Workman Stretch Mover Electric Trike - power not speed

[jeff peterson]

I agree, it seems the 2 Currie motors I have are not quite the same in size or rpm. but for the dollar, they seem to hold up.

I'm not against a jackshaft. I like the idea that you can run one motor if needed. But I'm limited on space under the trike. And I truly don't understand why someone has not come up with a freewheel for the Currie motor. Or a 1000 watts unit with the reduction gear and freewheel.... everyone would want it.

I think the best fit for my trike is the 650 watt Cyclone. Coming with a freewheel attached is handy. But It's the cost of $500 I'm having a problem with.

On the bright side, I noticed that Staton now sell what I need to re-install disc brakes on my trike! I'll order that stuff this week.

 

[dumbass]

Lets assume you could fit a freewheel onto a Currie gearbox shaft. You would have a new grearing problem going from the stock 9t to a 13t freewheel. !3t is as small as you can grt in a true freewheel unless you use a one way bearing freewheel which can ve slightly smaller.

Honestly I don't think I would recommend the 650 Cyclone setup. I have 2 small 360w Cyclones on my old bikes. They have worked very well for me. Except the small motors have the controller built into the motor. BAD idea. The 650w is a stand alone though. But they use the same gearbox on all their motors. From what I have read the 650 and 900w motor destroy the gears very quickly. And their about as noisy as the Currie. But they are more eff then the Currie.

 

[jeff peterson]

I have read the same thing about the 650 and up cyclone, but did not know they were louder the Currie. That's too bad. I don't think I could jump to a 13t freewheel without more modifications. I guess what I want does not exist at this time. I'll think about add a jack shaft to the design this winter. Until then, I believe the trike is back in service and its time to start riding again.

On the positive side:
I'm happy with the power and speed of this trike using 2 450 watt Currie motors, the Nuvinci Developer Kit and Pings 24v 40ah battery pack. I notice a lot less chain and freewheel noise. There is a huge increase of low speed torque as well as speed control under 5mph. There is also an average speed increase of 2mph, maxing to 5mph on flats. I kinda miss shifting the gears, but I can tell that the computerized Nuvinci shifting truly gives the trike a more consistent performance at all times because its alway in the correct gear (ratio). I do not know how long the Nuvinci hub will last, but during to short time I have used it, it's the best addition I have made since changing from SLA batteries to the Ping pack. Those of you that have made the battery swap will understand what I mean....

On the negative side:
Sad to say, I (personally) don't think internal gear hubs can handle 900 watts of power and my abuse. I'm guessing that 450 watts is about the max I'd use if you wish to use one of those hubs. I have also learned that not all tires are the same. The 20" tires that came with the trike lasted about 1200 miles, 20" K-mart tires are bald at 300 miles. Any tire suggestions, both what to look for when buying and where to buy would be helpful.

 

[jeff peterson]

Trike is still working well and I have nothing but positive things to say about the Nuvinci hub. I'm hoping the rear disc brake parts arrive this week, the trike is a bit too heavy and fast for the single front drum brake.

Here are a few pictures of the trike with the hub installed.

 

[dumbass]

Jeff, Am I seeing things or do you have a chain on the other side of the hub as well? I can see the drive side has 2 sprockets in use but it also looks like you have a 3rd chain on the other side. Looking at your install I would think you could install a jack-shaft on the angle iron between the motors for a freewheel setup for the motors. Or can you use the free your currently using for the peddle chain and then put a freewheel on your crank sprocket. That's a common setup with a Cyclone motor.

Bob

 

[jeff peterson]

yes, thats a third chain sprocket on the right side using the 6 disc brake screws. both the input and output are 27t. I believe the free wheel is 18 and the front is 42. This allows me to pedal at the start and all the way to full speed due to the hubs automatic ratio changing system.

I plan to remove the existing mounts and make some othere mount this winter. I like the idea of using just one motor if the other were to fail. But at this time I'm just using the bike and tweeking the hub's personallity.

 

[jeff peterson]

Here are a few of the latest issues and my repairs:
- Some how I broke the odometer wires just before reaching 2000 miles. Guessing I over rotated the handlebars. Time to stop at the local K-mart for a new one and change the mounting location.

