BRAKES making them better ????

[MadRhino]

No matter how many brakes you tried or fixed. Once you start to measure your braking distance from 60 Mph in various conditions, you know that no mechanical brake can compete with a good hydro brake.

Differences in braking distance are enormous with different brakes and riders, and the faster the speed the bigger the difference. Don't go believing that your own experience with mechanical brakes does apply at any speed and any conditions. Braking distance is the only valuable argument.

 

[DRMousseau]

Too bad you didn't try better rim brakes first. Good, competently set up linear pull brakes with Kool Stop pads will categorically outperform BB5 brakes while costing half as much. This is especially true with large diameter wheels like 29". When the wheel gets bigger, the rim brake does too... but the disc brake stays the same size and loses leverage.

I think that most of people's overestimation of bicycle disc brakes is due to never having tried making rim brakes deliver their potential.

YES! And that full potential can often be very elusive! Of course todays technology of Kool Stops, cables and such, with the high tech markets of availability, certainly has made it much better than days past. That 29er, surprisingly, had the worst I'd ever seen or experienced on a bike! But ya typically get what you pay for, and the base bike was rather cheap! Ugh! It was certainly costly in making a disk conversion, but it was nearly as costly to make the vast improvements necessary to the rim brake system, including mounts! AHHHH! AND,... motor was equipped for disk,... why not? Were the BB5s my best choice? Let's jus say they've been an acceptable choice given the parameters of use I intended.

No matter how many brakes you tried or fixed. Once you start to measure your braking distance from 60 Mph in various conditions, you know that no mechanical brake can compete with a good hydro brake.

And yet those 18-wheelers on the highway rely on air-assisted MECHANICAL brakes! As do railcars and other heavy equipment.

Differences in braking distance are enormous with different brakes and riders, and the faster the speed the bigger the difference. Don't go believing that your own experience with mechanical brakes does apply at any speed and any conditions. Braking distance is the only valuable argument.

SAFE, CONTROLED BRAKING, is the only valuable argument!!! And the dynamics of speed, weight, balance, tires, road surface, trail surface, prevailing conditions of environment, brake surfaces, equipment, etc., etc.,..... ALL, affect that safe controlled braking!!!! And without which,... you'd likely have NO braking, regardless of cables, rods, hydraulics or pneumatics!

Technology has made hydraulic disks an available option,.... it's also contributed to improved mechanical cable systems and even rim constriction and rim brakes. Better? Once your "locked-up" you're no longer braking,... you're in a skid! Hopefully a controlled skid! And every kid knows that even coaster brakes can put ya in a skid!

 

[Chalo]

No matter how many brakes you tried or fixed. Once you start to measure your braking distance from 60 Mph in various conditions, you know that no mechanical brake can compete with a good hydro brake.

I can tell you that's simply not true. The strongest, best brake I have among all my bikes, better than any bicycle disc or hydraulic brake, is a cable rim brake I made myself. I went 55 mph downhill on this bike on my way to work in Seattle on any given day, so though the bike has never been electrified, it has seen high speeds. (With over 400 pounds gross weight.)



But despite this brake being the strongest bicycle brake I ever tried, and despite it being able to provide probably double the continuous power of any bicycle disc brake without failure, I'm not sure it would improve stopping distances noticeably over some other commercially available brakes I have. As hard as you can brake without a nose wheelie is as hard as you can brake, even if the brake has more to offer. Just because you prefer the way one brake feels over another does not make it stop shorter. As for me, I prefer the feel of a rim brake in that a moderate squeeze of the lever gives you moderate braking force.

The last time I did a maximum stopping power test for no good reason, I buckled the bike frame, jammed the front wheel against it, and broke both my arms. That was a cable disc brake. Like I said before, due to my size I have come to understand limitations of bicycle braking that you will never confront. Count yourself lucky, and trust me when I tell you that hydraulic discs have their virtues, but they are not quantifiably superior to cable discs or rim brakes.

 

[MadRhino]

There is a limit to braking power that you can apply to rims, before you start digging and cracking them. Even thick trial rims don't last very long, and we are not speeding on those bikes. As soon as a rim is less than perfect, the braking precision and braking distance is affected. Then we have mud and snow and slush, that are making them inefficient.

