BRAKES making them better ????

[Overclocker]

I was gunna ask about BB5 vs BB7 and Organic, Semi Metal and Sintered. I assume Sintered means full metal?

Yes, sintered means fully metallic. Sintering is the process of making solid​ metal out of powdered metal by application of heat and pressure.
.

sintering is forming by heating, but below the melting point

"metal" brake pads contain more metal bits than "resin" pads so they wear longer. but yes even the resin pads do contain metal bits

 

[Hillhater]

Just happened to notice in the LBS a new German "Sinus", Ebike, integrated Bosch Mid drive , Nexus hub, 29" wheels , etc ....but what cought my eye were the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes !!
Unusual, infact the only one of hundreds of bike in the shop with them.
Its been probably 20 yrs since i last saw hydro rim brakes, ..are they making a comeback ?

 

[Chalo]

Its been probably 20 yrs since i last saw hydro rim brakes, ..are they making a comeback ?

No, they just never went away altogether. I had some in the early '90s. They worked​ great; it just wasn't worth the hassle of keeping up with the hydraulics, when a cable did just as well with much less trouble.

Where Magura hydraulic rim brakes, like any hydraulic brakes, make sense is where there's a long tortuous route between the lever and the caliper. The front of a Long John is a good example.

 

[MadRhino]

...

Anyway, I don't think I've ever worked on disc brakes that were serviced by their owner that didn't rub or have an unusual amount of lever take-up before engaging. With hydraulics, it's almost always rub. At least they still stop when they rub.

Of course, you will never work on disc brakes that are tuned and working. Most who fit and tune their brakes, will never bring their bike in a bike shop anyway. When disc brakes started to be popular on MTBs, most bike shops couldn't do a proper brake job. That is why most MTB riders are tuning their own brakes today. Same goes with suspension. Even today, after 2 decades of steady popularity, most bike shops won't rebuild a simple oil bath fork, and look at modern suspensions as they are from an alien ship.

 

[tomjasz]

...

Anyway, I don't think I've ever worked on disc brakes that were serviced by their owner that didn't rub or have an unusual amount of lever take-up before engaging. With hydraulics, it's almost always rub. At least they still stop when they rub.

Of course, you will never work on disc brakes that are tuned and working. Most who fit and tune their brakes, will never bring their bike in a bike shop anyway. When disc brakes started to be popular on MTBs, most bike shops couldn't do a proper brake job. That is why most MTB riders are tuning their own brakes today. Same goes with suspension. Even today, after 2 decades of steady popularity, most bike shops won't rebuild a simple oil bath fork, and look at modern suspensions as they are from an alien ship.

my two LBS are fantastic with discs, most are to,cheap and have poorly adjusted brakes in my limited circle.

 

[amberwolf]

amberwolf - Very interesting, how are the brake levers actuated?
Just one lever for both or what.

Separate one for each. Avid adjustable (speed dial?), IIRC. I also have a separate lever for the rear ebrakes (does both at once), and a separate one for the brake lights. It sounds complicated, but it's easy to operate, and gives me options (that I use in various ways in traffic) I don't have with combination levers.

But I will end up with just one lever for the front at some point, as there's no need for that complication. (If I ever end up with a motor and regen braking up there, though, I'll have a separate lever for that).


Though I have a dual lever it's not a great lever, and is destined to be used for the rear mech rim brakes once I build those and get them installed (whenever that is ).

I'd sure love to see a picture of your setup in the brake lever department.

Hmmm...I guess I don't really have any good pics that show the bars and controls. So I fixed that:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67833&p=1292333#p1292333

 

[markz]

Thats the setup I thought, so one of them (the right one in the first clear picture of the levers) is a little angled I see, thats how you get them so close. Oh I did not notice on the one side you got the one long lever and one short lever, smart move. But on the other side the levers are both the same length, short levers. Interesting.

I was thinking about this and for mechanical brakes its an easier caliper mount, just braze on the mount. But the issue is how to get a 2 in 1 action for the lever. One lever, 2 brake actions.

 

[amberwolf]

so one of them (the right one in the first clear picture of the levers) is a little angled I see, thats how you get them so close.