- I’ve also been going through quite a few rear 20” BMX bicycle tires. I’m only getting about 350 miles per tire. I have recently bought 2 motorcycle tires and tubes as replacements. Though a bit harder to install, you have to love the thicker tread and sidewalls. The matching tubes are also better made and worth buying. The price was about $7 more than a bicycle tire. Do to the weight of my Rickshaw/Trike and the number of passengers or load I often carry, I think this is a win win addition.

- I’ve also added a cheap battery powered LED headlight. Under $4 at Harbor Freight, it has 27 LED’s and only uses 3AAA batteries. I mounted it using 2 zip ties. Harbor Freight also sells a 4 LED bike light for $8, but I didn’t like the design as much. Oh, and the batteries that come with the lights only prove that the lights work. Toss them and put in good batteries before mounting.

- The original Currie 450 watt motor started making a lot of noise. It seems the bearings on the reduction gear started to fail. Though I’m sure I can find replacement bearings. I replaced the complete motor unit. I’ll store the old motor for parts I’m sure I’ll need in the future.

 

[dumbass]

Yes you can buy replacement bearings on Ebay for a few bucks each. YOu may want to replace both front and back bearing though. Be advised they are different bearings. You should be able to find the bearing number on the side shield. I would also recommend that you consider buying "sealed" bearings instead of the stock shielded bearings.

Bob

 

[jeff peterson]

Thanks Bob, I agree with you. Both bearing and Sealed is the way to go!
I didn't know the numbers were on the side of the bearings or that they are different. Thats a great tip! I'll order a few extras just to have on hand.
I wish someone would make a way to connect two 450 Currie motors together. Or just make one strong 750 to 1000 watt gear reduction motor with a free spinning bicycle chain sprocket.

 

[TylerDurden]

Some members have doubled the 450W motors with good results.

I might make a freewheel adapter for this motor:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13622

http://www.thesuperkids.com/scelscmo24vo.html

 

[jeff peterson]

Interesting, it seems the shaft is on the opposite side in the picture compared to the website?
I use 2 450w 24v currie motors with a Nuvinci Developer Kit now. low is about 7mph, that's starting off. Then the Nuvinci hub starts doing it magic and the speed starts to increase up to 25mph on the flats. I'm not set up for 36v.

 

[TylerDurden]

I flipped the shaft for space estimations, no issues flipping it back.

The motor is brushed. You can run it at 24V and gear for the difference.

 

[jeff peterson]

I like the idea of saving space, possibly one motor rather than two and the option of flipping the shaft.
Some questions:
At 24v would I get 1000w of power? In other words, at 24v, would this motor be more powerful than the 2 450w motors I'm using now?
What would be the rotation speed of the output shaft at 24v?
Would I need to worry about the motor heating up due to a lower voltage?
Sorry about the questions, but I still don't know a lot about this stuff.

 

[dumbass]

I like the idea of saving space, possibly one motor rather than two and the option of flipping the shaft.
Some questions:
At 24v would I get 1000w of power? In other words, at 24v, would this motor be more powerful than the 2 450w motors I'm using now?
What would be the rotation speed of the output shaft at 24v?
Would I need to worry about the motor heating up due to a lower voltage?
Sorry about the questions, but I still don't know a lot about this stuff.

Jeff, Are you still running 1 24v Ping or do you have 2 24v pings? If you have 2 24v packs you could use that 1000w 36v motor with 2 24v packs. If you series wire the packs for 48v and install a new 48v controller. You then install a resistor on the throttle return leg to limit the current to 36v or maybe a little more if you like.

A 36v motor delivering 1000w will not be 1000w at 24v unless you have a big ass 42a 24v controller. And while it would draw the same 1000w I don't know that it would actually be the same. However, a single 1000w 36v motor will be more powerful then your 2 24v 450w motors. As we both know the twin setup is not balanced and 1 motor is doing a lot more work then the other. So the lazy motor is just that ....lazy and the heavy hitter motor is likely getting a lot warmer then normal. Therefore, drawing more current while delivering less power. That's why I am currently doing away with my twin motor setup and going with a single 1500w 48v brushless MAC motor/controller. But on my old bike I am going with 1 of the 24v 450 brushed Currie motors and going to set it up with the 48v controller and use a resistor as I mentioned.

FYI, the rotation speed will be very close the proportional to the voltage. So at 24v it will be about 2/3 the rotaional speed as at 36v. To bad they don't indicate the RPM at 36v.