Braking from 55 is something I do everyday, not a once in a lifetime experience. I gave up on rim brakes long ago, because there are way too many situations where they need more than twice the distance to stop. Of course there is a comfort dimension too. When you have to brake at high speed everyday, a good hydro brake is not only safer. It does make braking easy and relax, with one finger, with a consistent braking distance that you can estimate reliably.

I don't know anyone today, who would buy a car without the power brakes, and I don't know anyone riding a bike at high speed daily, who would like to go back to rim brakes after getting used to hydros. Theory and low speed experience, maintenance preferences or intimate conviction, are not gonna change that fact.

 

[DRMousseau]

I don't know anyone today, who would buy a car without the power brakes, and I don't know anyone riding a bike at high speed daily, who would like to go back to rim brakes after getting used to hydros. Theory and low speed experience, maintenance preferences or intimate conviction, are not gonna change that fact.

Don't know many cars MADE with other than "power brakes, and yet many small class motorcycles today, made to meet DOT specs, are equipped with cable actuated DRUM brakes :? ,... also seeing daily highway speeds, AND many weighing considerably more than an e-bike. Go figure. A comparable trail motorcycle available today, will also be so equipped AND often driven over 55. Typical motorcycles need over 100' to stop from 30mph,... twice what I need from the same speed.

My preference for disk bicycle brakes, lies purely in the ability of easily and cheaply replacing disk and brake surfaces over re-lacing and truing replacement rims, and messin' with pad adjustments, EVEN THOUGH rim brakes may be more effective. Other factors also influence my choices and obviously not in the manner that some others may be influenced. I've also blown enough hydraulic lines and fittings to sometimes make me reconsider those matters too.

 

[Chalo]

This RC116 was Honda's fourth successive design generation of Ultra-lightweight Grand Prix race bike that used cable actuated rim brakes. 115 miles an hour in competitive conditions, and they thought the brakes were good enough to use them year after year.

I don't think you can characterize them as inadequate. I think you can only decide they're unfashionable.

 

[MadRhino]

I am riding disc brakes on bikes and motorcycles for a very long time. I had damaged a brake hose only twice and one was in a crash. I have some Magura brakes here, that are still riding after 14 years with the original pistons and hoses. The 225 mm Hope rotors on my commuter had seen 20 k miles, 2 motors, many crashes in the mountain before the bike was mod for street. They are still good and true, although they have lost some thickness enough to make me want to change them next winter. That is 120$ in 20 k miles for the rotors, about the same in brake pads. Very cheap for peace of mind and racing spec braking performance.

My previous commuter had done over 30 k miles with the Magura Gustav brakes without any other expense than brake pads.

I started using disc brakes on motorcycles as soon as they became available. My fist MX with 2 disc brakes was a 1989 YZ 125. Today, motorcycle brakes are available with amazing performance improvements. I can't imagine a rider in the trafic with poor braking performance, that is death wish. For me, investing less for brakes than for a motor, is like playing roulette with my skin and bones.

@ Chalo

Half a century is another era. In the sixties, I was stoned on acid riding a chopped hard tail 71 cu in pan head.

 

[zackclark70]

looks like this will be a long debate has anyone else here had rim breaks melt / disintegrate from long descents or there cables stretch in just a few hundred miles ? i have been using hydros for over 80,000 miles total with over 500-1000 a month right now between my road legal and my offroad bike

 

[MadRhino]

The debate started so long ago, we can't even remember when. Chalo is the forever defendor of rim brakes, jumping in every time a new thread is started about brakes. If we would gather all his posts about them, he could publish the rim brake bible in 1000 pages. :wink:

 

[zackclark70]

The debate started so long ago, we can't even remember when. Chalo is the forever defendor of rim brakes, jumping in every time a new thread is started about brakes. If we would gather all his posts about them, he could publish the rim brake bible in 1000 pages. :wink:

i am not sure whats up with his bias towards cable / rim brakes i have seen him promote staying within the laws / people not ridding stupid fast motorbikes pretending they are ebikes so he does do some good on the forum ( i will always use the breaks that provide the lowest running costs / best performance i have no bias just want to stay alive on roads and trails whare all the people seem to want to kill you )

 

[DRMousseau]

Dang,... my hand shifted '49 FL was 74ci. And it had cable and rod actuated drum brakes too.

looks like this will be a long debate has anyone else here had rim breaks melt / disintegrate from long descents or there cables stretch in just a few hundred miles ? i have been using hydros for over 80,000 miles total with over 500-1000 a month right now between my road legal and my offroad bike

I HAVE had rim shoes "melt", "roll" "peel" and crumble, and numerous rim surface issues that affected good brakes too. But what many assume is cable stretch, is actually housing failure,... flex and compression issues that are much improved today in quality cables. Solid housings and reduced housing runs help a lot,... but the nature of handlebar movement, still requires flexible cables or flexible hydraulic lines.

