Hillhater
100 TW
in the interests of accuracy….just sayin’..Yeah, that's why a piddly little Mazda 2 weighs more than a pre-'67 VW bus.
Mazda 2 Neo ..2299 lb
pre 67 VW combi bus …2515 lbs
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in the interests of accuracy….just sayin’..Yeah, that's why a piddly little Mazda 2 weighs more than a pre-'67 VW bus.
Precisely. A software failure in the ABS system can disable brakes completely. And pretty much every car on the road today has ABS. Has that ever happened out of hundreds of millions of vehicles on the road? I haven't heard of it.it could be that a software (or hardware) failure might just totally prevent the “human” activation of the brakes ?![]()
Check 2:35 in the Fortnine ABS video I linked. In motorcycles and older cars, zero software is required for an effective ABS. Just a speed sensor (which doesn't require much, if any, logic) and a solenoid. No reason to get software involved at all.Precisely. A software failure in the ABS system can disable brakes completely.
Since the ABS can interviene to prevent the “human” input locking the wheels, it could be that a software (or hardware) failure might just totally prevent the “human” activation of the brakes ?
In the video, you can see that if for some reason, ABS fails, or stops working, you still have brake control. All that fails is the system that electronically assists your foot in preventing brake lock. The hydraulics is still a closed system, it's not like ABS failure opens up your hydraulic line and kills brake pressure. That would be lawsuit-inducing stupid design. So it's very unlikely to exist.A software failure in the ABS system can disable brakes completely
Are you asking, have cars ever had ABS failure? I've had it happen to two cars that I've owned in the past. You've never seen that warning light come on? It can and does happen, and you can choose to get it repaired, or not, and just make do with brakes that don't have ABS. Are you asking, has there ever been an ABS failure that results in complete loss of brake control? No, that would be silly, for reasons that I mentioned above. Are you asking, has there ever been a software failure that leads to inability for the driver to engage brakes? Yes, that can happen, if, as you say:Has that ever happened out of hundreds of millions of vehicles on the road? I haven't heard of it.
and one example was linked by the video that started this thread, a runaway tesla. And what several people on this forum are saying is, having software control critical systems is not always a good idea. Because as rare as incidents might be, the consequences of said incidences are much higher when humans are unaware of how much control computers have over our safety. They're also much more unpredictable, whereas human error is pretty much guaranteed, and if the majority of people operate under the assumption that fallible, dumb humans are in charge of cars, planes and power plants, then the majority of people can then make more risk-based decisions with their lives, their driving, and their behavior around others. As opposed to going around with an assumption like: "computers are in charge of everything, and they're much safer than people, so I don't have to be as careful anymore."The gas pedal, the brake pedal and the steering wheel have been physically decoupled for a long time now
This source says 2095 lbs for '63 Kombi:in the interests of accuracy….just sayin’..
Mazda 2 Neo ..2299 lb
pre 67 VW combi bus …2515 lbs
You seem to be trying to argue that no software can be 100% reliable. Discounting the fact that there are billions of things in this world that are controlled by software, gas furnaces, ovens, elevators, literally everything modern, running software code 24x7. And they are functioning just fine. I find your argument asinine. So l'm going to leave it at that.....
Yeah, that's why a piddly little Mazda 2 weighs more than a pre-'67 VW bus.
The road arms race hurts all of us.
Precisely. A software failure in the ABS system can disable brakes completely. And pretty much every car on the road today has ABS. Has that ever happened out of hundreds of millions of vehicles on the road? I haven't heard of it.
...yeah as a result of this my 2018 car's accelerator pedal ( totally electronic ) has 7 wires coming out of it last i checked. Only 2-3 are required.. i would guess the extra wires provide a second opinion on what the throttle % should be to add safety.The only "software" issue in cars that I recall is the few unintended acceleration incidents in Toyota cars. And all evidence points to it not being software at all but mass hysteria and possibly floor mats.
You seem to be trying to argue that no software can be 100% reliable. Discounting the fact that there are billions of things in this world that are controlled by software, gas furnaces, ovens, elevators, literally everything modern, running software code 24x7. And they are functioning just fine. I find your argument asinine. So l'm going to leave it at that.![]()
From what I understand the ABS module has a pressure bypass valve for each caliper, 4 wheels 4 calipers/drums, so if the ABS module software decided to bypass pressure to all brakes, it would effectively prevent you from not crashing into something.A majority of cars have been designed as such that ABS doesn't control control braking but intevenes during braking.. from what i understand, if ABS fails then the symptom is that the brake pressure is not rapidly modulated during traction loss.. IE.. the brakes still work except without their function.