BTW, have you ever sonsidered using a geared HUB motor? You should be able to find a 750w+ geared hub motor that would do very well for your project.

Bob

 

[jeff peterson]

Bob,
I have only one Ping battery which is 24v 40a. If I were to do it again, I would have bought 2 - 24v 20a batteries. Oh well.....

Since you're telling me I could run one 36v 1000v motor on 24v and get more power. That's what I'll buy when my twin motor setup fails. This would get rid of the extra wiring and lazy motor issue. I wonder if I could re-use the 2 30a controllers?

I stayed away from the hub motors since the existing front tire contains the heavy duty drum brake. I find, due to the weight I often haul, that that drum brake is very handy to have. In addition, I added a disc brake to the main axle for additional braking power.

A side thought, I have a very old [guessing 1940's] asian trike. I bought it with the idea of just using the frame and tossing the rest. After cleaning it up, I found it to be a work of art. It's way to ornate to see a dumpster so I've been storing it for years trying to come up with a way to use it. Have you seen or heard of anyone electrifying one?

 

[ddk]

... I have a very old [guessing 1940's] asian trike. I bought it with the idea of just using the frame and tossing the rest. After cleaning it up, I found it to be a work of art. It's way to ornate to see a dumpster so I've been storing it for years trying to come up with a way to use it. Have you seen or heard of anyone electrifying one?

requesting pictures

 

[dumbass]

OK, running a 36v 1000w motor on 24v should yield about 666w. Not actually more then what you have with the 2 450 motors. But not really that far off power wise because of the poor eff of running twin motors. And I would certainly think the eff would improve.

I wasn't actalking talking about using a hub motor for a hub motor. I was saying to use it as a non-hum setup. If you do a search on ES you will find that a lot of people have done this. The StokeMonkey setup is said to be a hub motor converted to be used as a non-hub setup. The reason I questioned do ing this is because you can buy geared hub motors that have a very low gear ratio that may work very well for your high loads.

I don't know what brand controllers you have but Currie controllers are actually 35a 24v. In any case your existing controller should work on the 36v motor. Unless your in a rush you might want to do a little more looking for a new motor setup. I would also contact Ping and ask what it would cost to add 12v 30a to your current pack. If you could add this for say $200 or so wouldn't it be better to keep this 36v motor as a 36v motor? A 36v controller isn't that expensive.

No clue on that old trike. But I'd be sure before you do anything to it that it has no $ value as an antique.
Bob

 

[jeff peterson]

Bob,
I understand a bit about the the losses due to 24v. And I was thinking about having another battery made. I have an old robotic lawnmower that needs 2 12v SLA batteries if I plan to use it this summer. I have emailed Ping about using one of his packs to replace the SLA's. If I did that, I'd have to buy 2 12v 20a, which could be swapped into the trike as a additional 12v 40a. Thus a final 36v 40a total for the trike. This thought seems kinda complicated.... I have a feeling I'll do nothing until the dual motor setup fails. Then the single motor will make more sense as an upgrade / replacement.

Using a hub motor... I understand what your saying now. I saw a trike on line [EZRider Trike] it used the hub motor as a mid drive. Pretty cool looking trike!

Picture:
The old trike looks like this one I found online, but I seem to have more pieces as well as the front brake system. It would take a few hours to get the trike out of storage and take pictures.

 

[dumbass]

Hey Jeff,

Yeah, in a perfect world you would want to find a motor with twice the HP but still running at 24v. But I'm afraid that maybe very dificult to find. Using the mowers pack to creat the additional 12v is a great idea. Sort of killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Problem being the mower is likely 24v so the new pack would have to be a true twin 12v packs to use for both projects. Something you can look into though is that mower motor. The 1500w MAC motor I am going to eventually install on my Ezip is said to be originally designed for a lawn mower. It currently is hard to find but is sold to run at 24v to 72v with 48v being the recomended voltage. If you were willing to kill the mower you could look into using it's motor on the bike. The biggest problem being it maybe a brushless motor that would require a new controller and there wouldn't be a gear reduction on it. Of course for your usage an off the shelf setup would always be best.

I wouldn't do anything to that old trike you have. Have you have ever watch the show "Pickers" ? These guys come across a lot of old bike that are worth a lot of money. And I have to think that thing is very rare to find. So it could pay for a very nice modification for your current project.

