Yet another "please help me with my first build"

[AF7JA]

I have been here for quite a while; but this is my first build. Like may others I am looking for a recommended parts list.

Desired max speed on level ground. 17-20mph
Desired max range at what cruising speed. Ok, my desire is for infinite; forgoing that, 10mi @ 20mph, 20mi @ 17mph. Yes, I would like more, that is a minimum
Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert. 700c (at some point I want to switch to 650. The bike is too big for me; but that will be later)
Brake type of motor wheel. Front Disc. (In the near future I want to switch to hydraulic discs; but they are mechanical right now.)
Rider weight. 210Lb (I got rid of my car over 8 years ago and have used a bicycle as primary transportation since then. I don't expect this to change much)
Terrain. Exp: mostly flat (this is Kansas)

I want a geared front hub for lighter weight and ease of pedaling.

If there is a chance of mid drive working with this bike I am interested; otherwise, front hub. I like the belt drive and NuVinci. I know that if I go with the mid drive I would also need a part to put the front pulley on it from california e-bikes. However, I suspect that it is not compatible with the Eccentric Bottom bracket.

My primary concern is to take the edge off while riding on windy days. I want to keep this below about $1000. I am, sort of, looking at this kit:http://www.greenbikekit.com/electri...ttery-with-built-in-sine-wave-controller.html and this one https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/576-q100-36v350w-front-e-bike-whole-kit-ebike-kit.html.

I really don't see much difference between them. As I see it, I will also need:
A torque arm (they seem to have that on their site)
A spacer for the disc (where should I get that?)
The in-line brake switches (they seem to have that on their site)
Anything else?

Here is what I have. Due to space concerns, I don't want to get another bike. I have a trike in the basement that I barely use because it is such an ordeal to get out. know I am going to lose the dyno-hub. That is no great loss; I am not very impressed by it anyways.

 

[spinningmagnets]

What part of Kansas?

Because of the flat terrain and modest speeds you would be happy with, I would recommend a front geared hubmotor. The Q100H at 48V is popular right now for a user profile like this...

 

[AF7JA]

SouthWest KS (Liberal)

From what I have read here I agree, I want a front geared motor. I also agree that the Q100 looks ideal. The problem is finding someone what carries it, and under $1k. A lot of people probably carry it; however, due to the fixation with renaming things to make it seem like an "exclusive" product I cannot find a complete kit that uses one (other than Grin; and frankly, theirs is too expensive).

 

[spinningmagnets]

Even if you think one torque arm will be enough, I highly recommend using two, since it's for the front wheel. Best of luck on where ever you order from...

 

[slowhands]

I am not sure that the Green Bike 100 motor is the same as the Q100H. I thought the H version was exclusive to BMS Battery. The story is they used stronger neodymium magnets in the H version and it is about 30% higher in torque than the old Q100 at any power level. You want that. I'd just get the motor and controller from BMS battery and put it on your own wheel. You pay a huge amount to ship the wheel. Better to build your own or even have your local bike shop do it at known quality. Anyway, best of luck on your build.

 

[AF7JA]

At this point I am waiting to hear back from BMS battery. If it weren't for the wind where I am working I wouldn't be considering this; but I am about to ride out to the store in 20+ mph winds. I was looking at a used car and the thought hit me that I had an e-bike in China, I should just ride one here.

 

[2old]

Might want to look at Dillenger; front kit that is very user friendly to mount, good CS and a tech representative in MI for < $700.

 

[d8veh]

I'd keep away from that BMSB kit. There's lots of questions about whether the Q100 works with yhat ontroller. Mine didn't

BMSB do a lot of good stuff if you mix and match.

 

[AF7JA]

I went ahead and ordered the BMS kit last night. My choice was largely prompted by the fact that that have the "right" version of the q100 and that I was able to put the new disc and torque arms in on the same order.

I will try to remember to take pictures as I install it and keep people informed as to how it works out.