My point was that software has long been relied on for life critical systems, where analog circuits used to do it before. It's a natural progression and there nothing inherently wrong with software. It's not all buggy, insecure and unreliable. And there is no evidence whatsoever that auto manufacturers in tandem with all the regulators that exist are putting anything even remotely dangerous on the market. Yes, cars are getting much more complex software, but life critical parts are still compartmentalized and are designed with many fail-safes.Ah you just mentioned software applications that are so miniscule in complexity that previously, small and fairly dumb electronic circuits used to handle those applications.
This is incorrect. If ABS fails, you still have brakes. The bypass valves you are describing, which briefly release and then reapply pressure to prevent wheel lock, are normally closed valves. If they fail, they fail closed, maintaining break pressure, albiet without electronically assisted antilock.From what I understand the ABS module has a pressure bypass valve for each caliper, 4 wheels 4 calipers/drums, so if the ABS module software decided to bypass pressure to all brakes, it would effectively prevent you from not crashing into something.
What if the ABS software keeps the normally closed valves open for as long as the software wants?This is incorrect. If ABS fails, you still have brakes. The bypass valves you are describing, which briefly release and then reapply pressure to prevent wheel lock, are normally closed valves.
Fyi….. it was not a Tesla ….It Was an MG.Also pretty silly of you to say "I've never heard of software disabling brakes", when the first video in the thread is an account of a Tesla's brake software not working.
My bad, I got wires crossed from a couple similar videos I had pulled up at the same time when you posted the videoFyi….. it was not a Tesla ….It Was an MG.
I don't understand, I thought you were convinced that software in charge of critical systems never fails and we should rely on it with no qualms? I dont feel this way: the simplest motorcycle ABS systems, as I have mentioned, can use speed sensors to fire solenoids, and not software, and that's what i would prefer if I had a choice in the matter. Which most customers do not, and it seems likely that we will have even less choice in the future.What if the ABS software keeps the normally closed valves open for as long as the software wants?
Sorry, but if you think a sensor and a solenoid can function in any useful way without some “logic” circuitry (firmware ?) , then i will be amazed.the simplest motorcycle ABS systems, as I have mentioned, can use speed sensors to fire solenoids, and not software,
Nothing is 100% reliable. The question is - is it reliable ENOUGH?You seem to be trying to argue that no software can be 100% reliable. Discounting the fact that there are billions of things in this world that are controlled by software, gas furnaces, ovens, elevators, literally everything modern, running software code 24x7. And they are functioning just fine.
Then be amazed!Sorry, but if you think a sensor and a solenoid can function in any useful way without some “logic” circuitry (firmware ?) , then i will be amazed.
My house that I bought a few years ago, it had a newly installed "smart" thermostat, programmable and whatnot. Failed in a year, stopped being able to turn on the heat. Replaced it with what I thought was a more reliable electronically controlled thermostat, no smarts, just programming on and off. Also failed within a year. Scoured facebook marketplace for a decades-old Honeywell mercury thermostat, no issues for years, and it was already a couple decades old when I got it.Then be amazed!
A 1960s era house furnace has no firmware. But it does have a sensor (a thermostat) a solenoid (fuel or gas valve) and even some electronics (igniter.) And many devices still work that way. I have a toaster, for example, that does just that. Just a bimetallic strip, a few switches and an actuator.
Firmware in a modern toaster is just as reliable as mission critical stuff. There are 0 bugs in that firmware. It fails much more often than mission critical stuff because of hardware issues. Like overheating the logic chip beyond specs every time the toaster turns on.Nothing is 100% reliable. The question is - is it reliable ENOUGH?
Well designed software based systems for mission critical tasks (flight surface control for aircraft, steering assist for cars, ABS etc)
My house that I bought a few years ago, it had a newly installed "smart" thermostat, programmable and whatnot. Failed in a year, stopped being able to turn on the heat. Replaced it with what I thought was a more reliable electronically controlled thermostat, no smarts, just programming on and off. Also failed within a year. Scoured facebook marketplace for a decades-old Honeywell mercury thermostat, no issues for years, and it was already a couple decades old when I got it.
I've worked on mission critical code. And the reliability framework, processes, tracking and testing that it goes through are NOTHING like the code in a toaster.Firmware in a modern toaster is just as reliable as mission critical stuff.