldn't fail under use, compared to a simple fixed dropout as it was intended for.


Since a power or controller or motor failure would also cause zero braking ability, that was a further motivation to skip the motor-activated coaster idea and go right to the fully-mechanical rim or disc brakes, plus a mechanical brake on the pedal-only wheel.
 
I got a call from Worksman, I can add a second brake to the front wheel. I'll call it a rim brake since I don't know the correct term. Worksman states that the front rim edge on my bike is rounded, so it will not work as well as if it was grabbing a flat wall rim. But they feel it would be a good addition to the existing drum brake. if this does not work as expected, as least I'll have some good parts for the next project. Has anyone tried the EZ Rider Trike? or the same unit for 2 passengers? They look like a sports car compared to my trike and comes with all the trimmings....
 
Another update: I've added a speedometer to the trike's front wheel which I bought from k-mart. To program it I just had to measure the front wheels surface area with a tape measure. very simple to do. Since adding the speedometer I have traveled 150 miles, average speed is 12mph with a powered max speed of 18.7mph [strong tail wind]. I've ordered the extra brake for the front wheel. But more important to me was that I went 20.4 mile on the trike without recharging the Ping battery. I hope I never have to go back to lead acid batteries! There is only one drawback so far, that is that the Currie motor has a slight wine. I may try to add a vinyl cover to hide some of the motor whine and make to build look a bit neater. the cover may also keep some of the road dust off the motor and chain....
 
For your 12v LED light to run off of 24v, there are at least a couple of options. one is to use a linear regulator since i expect that it has low current draw. Another is a small buck converter. If you had two of the lights, you could put them in series.
 
by Solcar » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:47 am

For your 12v LED light to run off of 24v, there are at least a couple of options. one is to use a linear regulator since i expect that it has low current draw. Another is a small buck converter. If you had two of the lights, you could put them in series.
Click to expand...

Thanks Solcar, I figured that out later on. I didn't know that LEDs would work in both parallel and series. I have front, side and rear LEDs on both the left side and right. so I tried connecting both halves in series and it worked. Dumb luck. I connected the lights to the power key so when ever the battery power is turned on the lights are on. I also added a LED handle bar light the works on 3 - AAA batteries as a back up.
 
Another update:
Brakes: I was able to add a disc brake to the 7/8" rear axle. I was afraid I would be able to lock up the rear and lose control of the trike. That was not the case. The brake does work well and is totally controllable. I should have taken pictures, but I didn't. I'll try to remember to do that this coming weekend.

Electrical Problem:
It seems the 10 amp charger, that came with the Ping battery, is no longer charging. I didn't know the charger was not working until the battery turned itself off. I have checked the 2 fuzes that are on the outside of the charger and they are fine. I sent a note to Ping this morning asking what to do as the charger is still under warranty. I don't know if there are other things I could check before sending it back? I also asked if I could charge the pack with a 2.5 amp 24v SLA charger without hurting the battery?
 
If the 10A charger is like others I've heard about, the wire could be broken just inside the battery-end connector of it, or elsewhere along it's length. Does the charger have LEDs on it to show it's operating, or a fan that comes on during use? If so, are those working, but it just not getting any output to the battery?

If so, the wire is the most likely thing to have failed, and is relatively easy to fix yourself if you don't want to send it back to Ping (or if he will let you try that without voiding any warranties on the charger).


As long as the Ping is a 24V pack with a hot-off-the-charger of no less than the 24V SLA charger puts out at max, then there's no reason not to use the SLA charger, if you're willing to reconfigure it's connector to match your Ping connector (or they are already the same and same wiring).

If the SLA output is just a little higher voltage than the Ping charges to, it might still be ok but only if the BMS can safely shunt the extra current this is going to generate, and shed the extra heat that doing so will generate.

If it's a lot higher (couple of volts) I would not use it unless Ping advises to do so for a specific reason.
 
Thanks for the reply amberwolf. Ping just emailed back telling me it was ok to use the SLa charger. He said it might not fully charge the pack because the 24 volts are not high enough to balance it, but it will not hurt it. Also, that if the SLA charger does charge the battery, the problem is likely in the Ping charger.

Sadly the trike is now 100 miles away, but a friend plugged in the SLA charger for me and said it was charging. I'm guessing it could take 24 hours or more to fully recharge the 24v 40a pack using a 24v 2.5a SLA charger.

Ping has ask me to check a few reading on the charger while plugged in and unplugged. But I'm now at work, it will just have to wait until I get home. I have a feeling he is thinking the same thing as you. [That a lead could be broken] I would disagree with that idea as I made an 75 foot extension cord for the charger. Normally the charger stays put in a cool and clean house, while the extension charging cord is plugged in and out all the time. But it just so happened that I added that rear disc brake. When I did that, I brought the trike inside, I disconnected the extension cord and used the charger directly into the battery. Thus plugging and unplugging that connector. So you could be right and I'm hoping you are.

The Ping charger info: The Charger shows a red light when plugged into an outlet. When it's plugged into the battery the green light no longer come on, nor does the fan. It like it does not know to charge the pack. [like a broken connector] But like I said, I'm at work. It'll just have to wait until tonight.......... Thanks again for the reply and great ideas! I'll post my findings....
 
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