 

[d8veh]

What exactly did you order. I hope you didn't order a Q100 with a S06P controller. If you did, it's not too late to change your order.

 

[AF7JA]

What exactly did you order. I hope you didn't order a Q100 with a S06P controller. If you did, it's not too late to change your order.

That appears to be what I ordered. They haven't shipped yet; However, it isn't particularly relevant because it looks like my choices are 1. them, or someone similar (but at least someone that is mentioned here in, generally, positive terms) 2. a random vendor off AliExpress (I did consider one; but the price was no different and it seemed to be even more "unknown") 3. someone outside of my budget; thus, choice 3 is to never build an e-bike at all but to just keep thinking about it.

I am not trying to try to sound too testy; but that is what I asked for advise. It seems that because I just want a "boring" commuter build, there is no interest. I can understand that. A build focused on performance is more interesting.

I did read the "new" q100 thread. I have to say that it seems people are having a lot of trouble with them; but then I am also reading that they are more trouble free than the other alternatives. To be frank, it seems that any kit under about $1,500 is pretty much garbage; so, no matter what I buy it is just a different flavor of junk.

So, no, it is probably not too late to change my order; but, with a lack of good information on what to order instead, I see no reason to do so. Yes, it will probably not be ideal and when i write about ti people will probably comment on how I should have known to but X instead of Y. Really, other than to just go buy a turn-key e-bike, for the thousands of threads here, there isn't much on building a simple, low cost, commuter bike.

Without a specific idea of why I should change my order, and an idea of what I should change it to, I probably will not just randomly change my order.

 

[slowhands]

I have no experience with the BMS controllers, but the Q100H sounds pretty good as a motor. I'd get it or the Q128.

I've had good luck with a low end controller on eBay. The ebay controller is from a US vendor who ships quickly; cost is about $17 shipped. It's the same as all the other cheap Chinese 6 FET controllers, except it costs 3 bucks more and ships from the US to you in 2-3 days. I suggest it as a backup, in case the BMS controller does not come up to scratch as people have suggested. I found the controller to be easy to install and get running, but the documentation is weak, actually no more than a photo in the ebay listing. Anyhow, here is the controller:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371239291127?


This controller is very basic. It's plain and simple. You need only to connect power, motor phases, Hall sensors, and throttle connections to run. Docs are weak, so here is what works for me:

For power, connect the power connector heavy red / black pair to positive and negative battery power, and the third small red wire to positive also (it is probably an ignition on signal, which you can choose to switch later). Connect the 5 smaller wires of the Hall sensor connector to their respective colors on your motor. Red is positive, Black ground, and the trio of blue/green/yellow are the sense wires. If you have the same colors just match them, if not come as close as you can. Connect the heavy blue, green and yellow wires to the motor power phases of matching colors, even though that might not be the correct phasing (more later). Connect the 3 throttle wires to the throttle wires of your motor (match red and black power, the third color is the signal). It should now run from throttle input.

If it does not run, probably the phase wires are mixed up. No worries, easy to fix. Connect the two white learn wires together. The motor should start up at a fixed slow speed a few seconds later. That's great. This verifies that your battery, controller, wiring and motor are probably good, but you may have to switch two motor phase wires. If you have the motor running at fixed speed, twist the throttle. The motor may slow down or stop, which tells you the motor phase wires definitely are connected wrong. If so, switch any two motor phase wires. Trust me, this is the easy way to fix the phasing. The motor should now work. Remember to disconnect the learn wires now.

You can now connect the brake wires, if you want the brakes to kill motor power. You should, or you will burn out your motor fighting the brakes. My brakes have switches that close when you pull the brake levers. Test your brake levers switches with a voltmeter to be sure that is how they work. If so, wire both brake switches in parallel and connect to the two controller wires labeled "low level". Verify that the brake levers interrupt motor power when pulled. Ignore the "high level" wire from the controller.