Bob

 

[jeff peterson]

Bob,
The I-mow robotic lawn mower has 5 small motors within it's shell. 3 that direct drive 3 - 8" blades and 2 that power the 2 drive wheels. The mower is over 10 years old, I'm alway surprised every time it head off to cut the grass. I don't think it's worth the time removing the motors The 2 SLA batteries needed to run the mower have gone up in price. They are now about $80 a piece. I'd rather put the money towards a Ping pack. Of course I could buy a 36v pack and use the old 24v pack in the mower.... Thinking ahead, I bought a BatteryMinder desulfinating charger to see if it would bring the old SLA batteries back to life. So far, I have not seen an improvement with the SLA's. On the bright side, the BatteryMinder did recharge the old Mustang's battery.

I looked on Ebay a minute ago, there's a person selling a front loading Rickshaw for $3000. That's a bit high, I was thinking maybe 3 to 4 hundred range would be great. I had a guy offer $150 for the leather seat. I don't know how true an offer that was... but I did want to part the Rickshaw out. Like my old Mustang, I can not part out a working machine. And I don't know how to correctly sell it.

 

[amberwolf]

Picture:
The old trike looks like this one I found online, but I seem to have more pieces as well as the front brake system. It would take a few hours to get the trike out of storage and take pictures.

That looks like a nice trike. You could even turn it into one rideable from the rear seat, using remote steering, if you liked. Like JustinLE (and later me, not knowing he'd already done this), add a second pair of handlebars using the seattube as the pivot point, with tie-rods connecting the front and rear bars. If you want to also pedal it it would require very long legs or adding a second BB bolted to the frame and a chain run from it to the front BB to then pass to the regular drivetrain.

 

[dumbass]

OK Jeff, I was think the mower was one big motor like a walk behind has. I think your idea of using your old Ping on the mower and buying a new Ping for the bike is a great idea. If you did that you would have no limitation on the voltage even. You could then consider 2 24v packs that you could keep as 24v or jump up to 48v. Or as you said go to a 36v pack. For sure the higher you can aford to go in voltage the better options you have in motors. How large of a sprocket could you fit under the bike if you needed to?

Take a look at this link for the American Pickers......Hell, who knows maybe they'll stop buy and give you an offer on the bike.

http://www.history.com/shows/american-pickers/articles/want-to-be-on-american-pickers

Bob

 

[ddk]

about pictures
Lots of different rickshaws made as many, if not most were custom-built

maybe you'd be amused by this thing made in Hungary

 

[jeff peterson]

Amberwolf,
I thought about doing that to my electric trike I run now. I felt the seat tube could be used to hold up a top/wind screen. I can't bring myself to make any changes to the old trike. I feel I'll devalue it or brake something.

Bob,
I added the nuvince hub, so the gearing is quite low now. If I do not allow the hub to shift up, my max speed in low is 6-8 mph. I can throw sand if it's on the road in low. I can reach speeds of 25 mph on the flats carrying a reasonable load.

DDK,
It seems that the frame is a stock item, but the theme seems to change from trike to trike. For example my trike's theme is a Winged Horse. It looks like the theme of the trike I uploaded is an eagle. The rear seating carage is made of wood, guessing by hand. I do not know how they were sanded and painted to look like metal. They all seem to have been electrified as I have the same lighting on my trike. In fact I have a lot more lights around the rear wheels and 2 rear red lamps as well as the 3 front facing driving lights you see in the picture. My trike has an old battery still in a holder under the seat. Wiring looks like the insides of an old pinball machines, kinda simple and crude with ground wires that are uninsulated or they use the trike's frame. wire connectors are small nails mounted to the wood inside the carage.

Check this direct drive rear axle system from Pedillac.
http://www.pedillac.com/REAR_DRIVE_AXLES.php

 

[ddk]

HOLY FISHSTEAKS
that's one nice drive/full differential internal furnagrater thingy.

And I do appreciate that little motor, as I use one as a 'hill-climbing-part-time assist' motor on my trike, along with a more common geared hub motor on the front wheel.
I wonders how one might acquire that gearbox....

I had the opportunity, some 40 years ago, to observe guys customizing pedecabs do their thing.
Whilst I was very entertained, I refrain from adopting their art.
My own builds of whatever only go as far as 'functional'.
no time fur artsy crap in my endeavors.

maybe because I'm lucky to gets things functional lol.