Worst foods declared by the World Health Org. pg 37

[flippy]

That stuff is a USA thing. In europe you can go to a bosch service center with your tesla for most of tour repairs. And any officially registerd bodyshop can fix tesla bodypanels. Pricing of offical tesla stealerships is also reasonable compared to other car companies. We also get more warrantry then US customers get so powertrain issues are not a problem for the first 8 years here.
And out of warranty repairs like i did on a powertrain are simple.

 

[John in CR]

The fuel cost saving is a myth.

This is unequivocally incorrect. The electric car is far cheaper to fuel for a given distance simply because the electric motor driving the car is so much more efficient than its ICE counterpart, and on top of that a big % of the kinetic energy thrown away as heat during braking is recovered with an ecar.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Average cost in usa 13.1 /kwh
huge variation state to state
mine is 10 cents FL varies by city
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46276
.
cheap used EV? my vote is for the chevy SPARK :thumb: here is 1 sold for $10990 2016 https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-Chevrolet-Spark-1LT-Hatchback-4D/203302762735?hash=item2f55c9f8ef:g:JucAAOSweANgJsjo
not the cheapest, but the Leaf has battery life problems.
Of course the CHEAPEST EV is an ebike :thumb: no insurance and lots of fresh air :lol: mine was $399 walmart and lasted 5 years. They have a new model that goes on sale xmas 399, reg 598. seems a good value but no disc brakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siouX_a2Rp4&ab_channel=CobraKyle

 

[Hillhater]

The fuel cost saving is a myth.

This is unequivocally incorrect. The electric car is far cheaper to fuel for a given distance simply because the electric motor driving the car is so much more efficient than its ICE counterpart, and on top of that a big % of the kinetic energy thrown away as heat during braking is recovered with an ecar.

So you didnt believe the example i posted ?.....real data using real costs.
Obviously the costs will vary depending on the cost of electricity, and the price of gasoline in different countries and states
But it doesnt matter how efficient an Electric drive train is, or how much regen is possible, if the energy from gasoline is so much cheaper to start with. ( a $3 gallon of gas has the equivalent to 36 kWh of power)
That is why i stuck with California as a classic real example.
You can pick a location with low electricity costs and high gas costs to make the EV look cheaper to run, but not many will be able to “choose” such a convenient place to live !
So, literally ...”Your Mileage may vary “ !
Where i am, i there have been detailed costings using the Hyundai Kona..(.available as ICE and EV)..
With our electricity prices and fuel costs, it works out that ..YES, the EV version is cheaper to run...
BUT... it would take over 400,000 kms to save the $20,000 extra that the EV costs !
And that would be about 10-15 years of typical motoring here .

 

[Hillhater]

Average cost in usa 13.1 /kwh
huge variation state to state

Yes, but why i stuck with Ca as being a “reference point”... is two fold..
1) ..it is the home state of Tesla, and EVs generally.
2).. California is also the USA “flagship” for “clean/green”. Electricity. Which is what this is all about , isnt it ?
And as such it highlights the cost impact of moving to high proportions of Wind and Solar power
So dont fool yourself..Buy an EV if you like them and have the money...
...But There is NO financial justification for buying an EV.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Was true in the past. BUT what happened is ICE priced itself recently too high. average new vehicle a tad under $40k so all of a sudden EV's are comparable, but as you say still not SAVING $$$$$. Who said EV's have to SAVE $? All they have to do is have a similar cost and last longer and ICE sales will drop. The FSD will allow mass rentals without driver error- huge income potential in a few years.
Battery cost keeps coming down; amazing what they can do when the handwriting is on the wall. (or feet to the fire) :lol:

 

[Hillhater]

Was true in the past. BUT what happened is ICE priced itself recently too high. average new vehicle a tad under $40k ....

Battery cost keeps coming down; amazing what they can do when the handwriting is on the wall. (or feet to the fire) :lol:

Average means nothing for car prices...there are a lot of expensive Porches, Mercedes, Ferraris etc etc to jack up that average.
But if you talk about the bulk of cars people actually buy...there are plenty of choice under $40k
Pick comparable size/model cars..
Eg..
Nissan Leaf ..$31,600
Nissan Versa.. $14,900..
Do i need to say anymore
Yes, i do......Batteries are NOT getting significantly cheaper. They still represent a $15-$20k oncost for an EV.over an equivalent ICE.
Why do you keep kidding yourself ?