I've always felt that my most important issues were that of insufficient area of braking surfaces and materials. Again, much improved in all,... drum, rim, AND disks systems. Ceramics have been great in some auto applications,.... I wonder of their use in "micro" applications like bikes. Any experience with this??? Do they even exist??? What, if any, improvements are notable???

 

[MadRhino]

They exist. Ceramic brake pads are lasting longer but with less grip. They also wear the rotors. Best performance is with natural brake pads but they are not lasting. Bi-metallic is the best compromise between performance and life. Sintered brake pads with metal particles is the most common kind, but many different qualities are made. The best brakes are usually sold with the best pads for them and it is hard to beat the originals. Cheaper brakes can be improved by finding better pads on the jobber market.

 

[Chalo]

I'm not stuck on rim brakes. My own bikes have a mix of discs, drums, calipers, linear pulls, cantilevers, U-brakes, coaster brakes, and roller brakes. I've even owned two different bikes with hydraulic brakes in the past, and they worked fine-- they just didn't offer any tangible benefits to compensate for their drawbacks.

If I had to choose a favorite kind of brake, it would probably be traditional drums-- but not because they're particularly strong. It's because they're the cleanest, most consistent, and lowest maintenance of all brakes for bicycles.

I chime in on these threads when people say that discs are more powerful or offer shorter stops than rim brakes, only because it isn't true. When I no longer have to correct this false information, I'll stop doing it.

 

[HY10]

60mph !
Diaper would have to be bigger than the bike

 

[MadRhino]

You'd be surprized to know how many bikes on ES are beating the 60Mph.

The HS 22 hydraulic rim brakes, are enough to break most rims although their piston pressure is much lower than good disc brake calipers.

 

[zackclark70]

You'd be surprized to know how many bikes on ES are beating the 60Mph.

The HS 22 hydraulic rim brakes, are enough to break most rims although their piston pressure is much lower than good disc brake calipers.

lots and lots off fast bikes on here you guys over in the us are more crazy than us guys but i do still see a fair amount of fast ebikes here in the uk just annoying when im riding my road legal and get over taken by a bike going 4x faster lol just hope 1 day i see them at one of the offroad places i go to that let ebikes in as im sure my beast will destroy them saying that i need a new wheel after i got taken out by an idiot on 250cc dirt bike yesterday just wish peoples rideing skill was as good as there bikes are ( no clue why somone would slam there front break on wet slippery mud when trying to under cut you on a corner as your bound to wipe out wide ass dirt tyers or not ) lucky i did not do to bad just a scuffed leg and sore shoulder lol

 

[999zip999]

I have a drum brake a muxus 3,000 on regen. Operated by both brake levers. Plus dual color koolstops works great. I have to be careful when riding the range as rim brakes can pick up rocks mud or dirt and cut the tire next to the rim brakes. That's a down fall of rim brakes.

 

[Raisedeyebrows]

Simplex Coaster Brake on my old BMX bike. That thing will lock the wheel up and stop on a dime, the shoes are easy to replace. Nothing to adjust like those rim and disk brakes all you cork sniffers use.

 

[MadRhino]

The wet snow, or salted slush on the street, are the worse conditions for rim brakes. They have no chance to wipe and grip since the rim does pick up some more at every turn of the wheel. Then the snow and melting agents are packing the brake hardware, that soon start rusting if you neglect washing them after every ride.

Riding off road, it is pretty often that a rim is beaten enough to require trueing. Unless you stop and true your wheel on the spot, you finish the ride with shitty rim brake. When the rim has a small dent, trueing it won't restore perfect rim brake and you have to replace the rim.

Disc brakes saved me so much hassle, and even saved my bones in many occasions.

Drum brakes were good, with shoes that have bigger surface than pads. The don't let the dirt in, making them very consistent. Yet they don't let the dirt out, as the shoes are wearing. This is the cause of increasing heat and decreased performance with usage, and you can't see unless you open them. Their weight is also a factor to be considered.

 

[DRMousseau]

Well,... no doubt about it, braking a 2-wheel ride takes skill when front and rear are independently operated!! Not likely to see electronically controlled braking for two-wheelers!

