CUTE geared hub motors from bmsbattery/ecitypower

[Russell]

I spoke with the Ananda engineers today and was told the following but do not have first hand experience as all the motors I've used have all been with hall sensors:
- big motors start smootly from standing start without hall sensors.
- small motors are not so smooth without hall sensors from standing start.
- you lose some efficiency without hall sensors. Ananda engineer said 2-3%, another engineer said 5%.

I would say the difference in sensorless performance is between DIRECT DRIVE and FREEWHEELING GEARED motors rather than large and small, though that does go hand in hand. I have a controller from ecitypower/bmsbattery that can run sensored or sensorless however operation with a freewheeling geared motor is frustrating. A freewheeling geared motor position can not be found until power is applied to it so initial throttle-on from a stop has to be very gentle until the controller can see some back voltage and determine the proper timing to pulse the phases. Once under way the combination worked ok as long as power was applied but let the throttle go to rest and the sequence has to be found when the throttle is activated again. I couldn't ride more than a mile like that.

The reason I keep saying freewheeling is to differentiate the performance of a geared motor running sensorless which doesn't freewheel. At 3,000 miles the hall wiring was damaged on my Bafang QSWXB motor and one hall sensor became defective, it was at this point I disassembled the clutch and locked it up so it could not freewheel. ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10458&start=45#p212576 ) Now the motor provided back EMF just like a DD motor all of the time and it works great with the sensorless controller. All that is needed for a smooth launch is the slightest forward movement and once under way there is never any hesitation or "hammering".

My experience does make me wonder how the new crop of Bafangs without hall sensors such as the QSWXK and BPM are working for their owners and if they fully freewheel when not under power(????).

-R

 

[johnrobholmes]

The sensorless Shenzen controllers will hammer start the motors, so even if it freewheels it can jolt them to spin.

 

[Russell]

The sensorless Shenzen controllers will hammer start the motors, so even if it freewheels it can jolt them to spin.

That's how my sensorless controller worked when used on a freewheeling motor but it kinda sucks. Operation with the locked freewheel is sooooooooooooo much better!


-R

 

[danoulz]

My hub motor is a geared brush-less hall-sensor-less Suzhou Bafang (8-Fun) SWXK (latest model with side-entry cable instead of axle/spindle) 36V 250W 255RPM. It's laced into a 16" front Brompton rim (349mm ERTO).

I use a custom e-Crazyman (by Keywin Ge) 6-FETs controller with a 3-stage power switch (I think they are actually manufactured by Shenzhen Sucteam, but I can't say for sure). At the lowest power level, the thumb throttle action is obviously very smooth, no jerking, just a nice progressive acceleration. At the second and third levels, of course there is a bit more kick (torque), but otherwise it's smooth too.

Using the pedal assist sensor (cadence-only, not torque-activated), the power only kicks-in after at least one revolution and when a specific rotation rate is reached. The faster I pedal, the more power is fed to the motor...it's quite intuitive really: get to the bottom of a hill, drop a gear or two, up the cadence just like you would on a non-assisted bike, and you get rewarded with bionic legs It's pretty smooth, and it's definitely free-wheeling.

On a side-note: cadence feedback lacks the natural feel of torque-sensing technologies (such as the fantastic Panasonic true crank-mounted pedelec unit). I'm in the process of sourcing a crank torque-sensor (simple double circular array of rare magnets + dual sensor that detects torsional differential when force is applied to the pedals), but I'm not expecting anything super reliable or spectacular...it's mostly to satisfy my geeky curiosity

Cheers, Daniel

 

[Russell]

Perhaps the ecrazyman controller sensorless implementation is better, or there is some kind of design change to the exclusively sensorless Bafang motors which makes them work better without halls, I dunno. Since the only problems I've had so far with my small geared motors is with the halls and the associated internal wiring the idea of running sensorless is attractive to me. So far after 6 rides and 160 miles the JB Welded clutch in my Bafang is holding up but I'm still not overly confident in it for the long run.

-R

 

[lynchy]

I spoke with the Ananda engineers today and was told the following but do not have first hand experience as all the motors I've used have all been with hall sensors:
- big motors start smootly from standing start without hall sensors.
- small motors are not so smooth without hall sensors from standing start.
- you lose some efficiency without hall sensors. Ananda engineer said 2-3%, another engineer said 5%.

I would say the difference in sensorless performance is between DIRECT DRIVE and FREEWHEELING GEARED motors rather than large and small, though that does go hand in hand. I have a controller from ecitypower/bmsbattery that can run sensored or sensorless however operation with a freewheeling geared motor is frustrating. A freewheeling geared motor position can not be found until power is applied to it so initial throttle-on from a stop has to be very gentle until the controller can see some back voltage and determine the proper timing to pulse the phases. Once under way the combination worked ok as long as power was applied but let the throttle go to rest and the sequence has to be found when the throttle is activated again. I couldn't ride more than a mile like that.

