Mr. Gruber, your subject title should have been it's own thread, such a great subject. Just the kind of thing Indivisible wants to screw up. Let me play some handball against the curb and THEN I can get to the point:
leisesturm said:
you are not a history buff, but you are interested in the historical reasons for America's greatness.
There is no conflict in that. He doesn't have to be fanatical to celebrate 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day.
He might be happier with a degree of historical perspective from someone who DOESN'T lie to him, who doesn't make up his little known historical facts as he writes them. ('Airline pilots made $100k a year in 1970 and continue to today?' Good Lawrd.)
It's because I love history that I've learned so much of it. That's why I see through your efforts to deceive him.
leisesturm said:
The first Americans were COLONISTS. Their venture was supported by resources from 'the old country'.
Jamestown was not resupplied for over 3 years. They survived on their own, gaining cooperation from the Indians and getting into the local politics. Captain Smith became the 'Paramount Chief' and brought some relative peace to the region. The Indians ultimately liked him better than at least SOME of his own people,hence the Indians feeling loss at his absence. But he's called the 'First American' to say "He who doesn't not work, does not EAT."
Largely, they survived by making it work here, not by being taken care of. (More on that. . . .)
leisesturm said:
But then, as now, tax abhorrence was a thing with Americans. So they had the Mother of All Tax Revolts, and, for a time, it was "money for nothing, chicks for free". But eventually America had to grow up and face the fact that fighting wars, providing infrastructure, maintaining a Superpower status ... these things don't happen on fairy dust. It takes revenue. TAX REVENUE to make First World civilization a reality.
What it takes is nongovernment spending. As you've noticed, (If you've paid attention) I never liked Ronald Reagan. Unlike you I'll be honest about the fact that he cut taxes and tax revenues rose. Money the government takes out of the economy caps the flow of water from the pipe. The private sector's velocity of money is at least twice that of the government, the $1 translates to $10 when the private sector handles it, $1 only gets to $5 when the government spends. If that number still holds. During the Obama years they were saying the government spending generated 17%, as in $1 only translated to $1.17. You can only hurt the economy by taxing it, you need to do so carefully.
I wonder what you'd really be willing to learn the real story of. Stories of when the government succeeded? But you're not interested in those, are you?
leisesturm said:
Conservatives to a one want the benefits of living in a First World superpower nation, but none of the (financial) responsibility.
Completely wrong. There is much complaint over taxes they want to pay for the schools, for the rich, the poor, the conservative, the nonconservative, to be educated but the government insists on redirecting the money to 'Pet Projects,' 'Virtue Signalling,' all sorts of wasteful things.
Meanwhile, one wacko liberal who has often been called both a neoliberal and neocon, accounted for more deficit spending than ALL presidents before him combined.
leisesturm said:
The first Conservatives were Slavers
This wold be a great moment for you-know-who to be screaming 'Post your PROOF!' That statement is just another of these lies you cook up.
Slaves are a fascinating subject. The great liberal model of the perfect society, Utopia, is a slave economy. Yet it is the left that wants Utopia. Because they assume they will be in one of the households that is ENTITLED to two slaves.
Meanwhile, the reason the Northern states were deciding to SELL OFF (NOT free) their slaves was because the slaves were a losing proposition. Why did slavery remain legal in New York Harbor? In how many slave states did the free black outnumber the enslaved? How was slavery the single worst financial burden of the 1830's? Why did the abolutionists remain silent when Federal and State governments STOPPED the owners from freeing their slaves at that time? (Well, maybe a few didn't. But it made some sense, anyway.) Oh, one timeless labor issue that applies to far more than slavery, how did labor saving technology increase the value of a slave instead of making them redundant?
If you would bother to learn, this is amazing stuff. But you just spout your fantasizes without a care for how far off the mark you are.
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JackFlorey said:
OK then to be more direct, sufficient government foresight and involvement to pay for our military, our research (the Manhattan Project was sorta important to our success) our schools, our roads and the rest of our infrastructure (again, the Internet turned out to be a pretty important boon to America.) The money to do that came from taxes.