They are not really "angled"; just their handlebar clamps are butted up against each other, one rotated around the bars vs the other because that's the only way they can be that close together.

The ones on the left side are different lengths only because that's just what I had at hand at the time I put them on.

I was thinking about this and for mechanical brakes its an easier caliper mount, just braze on the mount.

If you have steel to do it to, sure--but if you have an alloy fork (like mine) or frame you can't braze to it. That's why I had to clamp on a U brace that has the bosses on it.

But the issue is how to get a 2 in 1 action for the lever. One lever, 2 brake actions.

This is the dual lever I have (not presently in use):

and there are others; one possible search:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/dual-brake-lever
But most are pretty cheaply made, and the only adjustment you get is the cable housing tension knob.

I like the Avid ones (speed dial?) I'm using on the right because I can fine-tune the leverage/response with the knob by the pivot. But they don't make a dual-cable lever like that.

I have a rough idea of how I could use the split-cable housing off a BMX bike's headtube to pull two brakes, but I've never worked out the details. There are probably other ways to pull two cables with one lever, too.

 

[Chalo]

There are probably other ways to pull two cables with one lever, too.

The Problem Solvers cable doubler. Elegantly simple and alarmingly non-cheap:.

Back at the turn of the century, there was a gadget called​ the Primo Pervert, which accomplished the same thing and had barrel adjusters in it.

The Primo Pervert is pretty easy to emulate DIY-style, which is good because it didn't have enough cable travel for linear-pull brakes or mechanical discs. It's also easy to attach housing stops to the frame and get Pervert-type functionality with only a yoke piece to branch the cables.

 

[tomjasz]

HAH! The picture off eBay!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-school-bmx-freestyle-primo-pervert-fit-Haro-hutch-mongoose-redline-gt-etc-/152559562183?hash=item2385422dc7:g:9AwAAOSwB-1Yo8T0

 

[markz]

I bought the Sunlite dual cable lever. Wanting to use both disc brakes and V-brake on the front. Just wore through the V pads right down to the metal. I dont have a rear brake on, yet. Ordered a rear 203 disc and waiting for delivery.

Problem Solvers Cable Doubler is $55

Then the other one

 

[Chalo]

Note that you'll need to back out the barrel adjusters on the Pervert most of the way if you use it on linear pull or mechanical disc brakes. Even then, you may run out of travel.

 

[zackclark70]

i have been using hydraulic disk breaks on my main bike for years now with no issues other than changing pads i have no idea why people here that have good experience with bikes would ever suggest that cable breaks are better my breaks were not expensive they were about 100 for a front and back kit made by tektro i know there is far better that that out there and the price is so much lower than before i can stop stupid quick when going 50mph down a huge hill and by the end the disks are glowing i wouldn't trust cable breaks to do that !

 

[Chalo]

You can't boil a cable. A cable will never leak out. Tugging on a cable won't make your braking fail completely. You can troubleshoot and often fix a problem with a cable while out on the road. If you put the wrong kind of cable in your brake, the brake won't be ruined. A cable brake doesn't require special proprietary tools. You can fine tune the leverage ratio and feel of a cable brake. If you let a cable come into contact with your brake rotor, the rotor will still work just fine.

Do you still have no idea why someone might prefer a cable brake?

I have been working as a bicycle mechanic starting in 1992. I got my first hydraulic brakes about the same time. 25 years later, I have something over a dozen bikes of my own, and not one of them has hydraulics. Yet they all have very good brakes. How can this be?

My strongest bicycle brakes have rotors that weigh about one kilogram each, and are made of a material with twice the specific heat capacity and ten times the thermal conductivity of stainless steel brake rotors. So of course they'll never get glowing hot. I would consider that an indication that I had the wrong brakes for the job.

 

[markz]

Chalo stated it perfectly! about hydraulic brakes.
Old school braking over disc!
I just bought Shimano Atlus V-brake levers for the stock V-brake on the Strong GTS bike. But I plan to try out dual pull adding in mech disc. Experimentation you could call it.

 

[MadRhino]

Some just don't ride fast enough, or bad enough conditions, to really need them. When you realize that you can't stop at a reasonable braking distance anymore, it is time to think about good hydro disc brakes. Yet, even at moderate speed, hydros are so much more comfortable and precise to brake, that once you are used to them you never want to go back.