 

[John in CR]

The fuel cost saving is a myth.

This is unequivocally incorrect. The electric car is far cheaper to fuel for a given distance simply because the electric motor driving the car is so much more efficient than its ICE counterpart, and on top of that a big % of the kinetic energy thrown away as heat during braking is recovered with an ecar.

So you didnt believe the example i posted ?.....real data using real costs.
Obviously the costs will vary depending on the cost of electricity, and the price of gasoline in different countries and states
But it doesnt matter how efficient an Electric drive train is, or how much regen is possible, if the energy from gasoline is so much cheaper to start with. ( a $3 gallon of gas has the equivalent to 36 kWh of power)
That is why i stuck with California as a classic real example.
You can pick a location with low electricity costs and high gas costs to make the EV look cheaper to run, but not many will be able to “choose” such a convenient place to live !
So, literally ...”Your Mileage may vary “ !
Where i am, i there have been detailed costings using the Hyundai Kona..(.available as ICE and EV)..
With our electricity prices and fuel costs, it works out that ..YES, the EV version is cheaper to run...
BUT... it would take over 400,000 kms to save the $20,000 extra that the EV costs !
And that would be about 10-15 years of typical motoring here .

Resist applying your usual stubbornness (or intentional disingenuousness?) to this topic by using unreal numbers and incomparable performance. Even before taking into account the huge subsidies by US taxpayers of crude oil prices, the price per equivalent energy content of fossil fuels is quite similar to electricity with a slight advantage to diesel due to about a 10% lower price than gas and 10% higher energy content per volume. There's no getting around the fact that electric drives are more than twice as efficient as modern diesel engines and almost 3 times as efficient as gas engines. Add in the advantage of regen braking and it's clearly the case that my original statement that EVs have a tremendous cost of use advantage for anyone who drives a lot. The big maintenance cost advantage tips the scales even further to EVs.

 

[Matt Gruber]

neither the leaf nor versa are popular cars.
SUV's are what sells the most. then trucks.
i spend a few minutes a day trying to keep up on what EV makers are doing- VW, GM significant battery cost reduction coming mainly imo to keep up and pass tesla 4680 that is not out yet. Next tesla is said to be as low as $25k Then there is Qunatumscape w/ solid state cells, i'm a skeptic, we will see - the near future is exciting- all current EV's will be obsolete in about 5 years. So all current cost calculations will not apply then. the handwriting is on the wall

 

[flippy]

Average means nothing for car prices...there are a lot of expensive Porches, Mercedes, Ferraris etc etc to jack up that average.
But if you talk about the bulk of cars people actually buy...there are plenty of choice under $40k
Pick comparable size/model cars..
Eg..
Nissan Leaf ..$31,600
Nissan Versa.. $14,900..
Do i need to say anymore
Yes, i do......Batteries are NOT getting significantly cheaper. They still represent a $15-$20k oncost for an EV.over an equivalent ICE.
Why do you keep kidding yourself ?

battery cost has dropped by huge amounts, but you would never notice with your flawed use of math and tunnel vision on specific subjects that go into this.

"we" might be kidding ourselfs but in the meantime you might be better off informing yourself. if your "math" was correct then a company like tesla would not exist and old companies like nissan, PSA, VAG and even frocking ferrari is spending billions in trying to keep up with that tesla is currently doing as a a big ass saloon car that costs under 100k can utterly destroy a half a million dollars worth of italian craftsmaship off the line. but considering tesla are selling cars as fast as they can make them (unlike most other car makers that cant even sell the crappy EV's they do make) and have sold 1.5 million cars so far (most of them in the past 3 years) you are sadly and simply just comically uninformed on how car economics work, especially in business economics.

even the USPS figured out the math with their new fleet of Ev's to replace their crappy old vans. as is UPS and friends that alreayd orderd hundreds of tesla semi's for do their runs between distribution centers. you really think they will choose the more expensive option if they had the choice?

as i stated before, i have done fleet managment and shown you how shitty your math and reasoning already was. dial back your comments and go back to the basics and learn the math/economics that goes into this subject.

your inabillty to understand a topic is not a valid argument against it.

