Yet another Lebowski + Honda IMA inverter & step-by-step

kiwifiat · Dec 26, 2023

beggernator said:
@kiwifiat Sorry if this a question with an obvious answer.
In this thread I see a newer version of the Lebowski board you designed that looks to be designed to drop directly onto the standoffs of the IMA inverter.
looking through other threads the best I have been able to find is the small Bobc board style. Not the one like is used in this thread.

The board has support for the resolver fitted to the HSG, just connect and tune. The board gerbers haven't been released yet as there is a revision in the works that makes connecting to the outside world less of a hassle. The current design is meant to connect to the existing oem 20 pin socket, seemed like a good idea at the time, but it is ridiculously time consuming.

kiwifiat · Dec 26, 2023

mxlemming said:
Makes me think it's some fundamental property of motors rather than an actual controller issue and that the problem is just masked rather than fixed by "tuning". Possibly at the expense of performance in each region.

I wonder if @Lebowski has any insight into this.

IMO the issue is that HALL sensors are crap, especially when they are reliant on magnetic fields and they are placed in a lightning storm of magnetic fields that vary with phase current. The best solution was that proposed and solved by ES member Bertie using optical sensors that are impervious to changes in magnetic fields. That said I have had zero issues with the Lebowski controller with transition from sensored to sensorless operation on my old scooter that was fitted with a gen1 QS273 motor and HALL sensors. Those that I am aware of who were having transition problems traced the issues to sub-optimal alignment of the magnet on their RLS encoder fitted motors.

Lebowski · Dec 27, 2023

Hall sensors are indeed finecky… the best is when they are external to the motor and do NOT see any magnetic field from the coils. This is the case I think I used for my controller. The case where the sensors see the field of the coils is fundamentally different…

It would cool to take the time to make a useable-for-everyone version of the ‘sensorless from standstill’ algorithm as this is far superior. Who knows, hopefully I have time to get back into this in the near future.

mxlemming · Dec 27, 2023

Lebowski said:
Hall sensors are indeed finecky… the best is when they are external to the motor and do NOT see any magnetic field from the coils. This is the case I think I used for my controller. The case where the sensors see the field of the coils is fundamentally different…

It would cool to take the time to make a useable-for-everyone version of the ‘sensorless from standstill’ algorithm as this is far superior. Who knows, hopefully I have time to get back into this in the near future.

Does your sensorless from standstill work for all motors? Or does it require a degree of salience?

I read and understood the paper (I think), but noted that you have orders of magnitude more sensitivity in your hardware than normal FOC controllers due to the high pas filtering opamps. In my world, I created SFS that works with many motors but relies on running an angle error correction based on the Id Iq currents induced by VdVq injection. It is very very good for some motors and totally hopeless with others.

Lebowski · Dec 27, 2023

It requires some small degree of saliency cause thats what the principle is based on. I added the opamps to increase sensitivity (amplification) but also the be able to detect saliency while applying large torque producing phase currents (filtering).

You can do without the opamps when you have audio quality AD converters, but I want to use a microcontroller with the ADC’s inside. Also then you need lots more processing power to do all the filtering in the digital domain… and this is all assuming there’s no harmful aliasing.

beggernator · Dec 28, 2023

kiwifiat said:
The board has support for the resolver fitted to the HSG, just connect and tune. The board gerbers haven't been released yet as there is a revision in the works that makes connecting to the outside world less of a hassle. The current design is meant to connect to the existing oem 20 pin socket, seemed like a good idea at the time, but it is ridiculously time consuming.

Awsome news.

Is there any sort of expected ETA on the revision?
I understand it's a hobby project you probably work on as and when in free time so no rush. Just would be nice to know if I'm shelving it temporarily for a few months or going full cold storage for year +.

As a thought in the connector location, you could place a circular mill spec style connector on ether the back or the side of the case. Some difficulty with removing the lid I suppose. Other option is just cutting the OEM connector off the board and mounting a new connector in its place. Side mount bolts through the PCB provided the traces under it are non essential. Still a lot of messing around but less then re useing the OEM one.

I spose if the new board revision has THT wire breakout points and a provision for an on board connector that gives the most options for least effort.

Thanks again to everyone's combined effort here. It's great to see what a community can produce when It works together.

kiwifiat · Dec 29, 2023

I will be using a 23 pin Ampseal header. Early April as a wild guess for an ETA. I still have one populated V1 board available from the initial run of ten, pm if you are interested.

Cutting the oem socket out is painful as it is screwed in from below the PCB with no access to the screw heads. I cut one out with a dremel and it created a hell of a mess.

mxlemming · Dec 29, 2023

Lebowski said:
It requires some small degree of saliency cause thats what the principle is based on. I added the opamps to increase sensitivity (amplification) but also the be able to detect saliency while applying large torque producing phase currents (filtering).