 

[zackclark70]

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink ....

For anyone that thinks cable breaks are better than hydro please provide evidence

Half the people that read this ride e-bikes that can go 15.5mph minimum and the other half can go 30mph+ its always best to stay as safe as possible and cable breaks are just not as responsive i like to stay alive do you ?

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

NO do not waste your time and money with unnecessary hydraulic bull puckey. Just don't. It's a bicycle, not an earth mover. If you use thatcrap, ...

yar...
instead, waste your time & money on necessary synthetic fiber cable..

chalopa teezer

 

[markz]

Cable Disc Brakes 'Arrr Good
Avid BB7's 'Arrr Where Itz @

 

[DRMousseau]

Been messin' with brakes is some manner my whole life, band brakes, shoe brakes, surface brakes,.. all kinds on jus about everything.

My first rides had cable and/or rod actuated mechanical brakes,.... '35 Chevy, '49 Harley, and other motorcycles, not to mention hand brakes of various vehicle sorts. They were all limited and some were downright scary, and forced most to assuring safe distances to stop within, much unlike today. The worst, being that of multi-wheel braking and balance that was jus impossible with mechanical brakes! Hydraulic brakes were a vast improvement for automobiles. And later, hydraulic disk technology vastly improved braking of heavy motorcycles.

I once hated bicycle rim brakes of any kind! Early rim brakes were plagued with numerous issues of early technologies,... rim construction and materials, spokes, basic cable construction, and required perfection found only on high end "adult" road bikes with 3-speed hubs. Someone noted that they only had so much "braking force", then any amount of additional pull jus wouldn't give more. Typical of cable stretch, and mostly housing flex,... long rear brake cables being the worst. It was overcome somewhat in early designs by reducing housing lengths and allowing only the cable to traverse the distance along the bottom or side of the frame in route to the rear caliper.

Then cabled actuated "micro" disk systems for bicycles came about,.... as crude as early ones were, I LOVED 'EM!!!! Especially on the front,... much smoother, more positive, controllable, and super effective!!! Added improvements in cable construction also helped. Sure, they sometimes dragged, were terrible when wet, and not always easy to adjust, but so much better than rim brakes, IMO. I currently have BB-5's now on my 29er,.... huge VAST improvement over the stock rim brakes the bike originally had, which were marginal at casual pedaling speed. With added weight and speeds up to 40mph, I can now stop safely in far less distance than bike did when stock!

Today,... we got technology that makes hydraulic disk systems a real and viable alternative for equally high-tech performance bicycles!!! Are they necessary? Most certainly, for some. Jus as those early rim brakes were necessary for others.

If my speed was limited to 15mph max on road surfaces,... good basic rim brakes might be jus fine! But as the demands of performance goes up,... so do the demands of brakes. And that might mean the best rim brakes available, OR for some, a hydraulic disk system.

Will "I" have a hydraulic disk system on my new build? I don't expect speeds in excess of 30mph. I don't foresee any "off-road" or rough trail use. But my extreme weight, load capacity, and other dynamics, have given me reason to at least closely consider hydraulics over cable actuated disk systems. Gotta have good brakes! And gotta luv the technology that makes them possible.

 

[MadRhino]

Cable Disc Brakes 'Arrr Good
Avid BB7's 'Arrr Where Itz @

Once you learned using both hands on the front brake lever to avoid crashing in the tail of a truck.

Some of us are riding too fast for cable pull brakes. Every brake has a limit, speed and weight, where it becomes dangerous.

 

[DRMousseau]

Cable Disc Brakes 'Arrr Good
Avid BB7's 'Arrr Where Itz @

Once you learned using both hands on the front brake lever to avoid crashing in the tail of a truck.

Some of us are riding too fast for cable pull brakes. Every brake has a limit, speed and weight, where it becomes dangerous.

Hahaha! Took both feet on my '35 Chevy truck sometimes,... thought the steering wheel would break pulling against it with all my weight in the air on those brakes!!!! And that only at 35mph,.. it's top speed on the flat. The old motorcycles were jus plain "white-knuckle" rides!