 

[Hillhater]

.....There's no getting around the fact that electric drives are more than twice as efficient as modern diesel engines and almost 3 times as efficient as gas engines. Add in the advantage of regen braking and it's clearly the case that my original statement that EVs have a tremendous cost of use advantage for anyone who drives a lot. The big maintenance cost advantage tips the scales even further to EVs.

John.. instead of repeating your “statements” ( beliefs ?)... why dont you post some data and numbers that demonstrate these “Tremendous cost “ advantages.
I have posted several to prove that the cost differences take a long time to recover the on cost of the electric drive train.
..and careful where you go. With that “maintenance” argument also.....another popular internet Myth.!
There is NO financial justification to own an EV !

 

[Hillhater]

neither the leaf nor versa are popular cars.
SUV's are what sells the most. then trucks.
i spend a few minutes a day trying to keep up on what EV makers are doing- VW, GM significant battery cost reduction coming mainly imo to keep up and pass tesla 4680 that is not out yet. Next tesla is said to be as low as $25k Then there is Qunatumscape w/ solid state cells, i'm a skeptic, we will see - the near future is exciting- all current EV's will be obsolete in about 5 years. So all current cost calculations will not apply then. the handwriting is on the wall

They were examples only for EV cost comparison...not because of their popularity..BUT
The LEAF is one of the most popular EVs... because of its cost .
The versa is the Equivalent ICE.. chosen to demonstrate the additional cost of Electric drive train on similar cars.
Again , instead of repeating popular statements , please post some real data to show how much EV batteries have reduced in cost over the last 5-10 years. ?
Unfortunately, we are not living in the future yet,..so we have to deal with todays reality !

 

[Hillhater]

battery cost has dropped by huge amounts,

OK ,..so show me....Post some real data of actual EV battery cost reductions. ( not Musk’s utterings)

...."we" might be kidding ourselfs but in the meantime you might be better off informing yourself. if your "math" was correct then a company like tesla would not exist and old companies like nissan, PSA, VAG and even frocking ferrari is spending billions in trying to keep up with that tesla is currently doing as a a big ass saloon car that costs under 100k can utterly destroy a half a million dollars worth of italian craftsmaship off the line. ....

My maths is simplistic, but accurate enough to show the situation for norrmal private owners
Tesla has only survived due to the. “CARBON CREDITS” that is sells to the other ICE makers and fossil industries.
So ironically, without ICEs , Tesla would have gone under years ago.
That artificial Carbon pricing handicap is the prime motivation for the ICE industry moving to EVs.. together with other political initives like the banning of ICE sales within 15 yrs !

as i stated before, i have done fleet managment and shown you how shitty your math and reasoning already was...

[/quote]
And as i have said before .. your local “Corporate Fleet” costings are not representitive of mainstream public owners experience in the wider world.

 

[Hillhater]

Flippy, , John..
..here are some more figures from an independent European source..

Driving 100 km on diesel costs € 5.63 at a liter price of € 1.25

Driving 100 km on electricity costs € 5.25 with a kWh price of € 0.35

Source: EV Yearbook 2021

But,.. evem my poor maths shows that the EV consumption used is 150Wh/km....which is less the the lowest rated EV consumption. (Hyundai Ionic) ???..
.. a Tesla S wouuld be well over 200Wh/km , or €7.0 for that 100km !
I am not seeing these “Huge” savings on running costs ?

 

[flippy]

Tesla has only survived due to the. “CARBON CREDITS” that is sells to the other ICE makers and fossil industries.

shit like this is why i cant take you seriously. tesla was sitting on a big pile of credits that they sold because its useless to them.

tesla dont make fossil cars to use those credits on you dumb shit.

think before you bring up bullshit arguments like this. understand and concede that you have no clue how business economics work.

ps: diesel is 1.50 euro here. and a tesla model S size diesel car does NOT run 1:25 on diesel in real life. a bmw 5 diesel does 20km/L if you are doing motorways all the time. and that ignores the 180 euro road tax each month that a EV does not have to pay. so a model S (that does around 200Wh/km) can do 4500km just on what you would pay on road tax with a diesel -EACH MONTH-. so even if you drive a S like a lunatic with 300+Wh/km of consumption you can still rack up 40.000km each year just on what you would spend on a bmw 5 series diesel on road tax (and a couple sets of new tires probably.)

go back to your little corner and learn some real matz and meanwhile stop bothering the adults.

 

[nicobie]

Hey flippy, no more calling people dumb shits.