I want to make some allowance for your need to be short, that's pretty good. But also too 20th century. What about when taxes WAS NOT what paid for it? There was a lot of foundation being laid to Make America Great. And the U.S. did not maintain much military until after WWII, it is theorized that Japan never would have tried it if the U.S. military had been properly funded before the war. And the U.S. didn't even want to pay for patrols that would have seen the Japanese fleet on it's way to Hawaii, while scapegoat Admiral Kimmel was warning what would happen if they didn't.
JackFlorey said:
Lots of people don't like taxes or government involvement due to their political alignment, and because they just don't want anyone to take their money or tell them what to do.
NO no no, purely partisan babble. "Their political alignment" includes people not paying any real tax and not wanting to but demanding free healthcare, better schools, unwilling to pay for any of it. I've posted before the numbers on the small percentage of the people who pay the LARGE percentage of the taxes. And do so willingly. Again, they complain about the waste, the poor people who don't get a chance to work and collect welfare so the money isn't there to fix the roads, improve the schools, (Which would employ people) etc. Let's not forget a big part of Bill Ciinton's success was RECOGNIZING that problem.
Your own people should be jumping on you for that one.
Let's see if flippy is right that he's making mistakes:
flippy said:
1: the manhattan project did nothing apart from ending the war sooner.
Mistake: The U.S. learned much about nuclear power. Not enough to avoid it, but ,but if you LIKE the stuff,thank the Manhattan project.
flippy said:
2: american schools . . (. . bulletproof vest!)
3: your roads . . . lots of holes in them.
4: 5:
So you're saying the roads ALSO need the bullet proof vest.
Mistake: His point is about wanting to TAKE MORE MONEY for those things.
flippy said:
6: america spends about HALF its taxes on the millitary once you include the VA, pensions and crap like the nuclear arsenal that is mantained by a different department to hide the actual cost of the millitary. if america would dial it back like 10% it could fund free universal healthcare for all americans for life, just like the people in the millitary already have.
Mistake: The total amount spent on these 80-plus federal welfare programs amounts to roughly $1.03 trillion. In 2017, they spent $673 billion.
Mistake: The $700 billion military spending is only 15% of the government budget. 10% of that wouldn't put much of a scratch in healthcare spending.
flippy said:
fun fact: the entire DOJ spends less then 5000 american roebels per person on healthcare for its entire millitary workforce per year.
Fun fact: An American roebel must be over 10 million dollars, because Flippy says less than 5,000 of them matches the $50 billion the military spends on healthcare.
flippy said:
7: the whole "no taxation without representation" you guys seem to love to say died with the lobbying disclosure act in 1995 wich effectivly made bribery legal.
Mistake: Well, the Big Lebowski would say, 'Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.' I'm not sure how that would prove Bill made some mistake.
flippy said:
fun fact: the 1995 act made america the only country in the known world that legalized bribery.
Mistake: You should have said 'Fun OPINION, man.' Right, Big Lebowski?
Alright, enough of setting the record straight. Time for the real discussion. If you want it in one sentence:
What made America Great was people who came here without looking to be taken care of. When the spoiled aristocrats were sitting around waiting to be waited on hand and foot, Captain Smith laid down the law.
The roads, the schools, for centuries there was no such thing as taxes paying for it, yet there they were. Militias, NOT really government organizations, were such a normal part of colony life they wind up mentioned in the Constitution.
I could go on and on about misconceptions and what really happened. What made America Great was people taking care of it. There was a time John F. Kennedy would never have had to say "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." The country wasn't doing anything for them, why ask? And, seriously, you know that's true.
So they say that one third of Africa wants to move to Europe. There are people from various parts of the world that express their sense of entitlement at the idea of moving to Europe. Why do they want to go there? To be taken care of. They want the free healthcare, etc. Europe is overrun with refugees, everything is breaking down, refugee gangs riot and gangrape, all these people insist they are entitled to take more and more. The governments are cutting all these services.
Meanwhile Europe never even recovered from World War II.
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Previously i'd get mad 
But, for fun i'd start to joke that the car is challenging me :lol: so i'm there laughing and having a good time. How a person feels is up to the person 99% of the time.
Don't know anything about the Spanish In. i did not even know that is was a religion.