The reason I keep saying freewheeling is to differentiate the performance of a geared motor running sensorless which doesn't freewheel. At 3,000 miles the hall wiring was damaged on my Bafang QSWXB motor and one hall sensor became defective, it was at this point I disassembled the clutch and locked it up so it could not freewheel. ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10458&start=45#p212576 ) Now the motor provided back EMF just like a DD motor all of the time and it works great with the sensorless controller. All that is needed for a smooth launch is the slightest forward movement and once under way there is never any hesitation or "hammering".

My experience does make me wonder how the new crop of Bafangs without hall sensors such as the QSWXK and BPM are working for their owners and if they fully freewheel when not under power(????).

-R

Russell,

I have a very limited experience of sensor less controllers but I will have soon as I'll have several models of the same controller both and without sensor for direct comparioson. I tried the new QSWXK motor without hall and it was both really smooth and very quiet. The climbers I tried were also without hall sensor and they were even smoother, more torquey and very quiet. I believe the comments that I said before may have not been as simple as big and small motors but it was what was briefly mentioned. Maybe he had meant small geared hub motor and big direct drive motor, I'm not sure. I've generally used geared hub motors but will pick up some bigger direct drive motors soon, to have a play with :wink:

I've been told that sensorless controllers are more difficult to implement and the programming is very critical to a good operation. Once I have a proper workshop and get myself a descent USB scope I can start to play with the controllers a lot more.

I have a real thirst for E Bike knowledge I was told by the Overseas Sales Manager in 1 of the biggest hub motor suppliers in China that he has never had a customer like me and my questions have driven him almost crazy I took it as a bit of a compliemt, don't think it was intended that way... :? I think he's used to people that are mostly interested in getting something that does the job at the right price.

Generally Chinese sales people do not like a lot of questions. Did you know that in the Chinese language the same word is used for both "Question" and "Problem", in Pinyin it is wenti. "Mei wenti" (mei means not) means no problem.... Says it all really So basically show me the money but keep your mouth shut

 

[drewdiller]

After long last, my hub finally showed up. I did eventually get a tracking number, and then, poof, it was on my doorstep the next day. Weird.

Can't afford to buy the rest of the components right now, the holiday season has my wallet looking a bit thin. Will buy a caliper, however, and report back on the accuracy of disc rotor mount hole spacing. Also want to weigh the accuracy of the claimed 6.6 lbs, feels heavier than that.

 

[ebikerider]

Hi,
I guess you were lucky. These people sell garbage - hear my story.
I communicated with this company through email and told them I need a 24V 20A LiFePO4 continuous discharge battery for my bike, a charger and a 500W controller. I paid $423 for it online through PayPal and was eagerly awaiting my new LiPo battery. It It took 8WEEKS to arrive - 4 weeks "processing" and 4 weeks "shipping". When I received the box, it had a 250W controller, not 500W. Pretty much useless controller for my purposes.
I emailed the guy and he agreed that it was his mistake and said he would send me another one - but it has been 3 months and no replacement came.
The charger stopped charging after TWO charges - next day, pretty much. It just puts out 19V and does not charge. I connected to the company through Skype and for half an hour SHOWED the guy on camera all the testing of the broken charger. He promised to send another one - and guess what, NOTHING CAME.
The battery burned out in 2 weeks. I used it on Izip electric bike, which still rides nicely with simple SLA that comes with it. But this company's battery is completely burned (see picture). Needless to say, they promised to send another one and then stopped answering my emails. It's been 3 months and my $423 IS GONE....
I thought I'd save a few bucks but I lost all the money. And have a pile of junk in my apartment.
DO NOT BUY FROM BMSbattery or your money will be wasted!
ebikerider

 

[Russell]

They now offer one model of the Cute motor (F&R) laced to a rim.

http://www.bmsbattery.com/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=161





-R

 

[The Stig]

I'm thinking of going dual 1.6kg cutes

Anybody know where I can get the 1.6kg cute hub motor with disc mount laced into a 24" rim?

bmsandbattery say they can sell the Q-85SX cute hub motor laced into 24" rims but they are on vacation till the 22nd of Feb.

The only concern I have is the drag these motors might have while not under power/freewheeling.

 

[Hyena]

I've been curious about running dual cutes too. They're certainly cheap enough to have a bash at it.
I assume now that they're selling rims and spokes and that on their spokes page it says "Free to do a whole E-Bike Hub Motor Kits" they lace them have them in various sizes and lace them for you ?