Even if you're right, watch the name calling. After all, there are better ways of insulting people.

 

[Hillhater]

Tesla has only survived due to the. “CARBON CREDITS” that is sells to the other ICE makers and fossil industries.

shit like this is why i cant take you seriously. tesla was sitting on a big pile of credits that they sold because its useless to them.

tesla dont make fossil cars to use those credits on you dumb shit.

Not too hot on business financials , are you ?
Carbon credits are not useless, ..they are VERY VALUABLE !
Check Teslas financial reports , and see how much income the recieved fron SELLING CARBON CREDITS !

Based on the 2020 annual report, Tesla generated sales that totaled as much as $1.58 billion, $594 million and $419 million for the years ended on December 2020, 2019 and 2018 respectively from selling regulatory credits alone.
That’s quite a lot of money from a “product” literally with zero cost to produce

..

..Tesla announces first EVER annual profit with earnings of $721 million in 2020 -....
..Once again the company needed regulatory credits purchased by other automakers in order to make a profit. Without $1.58 billion in credits for the year, Tesla would have lost money. Other automakers buy the credits when they can't meet emissions and fuel economy standards.....

https://stockdividendscreener.com/auto-manufacturers/teslas-regulatory-credits-revenue/

ps: diesel is 1.50 euro here. and a tesla model S size diesel car does NOT run 1:25 on diesel in real life. a bmw 5 diesel does 20km/L if you are doing motorways all the time. and that ignores the 180 euro road tax each month that a EV does not have to pay. so a model S (that does around 200Wh/km) can do 4500km just on what you would pay on road tax with a diesel -EACH MONTH-. so even if you drive a S like a lunatic with 300+Wh/km of consumption you can still rack up 40.000km each year just on what you would spend on a bmw 5 series diesel on road tax (and a couple sets of new tires probably.).

OK, so using your figures..
5 l/100km diesel @ €1.50..= €7.50 per 100km
TMS @ 300W/km and €0.36/kWh = €10.80 per 100km ?

so, at that rate the BMW 5 series is SAVING 3.30 every 100km, and can save that 180/month if they drive more than 5,600km/month. ! :lol: :lol:
I dont know the exact prices of either the Tesla or the BMW in NL, but im sure its like most other countries with a $20k+ premium on the EV !
but again, ..not every EV owner can live in the NL where EVs are treated a God mobiles with subsidies , Tax incentives, etc.

 

[Dauntless]

Tesla has only survived due to the. “CARBON CREDITS” that is sells to the other ICE makers and fossil industries.

shit like this is why i cant take you seriously. tesla was sitting on a big pile of credits that they sold because its useless to them.

tesla dont make fossil cars to use those credits on you dumb shit.

Yeah, Elon isn't a dumbshit sitting on carbon credits he could be selling and keeping his company in business. Or keeping it surviving, I should say.

 

[Matt Gruber]

How do i define success- in 1 word? Tesla
Any public co. has a responsibility to make money for its' owners. $5k in TSLA 10 years ago is now worth over 100K Truly astonishing. Too bad i didn't catch on and buy some stock. My mistake? i was looking at the BIG losses and could not see how tsla would ever make money. I failed to account for the "change the world" philosophy of shareholders I'm sure tsla is ahead 1-2 BILLION on the bitcoin- another "change the world" crazy idea Don't forget Elon sold very successful Paypal which now has 336 million customers. He has the track record of the century. success = Elon Musk
Skip to page 35 for replies to this corrected post

 

[flippy]

Not too hot on business financials , are you ?

more then you apparently. carbon credits are useless to TESLA. tesla does not sell any fossil cars to use the credits they get from SELLING their EV. so yes, tesla used these credits to get cash flow and they get these by actually SELLING cars. if you have a problem with how these things work and how companies can take adantage of this: complain to your goverment.
so far tesla is the only company that is able to use the credit sceme this way because they are the only company that only make EV's. that is why other car makers HAD to buy them for obscene amounts as their cars are still polluting too much.

That’s quite a lot of money from a “product” literally with zero cost to produce

they still need to sell the cars to get the credits in the first place.

Tesla would have lost money.

so what? they are spending every dime they earn into factories to boost production. in case you have not noticed: tesla is limited by produtction, not demand. so having to spend lots of money into factories to make higher profits when you have said factory is business 101.

