Zerode G1 conversion input welcomed

[everyman07]

Hi –

I have the chance to buy a Zerode cheap(ish). Always liked the bikes but I’m having trouble coming up with a good system to juice it.
Bottom line: I want to build something so cool grown men weep and give thanks that they were alive to see the day…. Or at least want to ride it.

Bike.
Zerode G1. These are the bikes that have an IGH in the frame below the seat, top of the rear triangle. http://www.zerodeusa.com/news/2016/12/31/zerode-g1-and-g2-benefits

Area. I’m in Central PA. We have an abundance of hills but few of them climb over 1200 ft. In front of my house I have a mile long hill with a 6% grade worst hill I would probably ride would be 1.5 miles long at 7+%
Type of riding. 40% road. 60% dirt/fire/gravel road. No “real” singletrack. I’m too old and beat up to be smelling the “flowers” in rock gardens or for high velocity tree hugging.
Speed. 15-20 most of the time with periods of 25-30 mph.
Range. Would like to get 25 to 30 miles per charge.
Battery. 52v 30-40a continuous. 18650s or 20700s if they become readily available. Some triangle configuration probably with a custom box.

Possibilities.

Mid-drive.
Dave does a Tangent drive. It looks cool and seems like he’s gotten it working pretty good but it uses the battery space and I’m not into backpack batteries. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70099&p=1215038&hilit=zerode#p1215038

This guy put a tangent mid-drive in the space where the IGH is. Saves the battery space but you lose the IGH. To get the advantages of a mid-drive you would have to add shifting ability at the rear wheel and there is no easy way to put a derailleur back there.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=235&p=1288843&hilit=zerode#p1288843


Generator.
I briefly toyed with the idea of putting a generating motor where the IGH is located and using a DD at the rear. The pedals would drive the generator which would be controlled through the regen function of the controller. Pedaling would not be part of the drive train – ie not connected to the DD.
I did some math and if a regular person can only generate 75 to 100 watts/hour and you are using 25-35 wh/mile you would only increase the range by 3 to 4 miles. It seems like pedaling with a motor in a normal configuration would add more range.

DD.
Could put a DD like a 1500w Leaf or Crystalyte. However, there are no cut outs so I would have to cut them in. Not the end of the world but not my favorite idea. Also I need some hill climbing ability.

 

[12-C]

Tangent motors!

Dave has one himself.

 

[LightningRods]

The way that I would approach this project would be to run high voltage, high amperage single speed motor power to the body of the IGH hub. I would not try running enough power to make this project fun to ride through the gears. Pedal power would have full use of the gears as it does now. The Tangent would work fine if you don't mind the noise. I'd use a low kv RC motor that would only need one stage of reduction.

Hub motors definitely have their place. On this bike is not one of them.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Cool bike.

If it was mine, I would ditch the IGH at the center of the bike and replace it with a geared hub motor. it would take some work to get that to fit, probably a customer axle replacement. I'd then put a IGH in the rear, and probably a 2 speed crank to replace the stock piece.

A DD would work, but that would be a big heavy boat anchor on the end of a light weight suspension frame like that. it would never handle well.

With a frame design like that, a mid drive would need to be a full custom build. That has a uniquely designed frame around the bottom bracket, and nothing is likely to fit without serious compromise.

 

[MadRhino]

Yep. That is a very interesting, and challenging frame to build. It is calling for a custom mid drive, and sure worth the trouble to build one. I had said a while ago, that if I would ever build a mid drive, it would be on a Zerode Gearbox one.

Keep posting as you build it. We wil be many to watch.

 

[tangentdave]

People stop me all the time to ask about my ride. I use it to chase down motos. 6kW is not an ebike, sound is a bonus at these speeds on the trail.




I've removed the IGH for a jackshaft and run singlespeed, geared for 35mph at 52V. Max power is limited to 6kW (120A @ 52V), enough to spin the tire on gravel from 0-30mph. I was never able to turn up full power without the IGH slipping out of gear, but the IGH did hold up ok. This setup is a 3turn Astro 3220, Tangent 20:1 w/ 20t freewheel running to a 20t/24t jackshaft, then out to a 32t cog at the rear wheel (26.5:1 motor->wheel). The trail manners of this bike is sort of amazeballs.

