Yamaha/Bosch battery 6x more expensive than Tesla - Why?

[pucak92]

I saw recently post about Musk offering power solutions to Australia, saying 250 dollars per kWh

So thats 125 dollars per 500Wh

But 500Wh Yamaha battery costs 700 euro, that is 742 dollars and that is about 6x more expensive !!!!!!

WHY? Why is this small ebike battery without supercharging, watercooling, more expensive ?

Where is the problem?I am sure 40 cells that they put there cost them 100 euro, thats how much would cost Panasonic cells 18650 PF.

Can I not somehow connect other Pannasonic Battery pack to my Yamaha ebike?

This is the only reason i regret purchasing my Yamaha ebike, its great, it climbs every hill, but the battery capacity is low, charging is slow, 3,5hours....
I am considering buying another battery for long trips, but hey, for the 700 euro ?!

400Wh option i found for 480 euro .....thats still not a big win at all!

Please help, suggestions please, i am planning long trips arround Europe, and after going Asia on my ebike! Hopefully ill get chargers regularly on my way

 

[Hillhater]

Give Musk a call...see if he will do you a deal .
....but you may have to by 200-300MWh of cells to get that price

With the Yamaha pack, you are paying for design, testing, assembly, packing, warranty, ...and a name !
You are gambling if you buy "no name" Li battery packs

 

[Ianhill]

I've heard from the grape vine there's advanced bms on the pack of more modern 2016 + models to try stop someone re celling the pack, so if a cell dies and someone attempts a fix it still would not work.
There has to be a way around it but short of replacing the cells in a working pack tricking the bms voltages it's going to need expertise and I imagine anyone offering these services are breaking the law in someway and i agree only trained authorised dealers should be allowed to tamper inside the packs, I wouldn't want packs of poor quality circling the market and ending up between my nuts.

 

[Recumbent Bicycle Source]

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

 

[spinningmagnets]

Products are sold at the prices that the market will bear. If a company figures out a way to make solar panels for half the cost, they don't sell them for half the cost...they might sell them for 10% less, just to develop sales. Until they get some competition, they will post kettle the other 40% in production savings...

 

[Punx0r]

Production volume

 

[competitions]

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

If you want to campaign against subsidies, it would make sense to target all subsidies or at least the corporations that are getting away with the lion’s share of them and contrary to what has long been reported, Tesla is actually receiving only a small fraction of what the Big Three automakers and oil companies are receiving.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/25/tesla-subsidies-big-three-oil-industry/

 

[flat tire]

Considering the context I think he's suggesting that might be why they cost less

 

[Chalo]

"With petroleum selling for less than fifty bucks per barrel, why do I have to pay more than eight dollars for a single quart of mineral spirits at the hardware store?"

That's how the OP's question sounds to me.

 

[Ianhill]

Im getting around ×2 the price per kwh.

Powerwall 2 in the UK = £7400 estimated fitting costs could rise so for a 14kw powerwall fitted it's around £530 per kwh to the consumer.

Bosch battery = £600-£700 depending on retailer. Per 500wh so it's around £1200-1400 per kwh.

It shows how much tesla have drove the price down on 18650's it's going to be hard to compete with them if you don't manufacturer cells on such quantities and no one makes cars or powerwalls and produce all the parts including the cells, it will drive the price low as possible and soon they could have the battery market on lock down.

It also shows that bosch make money on the initial sale of the bike so they make spares such a price it's more attractive to upgrade to a new model with higher spec, Apple use this with unbelievable success.

One things for sure battery's are going under a developmental change that will be historical who ever gets this right will be sat in the drivers seat for a while so there's still a long slippery stretch ahead of Elon but he has had the funding and scientific backing so far to create a stir and it doesn't look like he is going any where yet but Mars so I imagine he will keep his plans in a chest on the moon oneday so no one can spy on him.

£530 per kwh still seems high considering the scale the powerwall is being built at, It could be done Diy with graphene prismatics for £330 per kwh with out any inverters etc so the cost savings are small for a full size home but if one wanted 1 or 2kw for a caravan or a shed then diy still makes sence.

 

[MadRhino]

The big players who are developing a niche in high end ebikes, have a lot to win in making their system and batteries expansive and proprietary. Their goal is: complicated to repair, complicated to replace with a DIY, complicated to upgrade. They want you to be tied to their products and spare parts and eventually, tied to their dealers for service. Their clients don't see that when they buy. They realize the trap they got in, only after things start going wrong.

 

[TheBeastie]

I saw recently post about Musk offering power solutions to Australia, saying 250 dollars per kWh

So thats 125 dollars per 500Wh

But 500Wh Yamaha battery costs 700 euro, that is 742 dollars and that is about 6x more expensive !!!!!!
WHY? Why is this small ebike battery without supercharging, watercooling, more expensive ?