There is a single magenta wire with a heavy power connector labeled "speed signal", which I think is a misnomer. I don't know what it does, and the motor runs fine without it, so I just ignore it. I'd love to know what it does, if anyone can suggest. It does have a power connector, could it be ... for a brake light? Still scratching my head on it. As I said, it does not appear to be necessary so I'm ignoring it.

There is no PAS input or speedometer input on this controller, which is fine with me. I like that this is a simple controller that has few things to break, so I don't miss the fancy functions. You should know that there is actually a law in the US that says your motor must stop assisting when speed exceeds 20 MPH. OK, so back off on the throttle when you think you are going over 20. Sure you will.

Edit: Postscript. I asked the seller for better installation instructions. Here is what he sent, saying that he got it from his vendor. These instructions are almost comical, but probably typical of what you get with Chinese controllers.

Please ensure the positive and negative of power supply is not reversely connected. The other function lines could be tried to connect till it is connected correctly.
1. Plug the self-learning lines firstly.( The function of the self-learning lines is to learn Motor phase.
2. Connect the power cable, then connect the Power door locks line,Hall line,Phase line, Transfer to wire.
3.Connect the power supplier, the motor will start rotation, after it's rotation is stable if it reverses, unplug self-learning lines, then insert the self-learning lines and it will turn forward. After it is stable, unplug the self-learning lines then it should be OK.
4. After the controller finish the self-learning then plug the functions that your car has.

I tried to use the learn function like this, but it did not seem to actually correct the problem. It spun the motor only, and the motor slowed down in response to the throttle. So I tried blunt force, moving the motor phase wires as described, and that worked just fine. For me the learn function is very useful for forcing a motor to run, which proved I had good parts and good wiring. That is hugely reassuring when you think everything is wired up correctly, but nothing happens when you twist the throttle.

This controller evaluation was a repair job on a broken Chinese "Kysmo" brand of ebike. The bike has a 250w Bafang rear motor, 36v 10AH lithium battery, disc brakes, front shocks, suspension seat, rack and Shimano parts. I got the thing cheap, $80, because it acted like it had a dead battery and there was no replacement for this off brand battery. Turned out the battery was fine but one phase of the controller was shorted. It drained the battery until the BMS cut off the battery, so it looked like a bad battery. It was tricky to diagnose, but by testing each component I located the fault in the controller. I had this jelly bean controller on hand and it solved the problem.

I think the controller failed due to overheating. The controller sat in an closed box beneath the battery -- with no airflow. Looks shipshape, but the controller could not cool itself. It needs airflow. I'll mount the new controller on the seatpost for better cooling, which is maybe not as tidy, but it will be more reliable.

 

[d8veh]

There nothing wong with yhe motors and nothing wrong with the controllers, but the Q100 doesn't work with a S06P because it's for sensorless motors and Q100s don't run very well sensorless. You will get sync problems, where it uns OK at some speeds, but vibrates badly and dtutters at others, which can damage he ontroller if ou give it full power like that.

 

[slowhands]

There nothing wong with yhe motors and nothing wrong with the controllers, but the Q100 doesn't work with a S06P because it's for sensorless motors and Q100s don't run very well sensorless. You will get sync problems, where it uns OK at some speeds, but vibrates badly and dtutters at others, which can damage he ontroller if ou give it full power like that.

Ahh, who knew? Why would they offer a controller that did not work well with one of their best selling motors?? Price, I suppose.

BMS does offer Sine Wave controllers, like the S06S, which does use the Hall effect sensors. Odd that they don't support that on the P versions. I gather the purported benefit of Sine Wave is quieter motor operation, is that right? Does it have good effect? Sounds worthwhile if it quiets motors a bit.

Now, last question. BMS offers "torque simulation" which I gather uses the input from the PAS and possibly the speedometer to modulate speed, simulating the effect of a torque sensor on the chain I presume. Does this work well? What's the benefit of torque simulation? I'm satisfied with just the throttle, so wonder why people bother with features like this.