 

[drewdiller]

After two delays (one financial and another the sort of "oh, these don't plug into each other"), I finally got some connectors and put some new ends on various wires, and got the thing spinning.

All right, I didn't screw anything up! Time to lace this thing to a rim and see what happens.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

They are cute little buggers eh? Three and a half pounds is pretty light for even a 250 watt motor. I think one of those and some RC packs could make a kick ass setup for those that want to pedal, but just need a boost up a few hills. 3.5 pounds of motor, mabye 1.5 more of wire and controller, 5 pounds of lipoly,,,.

Put that all on a nice roadbike and the whole thing might still come in under 30 pounds. My commuter weighs 80-95 pounds depending on how much water I carry.

I am still intriged by the idea of a dual gearmotor full suspension dirtbike, but I'd want dual controllers, batteries, and throttles, for total controll over which wheel grabs when. Trials type riding at 1-3 mph would be the idea. Stock gearmotors may be geared too high for this though. Range of 1 mile would be fine with tiny lipoly batteries, have a snack, and quick charge the batteries while the motors cool.

that is basically what i am doing, except i have dd instead of geared

 

[Kevinator]

I managed to read through this whole thread and the "Cute" motor's small size makes them very appealing. I think I will have to get one or two of them to play with. Is bmsbattery/ecitypower the cheapest (...and only) place to get them from?

 

[drewdiller]

Heads up... a friend got one of these with 6bolt pattern, the center offset was 41.5mm so not 40mm standard and wouldn't take a generic 160mm disc. A good caliper goes a long way on the measurement side.

Maybe u should ask if they have the DISCs to go with these hubs, that would likely be the solution since they prob get the rotor from the same manu/vendor and it should be drilled to fit the hubs.

This may have been a QC issue and not the entire offerings... my sample units were without disc (i have disc version on order front and rear for 20").

-Mike

Finally able to weigh in on this one: I took the generic disc and torx mounting bolts off my existing bike. Everything mounted to my Cute hub just fine, horizontal location relative to my brake housing looked good. Threads are arguably a little tighter, so don't insert new bolts dry, they'd probably freeze in.

 

[DAND214]

Am I the only one here that has accually ran one of these CUTE things? I only have about 19 miles on it due to the snow and bitter cold here. The first ride was 7f and only about a mile, motor pulled pretty good for a small hub. I didn't have any meters at the time so it was just a test. Tuesday was the maden run to the bike path to a lake 7 miles away. I only had a speedo that day and was running 48v a 128mm rear hub laced in a 26" wheel. I think it was a heat wave 25f that day!! the top speed I did see was 26 mph going with the wind and pedaling moderatly. I fogot that I was also running one of the 6 fet controllers from BMSBATT which I moooded with 4110 fets and half soldered the shunt, I have used this controller stock on a dd hub in the summer and it cut out after about 5 miles. It was hard to tell if there was any heat generated at the controller as it is mounted under the rear rack and has great air, the hub was cool and the axles was just warm. Most of the ride home was at WOT and into the wind, top speed was 22 mph. When I got home I charged the pack and it took 5.6 ah to chrge it so about 2 miles an amp. Today I put my CA on the bike and road to our local DUNKIN Donuts just a couple miles though. the CA showed 21 w/mi with 30 amp peak and top speed of 20.8 on 36v. Not too bad compaired with my Bafang 8FUN hub which does 20 pedaling your butt off. I'm not a big fan of geared hubs due to the sound but this was not bad. I like the small size and light weight which will be the bike we put on back of the car when we GO to ride. So untill the heat comes I will ride this and wait to see if the heat destroys it. Most of my runs will be on 48v not 36 I turned it down a little cause it snowed here yesterday and I don't like what's under the snow at times cause you don't see it till it's too late.
As for the service from BMSBATTERY I go alone with most of the complaints I have read, they are slow and they have no clue what they are selling!
Hope to hear from others soon on their CUTE hubs!
Dan

 

[drewdiller]

Am I the only one here that has accually ran one of these CUTE things?

Probably. I'm eager to get mine going, this is my first e-bike setup.

I know what you mean about the snow -- I don't like to ride in powder that's deeper than 2 or 3 inches. Tires make a fun sound in it, but It visually smooths out obstacles too much.

Almost there, I'm taking the hub to a wheel builder tomorrow...

 

[GrayKard]

Am I the only one here that has accually ran one of these CUTE things?

I just got my cute hubs back from wheel building at the LBS. I've been so busy with work though that I haven't even had time to put the new inner tubes and tires on them

I may have time tomorrow to do that and get everything zip tied and velcored on the bike for a quick test run. I doubt though that I'll have it ready to do my commute until sometime next week. The weather is too messy right now to put the bike on the road without really having it waterproof.