Tesla do everything at a loss, in fact they are somewhat out of money and needed to do a $1billion dollar capital raise to keep going just a few days ago, capital raising means creating new shares for stock market folks to buy and thus diluting the value of existing shares.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-15/musk-s-tesla-plans-up-to-1-15-billion-capital-raise-to-cut-risk
So Tesla also sell their batteries at a loss. It might sound weird but despite the huge amount of support via governments that green companies get via tariffs for green energy etc most go belly up, Tesla has Musk so despite being sued by some investors Musk was able to merge SolarCity into Tesla.
Some of the greatest achievements that renewable energy news websites/articles point to as marvels of how viable renewable energy is will have bankrupt companies behind them like SunEdison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunEdison#Bankruptcy

Next time you see some expert in renewables say how batteries are cheaper than oil etc think about the fact there is a company behind it going broke/using shareholders money to make it happen. Then think about the fact you now know more than twice as much as that renewables expert about how it really all works and how viable it might be in the future.

 

[Punx0r]

Next time you see some expert in renewables say how batteries are cheaper than oil etc think about the fact there is a company behind it going broke/using shareholders money to make it happen. Then think about the fact you now know more than twice as much as that renewables expert about how it really all works and how viable it might be in the future.

But investors in fossil fuel and ICE car industries get guaranteed returns and ever-increasing share values? And those industries don't receive direct or indirect government subsidies?

 

[Recumbent Bicycle Source]

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

If you want to campaign against subsidies, it would make sense to target all subsidies or at least the corporations that are getting away with the lion’s share of them and contrary to what has long been reported, Tesla is actually receiving only a small fraction of what the Big Three automakers and oil companies are receiving.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/25/tesla-subsidies-big-three-oil-industry/

Not relevant to the CONTEXT of the Question posed.

Asked why the Battery cost more than Tesla. Answer: Tesla is subsidized. END. Not a political discussion or question. Just Economics.

 

[Chalo]

Asked why the Battery cost more than Tesla. Answer: Tesla is subsidized.

That's not why. It wouldn't matter how much Tesla is subsidized; if they thought they could achieve their business goals while charging more for their product and taking more profit, they'd do it.

There are lots of reasons (scale, packaging, shipping, electronics, distributor and retailer markups, expectations of establishing market share, etc.) that your consumer product battery costs more per kWh than massive infrastructure installations. But you want to believe it comes down only to subsidies?

 

[Sunder]

if they thought they could achieve their business goals while charging more for their product and taking more profit, they'd do it.

There are lots of reasons (scale, packaging, shipping, electronics, distributor and retailer markups, expectations of establishing market share, etc.) that your consumer product battery costs more per kWh than massive infrastructure installations. But you want to believe it comes down only to subsidies?

What you say is true. Expecting small consumer anythings to be as cheap as the bulk equivalent is foolish.

But I thought Musk's stated business goals was to accelerate the uptake of environmentally friendly battery based products. To do that, he needed to do things - overcome the misconception that electric cars need the same range as ICE cars - That costs, and nobody will pay the true cost and markup of a car if he passed on the cost. As well as implemented super-charging networks - and doesn't even charge to use them - that's obviously costing him as well.

So his business goals is explicitly to NOT take more profit, because it's in direct opposition to what he wants to achieve. The only odd thing about that, is that other shareholders are okay with that. Why not call them supporters/donors instead?

 

[Chalo]

I think you're right that Musk and Tesla are cutting/sacrificing profits for the sake of stimulating adoption of their products and establishing an infrastructure base for them.

But at the same time, I'm sure if they thought they could accomplish that and still make a fat margin on top of it, they would. They're not Communists.

 

[MadRhino]

Killing the competition with quality at lower price, establish a near monopole with hype, then progressively raise the price and collect the benefits of the strategy. Nothing new, but still works.

 

[Cephalotus]

Killing the competition with quality at lower price, establish a near monopole with hype, then progressively raise the price and collect the benefits of the strategy. Nothing new, but still works.

Tesla is far away from a monopole in battery storage systems.

http://www.solarserver.com/solar-magazine/solar-news/current/2016/kw43/new-analysis-german-battery-energy-storage-companies-leading-in-market-shares.html

 

[spinningmagnets]

I think scale plays the biggest part in the price-per disparity. If you think ebike batteries are overpriced compared to Tesla, scale out cell phone batteries to 48V / 15-Ah...

 

[liveforphysics]

Killing the competition with quality at lower price, establish a near monopole with hype, then progressively raise the price and collect the benefits of the strategy. Nothing new, but still works.

Its only hype until you drive one. Then its forever paradigm shifting, and has made a mark on the world that is/has changed the entire industry to recognize EVs are the future.

Due to being the first EV maker to go vertical integration to make virtually every part of the car in-house, and control their own cell mfg, and have an extremely useful supercharger network installed, they handily leap-frogged all other vehicle OEMs in positioning themselves to remain relevant through at least the next few years which will include the collapse and fall of the poor bastards stuck trying to cell ICE cars to a population thats moved on.

Its funny to me to see the fools or con-men who write financial articles about Tesla having an unstable future, while ironically its the single automotive company positioned to be thriving still into the future. If they gave useful fiscal advise, it would let people know every company currently surviving through ICE based cars is ensured to die rapidly if they cant rapidly evolve to EVs.

 

[MadRhino]

Agreed. Tesla did establish itself as the major player in the Electric car industry. It is playing the same marketting game as Apple did, and soon they will have a near monopole because the users will want their product atop of any other. People waiting in line to order their new car to come, had already happened. Their next step is to be ahead in the battery tech also.

The EV revolution does need big players who can create the hype, not only making it clever and ethic to have an electric vehicle, but making it fashion to a whole generation of users coming.