You can do without the opamps when you have audio quality AD converters, but I want to use a microcontroller with the ADC’s inside. Also then you need lots more processing power to do all the filtering in the digital domain… and this is all assuming there’s no harmful aliasing.

I got it working with pretty big phase current (160A). Had about 2/3 my weight on the bike saddle. I'm 90kg. Unfortunately it's only silent because I'm running 35khz pwm so half that from positive and negative injection is 17.5kHz

Something worth noting is that if you construct your injection and reading right you find that higher current stabilises the lock in, whereas other combinations are unstable with higher current.

Injecting equally in d and q axis and choosing the polarity of the q to be counter to the current is stable. If q injection is towards the current, then higher q current causes q saturation which ultimately removes the apparent saliency.

Iirc from your paper your reconstructing an entire circle from the injection, and you can see the saliency from the ovalness (very crudely transcribed). As you apply more and more torque, the circle gets less pointy on the high current q axis side. The saturation shift with current enables the 180 degree disambiguation... Effectively I just chose a single point on that circle that seems relatively unaffected by current and track that. Maybe that works well on your opamp free hardware?

Lebowski · Dec 30, 2023

For my testing I used a drill

The idea was to be able to run the big screw fully into and out of the block of wood, sensorless and from standstill. So even stopping for the last cm, and then re-starting from sensorless. The motor was pretty small

I ran it at 50A phase current. It worked flawlessly. Never tried it on a bike as here the law is too strict now for home brew.

From your short description I don’t get what you’re trying to do…

Pyclanmot · Sep 21, 2024

marcexec said:
Controller is re-installed on the bike after sealing and additional connectors (see 7).
I did an extended test run (emulated commute on Sunday evening, up to 90km/h and 20°C->~40°C in the uphill leg) and deemed it safe to commute for real today. See my build thread as well.
View attachment 337049 View attachment 337052
However I'm still struggling with the launch performance. Once it reaches 15 km/h and FOC kicks in it's smooth and seems to deliver full power up to the configured limits.

Post initial configuration with Roger the journey was as follows:

transition to FOC was rough & unreliable at 1500 eRPM

dropped phase current from 300 to 150A, re-autocompleted at 200A (for higher error currents) and items further down then just reduce phase for this tweak. Note battery current is limited at 150A due to fuse and contactor ratings.

consecutitvely raised i\R from 53 to 90 mOhm, which got me going

I have it now at 175A and 100 mOhm, which is still reliable:

Code:

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Since then I tried to tweak the transition:

D\f (erpm dr2 jump to dr3) from 1000 to 750, which is too low even on N\h (minimum # of cycles going from drive 2 to 3 = 5000), 900 is OK even on 2000 cycles.

190A phase is too much for a neat transition even at D\f of 5000 (still based on 200A)

G\g (phase control loop, drive 2, 3rd order) autocompletes to 0.03 but as per Roger's recommendation is 0.3, tried doubling it to .6 to see if I get better acceleration under Drive_2 (Halls), but did not notice a difference, so reverted

G\n (immediate motor phase step) autocompletes to 64 and was at 16 per Roger's recommendation (for hub motors), tried 8 (more "jumpy") and now 24, which causes a bit of humming but feels more responsive. This value seems to affect both Drive_2 and Drive_3 (FOC)

TBH, I don't have a full understanding of the parameters but I can change a value at a time. I'm especially wary of increasing the error currents (I only autocompleted based on 200A instead of Roger's recommendation of 300A) until I'm a little more confident.
I might try calibration based on 250A next and a phase current of 190-200A.
Edit: tried the 250A, autocomplete then 190A phase current settings this morning. Worked OK, but the transition has become more "rough" and it conked out once (only) on an incline.

Further tuning of my setup starts on this post in my build threa Did you manage to implement the electric motorcycle project?

marcexec · Sep 24, 2024

I assume "Did you manage to implement the electric motorcycle project?" was the actual question and the answer is yes

.
Have a look at the thread in my signature.

The latest settings are:

Code:

version:2B0_
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0x3C56    0x3F17    0x41CE    0x447A    0x471C    0x49B4    0x4C3F    0x4EBF
0x5133    0x539B    0x55F5    0x5842    *

Yet another Lebowski + Honda IMA inverter & step-by-step

kiwifiat

100 W

kiwifiat

100 W

Lebowski

10 MW

mxlemming

100 kW

Lebowski

10 MW

beggernator

1 µW

kiwifiat

100 W

mxlemming

100 kW

Lebowski

10 MW

Pyclanmot

1 mW

marcexec

1 kW

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