ZEBRA (molten salt) batteries (FIAMM/SONICK)

[mucek]

Hi!

On Friday I have been on a training for ZEBRA battery type. I guess not many of you are familiar with it and this could be an interesting intermezzo to all "lithium-based" posts . (see more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery)

It's an alternative to lithium batteries with pretty similar capacity density, however its main components are nickel, sodium chloride (salt) and metal (construction). The most exotic thing on those batteries is that they require pretty high temperatures to work (around 250 degrees Celsius). Therefore every battery is built into special "box", which isolates the battery, so the heating power required is only around 40 W to keep the internal temperature at 250 degrees.

A BMS is also a part of the battery, as it also has to control heating and cooling (sometimes), however ther is no need for single cell balancing. Usual battery packs have voltages around 200, 400 and 600 W and capacities of 40 - 80 Ah. This battery is not so good for small cars, but comes into play for smaller trucks, buses, vans etc. Its lifetime is pretty long (2500 cycles +) and has been proven now as pretty reliable, as some vehicles are running on this battery for more than 15 years.

Regards,
Gregor

 

[Dauntless]

Good to hear from you, indeed this group has discussed molten salt, sulfur/sodium, even Zebra specifically, yet we're short on specific knowledge just yet.

American developers that I've found are discouraging any thought of vehicular use, they're targeting mass storage for public utilities and for offgrid solar. As my mother is offgrid with solar and a propane generator, there's real prospects for getting rid of her cranky lead acid cells. (Maybe they haven't been a disaster, but I don't think I need to explain the difficulties.) I've had to yank the 100+ pound cells out to replace them, oh to not deal with it for a decade or more.

Seeing so little a car as the Twingo with a Zebra is encouraging. The Solar Taxi needed a trailer of them to go around the world.

 

[mucek]

From what I saw, there's been some improvement made since first series, so also the size and weight went down ... However, for smaller vehicles I guess LiFePO4s are still the best choice (or quality LiPo such as Kokam) ... From my point of view it is an interesting solution that can be alternative to lithium batteries at some point and has a big advantage of "standby" state (if leaving cooled, they can keep SOC for infinite time without loosing any percent ), but still in current condition I don't think, that lithium batteries are endangered

Also their commercialists didn't have a very good answer to my questions about this, especially when it comes down to the price (10k+) ... It's obvious (especially after seeing the production line), that this battery must be expensive as plenty of processes are hand-made and not robotized (only around 2000 battery packs is done per year).

However, there's plenty (1000+) electric vehicles in Europe, running on those batteries right now, most of them are busses and vans.

Regards,
Gregor

 

[vicens]

I'm looking to buy a second-hand electric car.
Convert a electric car does not look good for many reasons. Worst legalize price. it's too expensive.

I'm looking at the Think City. In Spain has zebra battery. With 23kwh aprobechables. There is another model with li-ion batteries. it was not sold in Spain.

The good.

With good autonomy. 220km in town. 180km highway. Little. Low priced second hand.

The bad

It's ugly outside. It is no longer manufactured. Spain dealer says has spares.

I have also looked at the Mitsubishi i-MiEV. That is nicer outside. More powerful. Faster. But autonomy is 150km in the city and I think little. and it is also more expensive.

mucek. Your Twingo was electric or a conversion?

 

[mucek]

Hi!

The Twingo on the image isn't mine, it's a showcase in Sonick factory and was transformed from normal car to electric-drive + ZEBRA pack installed.

If you are planning to buy a second-hand (especially quite old) car with Sonick battery, please make sure, that it is working properly and is mechanically intact.

Most common issue, hard (if not impossible) to resolve, is insulation failure (vacuum between external and internal casing), next one is short circuit to housing, when one of internal cells in pack gets in (electrical) contact and then all casing is on some potential. Battery's electronics has methods to find such critical errors and will disconnect the battery, but there's plenty of errors avalible, which can only be seen via PC software and do not cause battery shutdown.

For Zebra battery you shall use car basically every day, as if it stands for some days/weeks it will either empty battery (needs around 40-80 W to keep battery warm enough) or with a cold battery, which takes 24-48 hours to get it working again.

All autonomies I've seen so far are way higher than you will find in real life; i.e. turning on heating will decrease range by 10-20%, also fan doesn't have so small power consumption etc. So if you want to get a "real life autonomy", divide comercial range by 2

From electric cars you may take a look at german's Stromos; it's Suzuki, transformed into electric variant and sometimes can be found for a really good price (some company commercial cars) with low kilometers. A friend got one with 15 kkm for 10 kEUR, which was basically new.

Regards,
Gregor

 

[vicens]

The battery is this model.

ZEBRA Z36-371-ML3X-76

This car:

http://www.km77.com/00/think/city/2009/think-city-precios.asp

To check the battery failures need to connect the computer. or remove it and look at it.

The problem of isolation. Is it breaks and you can not change ?. If you are in bad shape. Battery does not reach the optimum temperature?

The problem of short cells. Vibration does spoil the connections? o short they are made within the cells?

Here small electric car second hand can be found:

Think City 2009/2012 from € 7,000 transfer taxes not included.

Mitsubishi i-MiEV / Peugeot-ion 2011/2013 or similar from € 11,000 transfer taxes not included.

Before 2009 it has not sold any electric car. the peulleot / Citroen. 106 saxo berlingo electrci never came.

On the autonomy already know. It is in the best case and the new battery. By putting the heating, cold air, down the window, wind or on a slope, autonomy is greatly reduced. I would like a car with a minimum range of 100 km. In any condition. If more is better.

If test. It goes well the Think City. It is necessary to connect the computer to check that this well? Also in Mitsubishi i-MiEV?

Is there a problem to leave the car unplugged for a long period of time. In summer I go on bicicle or motorbike. With the car gets very hot.

 

[Albik]

Hello to everyone, I bought few days ago a Fiat Panda Elektra converted from Mes-Dea Company. It use a Sonick Zebra pack battery mod. z57-253-ML3X-76. They work still, but I would like to replace this pack battery with new Li-NMC. Please there is someone can help me to teach how replace it? I have 2 solution: Samsung SDI 94Ah/3,7V and Chinese Li-NMC 75Ah/3,7V (lower cost). Thank you in advance, who can help me . Bye.