Since I'm a pavement rider who only sometimes sees 30-40mph, I really like what regen contributes. I typically keep it set high on my rear hub, a rather large gap between activation and the actual brake contact keeps me off the pads when activated and greatly extends brake wear as it quickly drags speed down when riding reasonably. Not really effective below 12-15mph, but at that speed most any brake is sufficient. I use to jus coast a good distance up to anticipated stops, jus to keep off the brakes as much as possible. Regen coasting reduces that distance now. And long downhills have mostly no need for brakes at all now,... regen has been nice to me.

But traffic and hazards on pavement,... GOTTA STOP DANG GOOD!

I wonder of a "rule of thumb" in relationship of braking surface area, to tire contact, weight, speed and such. New build will be EXTREME in relative weight, tire surface, COG, rotational inertia, etc., when compared to typical bikes/e-bikes. Think "light motorcycle" with adult passenger capacity. I already have concerns of rear axle limits I'm workin' on. But I'm also thinkin' some exceptional rear brake will be necessary,... likely a HD dual piston caliper with as much pad surface as possible. Wanna somewhat keep within a "bicycle" realm,... so what's typical of HEAVY e-bike brakes??? Tandems??? Cargos??? I have no experience in these,... and don't really want motorcycle applications.

 

[MadRhino]

Large pad surface area is making a big difference, larger rotor diameter too. This is for heat mostly. At high speed and/or heavy weight, big brakes are much better.

Then, to improve braking distance, tires and geometry are the most important factors.

Narrow tires are not good stoppers, small contact area making it too easy to lock the wheel. Narrow tires users don't need braking power, even at high speed. They need to be conscious of the modulation of their brakes, and the limits of their tires. Those are more likely to be happy with rim brakes.

To achieve a short braking distance, you need contact area and grip quality. The best braking tire for your bike need to be found by experience, trying them on your bike, on your average terrain. Start with 2.5 to 3" wide, soft gum, medium thread height. You will be close to your best. Then try various thread, PSI, rim width... This is a long term process, unless you have a lot of time and money to spend, and need to find in a week. After finding your best braking tire for one bike, it will be shorter to find it for another, if you ride the same conditions.

Geometry does a lot by giving the rider the ease to move his weight on the rear, as the braking force does compress the front and unload the tail. When you are in a roadie posture with the saddle high and drop bars, it is impossible to achieve a good braking distance. That is when a drop post might be useful. :wink: Ideally, your cockpit is fee enough to let you either drift or wheelie on a start, this ability does translate in short braking distance as well. Long wheelbase does help of course, but only on straight braking line. It is easier to wash out the front, braking entering a turn with a longer bike.

If you really work on it, your ebike target braking distance, from 60 Mph on ideal warm dry pavement, is around 110 ft. That is very safe in the trafic because very few cars can do it. That is my experience with 250 lbs total riding weight, on a test braking line. Reaction time does make it longer in emergency situation. It is shorter than most motorcycles can achieve, but longer than some cars that are equipped with the best brakes and tires. Once you know your braking distance, it is good to be able to estimate the braking distance of the other vehicles around you.

 

[ddk]

every thing changes once you add motor brakes
The best brakes I've used in my hilly area is a combination EBS with simple cantilever rim brake and it has been tested at 45MPH (going downhill 7% grade for 1 mile) then braking to below 15MPH for the rest of the descent.
I've destroyed every mechanical brake system on this same descent for whatever reason.
Anyway, I'm sold on using both mechanical and e-brakes on the front wheel.
I took this picture because this trike's brakes felt a little weaker. I can't bend over or kneel so I usually take a photo to determine the problem, which is quite evident in the picture (misaligned brake pad)

I don't particularly like bicycle disk brakes because of their high maintenance compared to rim brakes, but then again we all ride differently.

 

[MadRhino]

The best bicycle disc brakes are low maintenance, but they are expansive.

On a trike, using regen on the front does make sense. I wouldn't want the weight of a motor on the front of a bike, when it has a good suspension fork especially.

 

[markz]

How often do hydraulic brakes fail and leak?

 

[zackclark70]

How often do hydraulic brakes fail and leak?

had my current hydros 6 years only ever had to change the pads a few times no other issues other than no paint left on the leavers due to use i would estimate maybe 20k miles on that bike i have more issues with drive train than anything else