Alternatively, you could fit a Tangent and 3210 where the IGH normally sits, like Rob Metz has done on his personal G2. He has it geared for about 25mph.



Sadly, I won't be producing these Tangent units any longer. A lighter, stronger, larger engine version is in the works if you can hold out through the winter. If not, mount a cyclone or LR's big block motor above the shock, or like others have said, a geared hub motor. There's 130mm between the steel triangle plates in the frame and 4.5" diameter clearance at the frame centerline, about 3" diameter clearance 50mm from centerline.


-dave

 

[everyman07]

Thanks for the suggestions. Some really experienced folks have taken the time to chime in and I really appreciate that.

I should mention that while I have some mechanical skills I do not have fabricating ability or equipment.

 

[LightningRods]

Here's what I was talking about in terms of driving the body of the IGH rather than going through the internal gearing. The motor drives a sprocket attached to the left spoke flange. The body of the IGH rotates and spins an output sprocket on the right spoke flange. Pretty much unbreakable. Pedal power enters the IGH normally on the right outside sprocket.

I don't use internal reduction on my motor so I have an additional stage of external reduction before going to the IGH sprocket. The Tanget would drive directly to the IGH on the left. If the Tangent can be flipped over to drive the left side. I see that Dave's bike drives the right side.

This mocked up drive will be going on a Ruff Cycles cruiser. Because it's not a downhill racer and clean looks matter I chose an 8 speed IGH with internal drum brake. For off road I'd use a smaller IGH and the rear wheel disc brake. With this arrangement I'm going to use a front wheel disc brake spool hub on the rear. Flipped over to mount the driven sprocket on the rotor flange on the right.

You could do this with the 3220 Tangent or my Big Block. A Cyclone 3000 would work but would make about 1/2 the power. A hub motor that would make decent power seems like it would be too large in diameter for the space in the frame.

 

[MadRhino]

@LighningRods
Your solution is very interesting, and particularly applicable to a Gearbox frame. It doesn't require complicated fabrication and can adapt to commercially available drives, or custom fitted with more powerful motors as well.

 

[LightningRods]

Thanks MadRhino. You don't have to choose between an IGH or single speed jackshaft in these installations. The motor has 3000 rpm or more. We can only pedal at 100 rpm. We need the IGH gears a lot more than the motor does. The more powerful the motor the less you need gears and the less able IGH gears are to handle the power.

 

[everyman07]

Mike -

Thanks for posting the pics. That helps me visualize what you and MadRhino are talking about.

If I'm understanding it right, this approach makes sense to me. The Zerode already has two sprockets on one side - one input from the pedals, the other out to the back wheel. By putting another sprocket on the other side as you show in your picture I can easily convert the existing setup - provided there is room. The questions then becomes is there room for sprocket and chain and how to mount the motor to the frame.

What I like about this is that I should be able to use the IGH to adjust pedaling to be able to keep up with the various speeds the bike/motor are doing. I haven't run anything through a gear calculator to see how realistic that is since I'm still trying to figure out how to think about all the various gearings to do that. Dave's gear ratios are probably a good start.

Thinking this through has made many lightbulbs go off. I've been reading ES for a good while now and still need to read stuff twice and do additional research to understand what some of you guys are saying. Doing this has made a lot of theories click for me.

Thanks

 

[LightningRods]

I'm glad the pictures helped. This should be a very cool bike.

Dave, if you're still watching this thread can your motor run reverse direction with the output on the left side?

 

[everyman07]

So it turns out the seller decided to give the bike to his buddy.

He generously offered to return my deposit though! I explained to him that deposits were non-refundable only when the buyer backs out but that was met with a blank stare.

I'm pretty bummed. There was some great input from some darn smart folks and a good build plan formed.

I was really looking forward to doing the build. My welding/fabrication friend even made some room in his workshop for me. I was even more excited to ride it.

I may try looking for another Zerode but they are hard to find and expensive when you do.

Thanks again for all the help, sorry I couldn't do the build and show it to you.

 

[LightningRods]

We could always take a regular FS bike and mount an IGH and motor in it.

 

[MadRhino]

You can find one next winter. They are getting old and sell pretty cheap off season. Buy a large, no matter your size. That is important if you are gonna feed it some interesting power.

Ps. Never give or take a deposit. Either you buy it and take it, or you don't. That is what I tell to those who want to buy, and what I tell to myself in the same situation.