But speed and weight aren't the only influencing issues of such decisions,.... some need a precise braking control on treacherous extreme trails at low speed and rather light weight! Those BB-5's stop me in less than 50ft from 40mph,... measured and tested! That's better than most cars at that speed, and even some pedaled bicycles at only 15mph!!!

Braking isn't about "lockin' 'em up!",... it's about safe controlled stopping. Otherwise we'd jus drop an anchor, "pop a chute", or throw a pipe in the wheels! LoL! And when it comes to that truck,.... sometimes you jus lay it down, hoping you slide to stop while the bike slides into oblivion!!! And that would be THE SIDE of that truck,.... got no business being that close to the tail, no matter what brakes you got! Major problem with auto drivers too!!!!

 

[Chalo]

For anyone that thinks cable breaks are better than hydro please provide evidence

You're talking to someone who's been riding bikes seriously for thirty years, working on them professionally starting twenty-five years ago, and who has tried pretty much every style of bicycle brake. During that thirty year span, I've weighed from 220ish pounds to over 400. The latter was while I lived in very hilly Seattle (where my second e-bike weighed about 120 pounds with batteries and luggage). I have been obligated by circumstances to understand limitations of bicycle brakes that you will never confront in your life.

Any brakes that can tip up your bike on its front wheel are observably as strong as you can possibly use. Almost any kind of brake can in principle provide this much force-- some more easily than others, of course. But it's very easy to demonstrate that any of a bunch of different cable brakes meet this criterion. BB7s and linear-pulls are certainly among them.

I already explained to you why good rim brakes can absorb and dissipate more kinetic energy than disks. It's a simple matter of heat capacity, conductivity, mass, and surface area exposed to air. Instrumented testing in Germany has already shown that even normal rim brakes on average rims can handle more continuous braking power than all but the best discs. Make the rims unusually massive and there's no bicycle disc brake anywhere that can match them. And with a rim brake, you don't need nearly as much force at the pads for a given braking force, because the rotor (the rim) is so much bigger.

Your glowing discs example is a demonstration of how rim brakes are in some ways superior to bicycle discs. No rim ever gets nearly so hot as that, because even e-bike braking power levels can't possibly move enough energy to do it. Yet your discs were pushed right to their limits.

The organic pads on my first Hayes disc brake were burned right down to the backing plates in less than twenty miles of city commuting. The self-energizing cantilever brake that I used before then had worked without issues for thousands of miles. And it was just as strong as the 203mm disc, too. I kept the disc brake, switched to metallic pads, and got good service from it for many years. But really, the only thing the disc brake did better than the rim brake was that it didn't chew up the rim while riding in wet, gritty conditions.

It's okay to prefer hydraulic disc brakes because of how they feel. But that's all it is-- feel. It doesn't make them any stronger or any safer than cable discs or rim brakes. It's just like the accelerator pedals on "sporty" economy cars, which are designed to give a lot of throttle action with only a little push of the pedal. That doesn't make the engine any more powerful or the car any faster, but it creates a false impression of a powerful engine at the expense of controllability. Likewise, hydraulic discs on bicycles give the impression of great braking power because they're grabby at low lever effort-- but maximum instantaneous braking power is limited by the bike's weight distribution and surface traction, not the brake itself. As for maximum continuous braking power, that's where rim brakes beat discs.

 

[Chalo]

I currently have BB-5's now on my 29er,.... huge VAST improvement over the stock rim brakes the bike originally had, which were marginal at casual pedaling speed. With added weight and speeds up to 40mph, I can now stop safely in far less distance than bike did when stock!

Too bad you didn't try better rim brakes first. Good, competently set up linear pull brakes with Kool Stop pads will categorically outperform BB5 brakes while costing half as much. This is especially true with large diameter wheels like 29". When the wheel gets bigger, the rim brake does too... but the disc brake stays the same size and loses leverage.

I think that most of people's overestimation of bicycle disc brakes is due to never having tried making rim brakes deliver their potential.

 

[HY10]

The bbshd now has a disc on the front after the wheels needed replacement
With so many different types of pads now available for rim brakes the only difference I find is in the wet where the disc with a smaller area dries faster or maybe just stays dry