 

[AF7JA]

At this point the kit arrived. The only things wrong with order is that there is no rim tape; yes, I know that I can use electrical tape, I will probably do that. Also, they sent the wrong throttle type. I asked for a left thumb throttle. They sent a twist throttle.

I will first try to see if it will work with just the PAS, I really don't want a twist throttle.

Another question, the controller is in the bottle battery, is there somewhere I can tap that controller to get between 6-8VDC for the magic shine clone headlight?

 

[amberwolf]

Controller inside the battery? That sounds like a recipe for heat issues, unless it's bolted to a metal heatsink that lets it get the heat outside.

(the issue with them sending the wrong stuff is common with BMS Battery; they have a reputation for doing that)

 

[AF7JA]

It isn't exactly in the battery; I would have been better to have said that the controller is in the base of the battery bracket.

Am I correct that the throttle isn't essential?

As I understand I can run on the PAS alone

 

[Ykick]

I won't use electrical tape for rims. Best "generic" rim tape is hockey stick wrap tape. Next best is genuine cloth gaffer tape. Pedros and I'm sure others make a cloth rim tape but will likely cost much more than a roll of stuff for a hockey stick.

 

[AF7JA]

Okay, I am not quoting a certain rude person because of the likelihood of responding in the same rude manner as he addressed me.

My reason for wanting a left hand thumb throttle is because I intend to rely on the PAS. I simply want the thumb throttle to deal with the possibility of a PAS problem leaving me stranded; a bit of a backup. Further, I have a NuVinci shifter on the right side of the handlebar and have no desire to move it.

I understand that most of the projects here are attempts to build bicycle facility legal motorcycles. I have a motorcycle, that isn't what I am trying to build. I am trying to build a simple commuter that is unquestionably legal.

If I ever get around to trying to build bike facility motorcycle I will certainly emulate normal motorcycle controls. However, that isn't this project.


. . . Well, I got around to installing it today. It took about two hours (I don't work particularly fast). I ended up putting my old brake levers back on.

I realize that not having the interlock is a safety issue. My e-scooters in China all had them. At the same time, the brake levers with the kit were not pulling enough to give me good braking action.

Other than that I seem to have had no trouble holding 15-17 on assist level 3.

The front wheel is not perfectly centered; as in there seems to be a bit of offset, I can adjust that later; however, it was a bit of a fight to get the fenders to clear (yes, full fenders, this is a commuter, not a sport-bike). I am not pleased about stuffing all the connectors in small space in the bottom of the bottle bracket. I can also see myself getting a couple of voltage droppers in order to run the lights; but that is a project for later.

On another note, the bike (rigged for commuting; but no saddlebags) weighed 40.5 before, and 51 pounds after.

 

[slowhands]

Others have kept their original brake levers and glued on parts from the switched brake levers. Here is one thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/v...5&p=1086969&hilit=brake+lever+switch#p1086969
The work amounts to cutting open the switched brake levers to get a magnet and switch, then gluing same to old brake. The cable and connector from the switched brake are also needed, since it is a pain to scrounge for those parts too. In the end, you get what you need with a little work.

 

[amberwolf]

For the situations in which you don't want to/can't modify your levers, they can also be attached to your brake arms or calipers instead of the levers; any part of the brake system that has a piece that moves (even an exposed section of cable) can be used.

 

[AF7JA]

It is still going fine, as mentioned, the purpose was for commuting. A couple of days ago I had a 32mph headwind, on the way to work, and the motor was definitely appreciated.

As I mentioned, I soldered in a lead going to a voltage regulator in order to run mt headlight off the main battery. It seems to have had very little impact on the range; but then, i just plug it into the charger every night when I get home. The motor draw stays pretty low and, if the dash gauge is any indicator, it is almost always under 100W.

The kit motor states as a GBK-100F; which I expect is a Q-100 derivative. What spares should I order in advance?