Gary

 

[cell_man]

Guys,

I have a few of the Cute motors here that are looking for new homes. They were just samples that I ordered but I will be placing an order in a few weeks after the Chinese New Year Holidays. I'll see what I've got and put a for sale thread up but I have both 108 and 128 motors. Sorry they don't have imaginary weights or power figures They're rated 250W like all the 1s that leave the Ananda factory and the lightest is 2.05kg not 1.6....

My good mate Lynchy posted the pics earlier :wink:

 

[evblazer]

Guys,

I have a few of the Cute motors here that are looking for new homes. They were just samples that I ordered but I will be placing an order in a few weeks after the Chinese New Year Holidays. I'll see what I've got and put a for sale thread up but I have both 108 and 128 motors. Sorry they don't have imaginary weights or power figures They're rated 250W like all the 1s that leave the Ananda factory and the lightest is 2.05kg not 1.6....

My good mate Lynchy posted the pics earlier :wink:

Great now I gotta check the for sale section every 5 minutes because the below is kinda maybe exactly what I want 2 packs of turnigy lipoly with the per cell monitoring screens with LV cutout/alarm and cell chargers all from hobby king (all backordered :lol.

dogman wrote:
They are cute little buggers eh? Three and a half pounds is pretty light for even a 250 watt motor. I think one of those and some RC packs could make a kick ass setup for those that want to pedal, but just need a boost up a few hills. 3.5 pounds of motor, mabye 1.5 more of wire and controller, 5 pounds of lipoly,,,.

 

[Kevinator]

Guys,

I have a few of the Cute motors here that are looking for new homes. They were just samples that I ordered but I will be placing an order in a few weeks after the Chinese New Year Holidays. I'll see what I've got and put a for sale thread up but I have both 108 and 128 motors. Sorry they don't have imaginary weights or power figures They're rated 250W like all the 1s that leave the Ananda factory and the lightest is 2.05kg not 1.6....

My good mate Lynchy posted the pics earlier :wink:

PM me if you and lynchy decide to start selling them. I'm looking to get 1 or 2 of the #85 rear motors, 2 controllers, maybe 5 sets of brake levers, 5 pedelec sensors, 5 sets of ergo throttles, a battery. Maybe we could work something out for a discount since i've got plenty of time on my hands at the moment, wheel building tools, several styles of bikes to work with, and a crappy video camera to document it all Looks like I

I can't wait to compare the "cute" motor's weight and handling compared with my cyclone motor. Unfortunately with the chinese new year holidays coming up, bmsbattery/ecitypower won't be shipping anything until the last week of feb.


Here's my current project:



More info at:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?613851-New-Dahon-Boardwalk-owner!&p=10245572#post10245572

 

[cell_man]

Hi Kevin,

I've only had the 85mm wide motor for front wheel installation not rear. They are not really 85mm, more like 90mm.

I'll go through what I've got and get something posted soon.

 

[DAND214]

I got in another 8 miles today! Another warm day, only feezing but little wind. Today was on 48v and top speed was just over 25 mph and I used 3.5 ah in 8 miles and 1/4 of it was slow due to ice prints in the snow, peak amps was 28 on the Ca, not too bad. The bad part was the snow and frozen foot prints on the bike paths not to mention the frozen bike tracks that steer you where you don't want to go. So far the motor seems to be pretty good, I know that Cell-man says they are only 250w but it runns better than my bafang does and quieter. I know BMSBATT lists other ratings and on my hubs they are listed as 36v 500w for a 20" wheel but I'm running 48v in a 26" wheel. after the run I discharged the pack and total discharge was 13.5 ah on the pack which is rated at 15ah. The controller was cold and the hub was just warm, axle too. Hope you guys get your stuff running before I wear mine out!? :lol:
Dan

 

[Hyena]

Thanks for the info Dan, thats quite impressive performance from the little fellas. Did you keep an eye on the CA while riding ? Do you know what sort of currents the thing was sustaining during constant WOT use ? I'm guessing they wouldn't take >1000W for long. Have you used any direct drive hubs to compare the performance with ?

Cell_man, what sort of speed where you getting out of the little front motors ? I'll grab one off you if you have spare.

 

[cell_man]

The little 85QX motor I have are 24V and running them at 36V I was getting arount 32-34kph or maybe a touch more with a better battery. Best to use a 15A current limit in this configuration and you are still keeping things quite reasonable. This is still around 500W and with a 25A controller they will pull pretty much the full available amps. Even the Ananda R&D Engineer said that running them overvolts with a 15A current limit is OK but still not really recommended.

I will try to get a couple in a bike and see how they perform. I've only used them as a single front mounted installation so far.

I haven't got so many here but can place an order at the end of the month if there's enough interest. I only bought a few samples so didn't get them at the lowest price but I'll see what I can do