OK, so using your figures..
5 l/100km diesel @ €1.50..= €7.50 per 100km
TMS @ 300W/km and €0.36/kWh = €10.80 per 100km ?
so, at that rate the BMW 5 series is SAVING 3.30 every 100km, and can save that 180/month if they drive more than 5,600km/month. ! :lol: :lol:

average S consumption is 220Wh/km. getting 300 is basically only possible if you break every speeding law in existance. not to mention you need to swap tires every 3 months. :lol:
still, your math is still wrong, a Kwh costs 20~22 cents here before taking out the 7 cents of taxes as you can as a buisness. and you ignored the diesel road tax -again-.

I dont know the exact prices of either the Tesla or the BMW in NL, but im sure its like most other countries with a $20k+ premium on the EV !
but again, ..not every EV owner can live in the NL where EVs are treated a God mobiles with subsidies , Tax incentives, etc.

its not about the showroom sticker price, as i have said many times before. if you buy a car for 80k and sell it after 2 years for 40k you are out 40k. if you sell a 120k car and sell it for 80k after 2 years you are still out 40k. so the cars actual cost is exactly the same. and then you still need to add what driving that car has earned you versus not having that car, same applies for trucks or vans or forklifts or servers. and for a business this number is the only thing that matters. -actual cost-. and in the meantime you had more loans wich you can use to reduce your actually paid taxes even more. to buying expensive cars as actually good if you have lots of crap like wages that need to be taxed and you can reduce that. and this is not a EU thing, america is WAY worse in that regard. the tax system in america is even better for these kinds of accounting "hacks".

basic math yo. learn that shit.

 

[Hillhater]

Don't forget Elon invented Paypal ..

..Another “woke” Myth !....
Sorry to interrupt your Hero worship, but Musk did not invent PayPal,...nor did he “invent” Tesla.
He came in late on both of those shows !

 

[Matt Gruber]

Don't forget Elon invented Paypal ..

..Another “woke” Myth !....
Sorry to interrupt your Hero worship, but Musk did not invent PayPal,...nor did he “invent” Tesla.
He came in late on both of those shows !

So are you saying you made more money? what business did you invent? :lol:
You are looking less informed with every post rather more mis-informed. sorry to interrupt your path to failure :lol: can't do math, can't look ahead, can't recognize success doomed to fail 8) :lol:

 

[markz]

Max Levchin and Peter Thiel had created the startup Confinity, which developed an online payment system called PayPal, according to Fast Company. In March 2000, Confinity merged with Musk’s X.com and the execs later renamed the company PayPal.

“I put $100 million in SpaceX, $70 million in Tesla, and $10 million in Solar City. I had to borrow money for rent.”

 

[Matt Gruber]

I never claimed to be an expert on the ppal details. i read somewhere that Musk got a huge payout when papal was sold. i've edited my post to correct. my point remains intact. i was NOT paying close attention to Musk until 2020. if i was i might of made $$$$$$$$$$$$$ :lol:

 

[markz]

I did not know either, but I was intrigued so I did an online search which came up about 5th on the list.

Ah, another google came up with Telsa info
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/03/business/tesla-history-timeline/index.html

July 1 2003 - Tesla is founded by Martin Eberhard (pictured above) and Marc Tarpenning. The engineers become CEO and CFO, respectively. Eberhard and Tarpenning were inspired to create the company after General Motors ended its EV1 program and destroyed the electric cars. They named their company after famed inventor Nikola Tesla, a pioneer in electricity.

2004 - Elon Musk gets in the mix. The entrepreneur who made a fortune at PayPal, helps lead the Series A funding round for Tesla and invests $6.35 million of his own money. He becomes chairman of the board following that investment.

2005
Tesla signs a contract with Lotus Cars, a British company that makes sports and race cars. Lotus provided the chassis and body design of Tesla's first vehicle, The Roadster.

Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page invest in the company during its Series B round of funding, which is led by Musk.

Musk publishes his “secret” plan for the company. “Build sports car. Use that money to build an affordable car. Use that money to build an even more affordable car. While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options.”

I never claimed to be an expert on the ppal details. i read somewhere that Musk got a huge payout when papal was sold. i've edited my post to correct. my point remains intact. i was NOT paying close attention to Musk until 2020. if i was i might of made $$$$$$$$$$$$$ :lol: