Email notifications - possibly fixed - check my work

neptronix

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Howdy!

I found some issues with our email configuration for ES.
Correcting them may fix our email notifications issues, but it could take a few days to improve.

Lemme know if you start getting the emails you were expecting, and how often, over the next week or so.
 
Ok, per a mail tester i use for other systems, our mail delivery should be close to perfect.

The only reason our mail delivery doesn't have a perfect score:
- The email is HTML
- There isn't an unsubscribe link ( there actually is, it's just called something else )

1701878650864.png

I'm starting to get notifications to my address at gmail. So i'm thinking that our email reputation is improving faster than expected. How are notifications on your end?
 
I will keep an eye out, but I think an issue is going to be that if ES thinks it has sent a notification when it hasn't for some old thread....and we've never seen it, or checked back in on that thread, it's not going to send another notification email.

Do we need to consider a big 'reset' of notifications to fix this?

Cheers
 
I will keep an eye out, but I think an issue is going to be that if ES thinks it has sent a notification when it hasn't for some old thread....and we've never seen it, or checked back in on that thread, it's not going to send another notification email.

You could possibly be correct. The notifications i did receive were only for recent threads.

Here are the current system-level settings, for the public's scrutiny.

1701988693880.png


These are defaults for new users. It should be that the user is asked for whatever their preference is during signup.


1701989309345.png



You may want to validate your notification settings, because they may have been altered during the conversion.
You can do that here: https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/account/preferences

Here are my settings on that screen ( yeah, i don't like being emailed ):

1701989499555.png



@Cowardlyduck and others who aren't getting the notifications you expect, can i get a few of you to check the above settings and confirm you have 'automatically watch content you interact with... and receive email notifications?'

Just trying to rule the easy things out before we take more drastic measures.


Do we need to consider a big 'reset' of notifications to fix this?

Will consider surgery once more conservative treatment options have failed. :geek:
 
Thanks for confirming - anyone else also have similar settings?
 
On my side, i did a test across a few email providers:
Microsoft, Gmail, and Fastmail

All had perfect delivery for a test message.
If others have the same maxed out settings AND aren't getting notifications, then i'm about 99.5% sure Xenforo is to blame.
 
Any of these notifications sitting in your spam folder, by chance? ( we had 1 member report this )
 
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Went to Preferences. Checked all the email boxes. Also clicked on the Watch Box at the top of the thread. If someone reply's to this thread? Think I should receive a email. This is exciting! Going to my Thunderbird program to wait and see if I receive a email. I have a big computer. I am so smart that I don't need a smart phone.

Think email notifications are important. If someone asks a question or is interested in something they should receive a email even if it takes years for someone to reply to a thread. No one sees the Bell Alerts if they don't log into endless-sphere.com.
 
Think email notifications are important. If someone asks a question or is interested in something they should receive a email even if it takes years for someone to reply to a thread. No one sees the Bell Alerts if they don't log into endless-sphere.com.
100% This is what I think also. Even if we think it works and site visits are up...the kind of person that provides meaningful input on this site doesn't have time to login just to check for a bell notification.

Is there any way the forum can detect if someone has clicked the link from an email notification? Maybe we could consider a single reminder email for watched threads that could be sent for those who haven't clicked the link in the emails after 6 months?

Cheers
 
Is there any way the forum can detect if someone has clicked the link from an email notification? Maybe we could consider a single reminder email for watched threads that could be sent for those who haven't clicked the link in the emails after 6 months?

That's actually how Xenforo should work out of the box 😅

Welp, i think we ruled all the easy stuff out.. will updates this thread when we have a fix.
 
OK, we did some reading. Here's a thread explaining how notifications work out of the box:
XF 2.0 - watch forum threads or messages confusion

The confusion comes from: if you don't click on the link in the notification, you effectively get unsubscribed from email alerts from the thread you follow, instead of getting a notification for every single reply, regardless of whether you clicked the link or not ( this was PHPBB's behavior ).

Xenforo really wants you to use the notification bell icon as your primary source of notifications, which is good, because this dramatically cuts our email sending here and also prevents the user from getting flooded with email.

But, coming from other forum systems, i see how this seems broken.
The worst part is that a new user may get the impression that our forum is a lot less active than it actually is, because they expect to be consistently hounded via email about replies by default.

But for some people, the more frequent emails is a negative in itself.

This plugin seems like it would give us back the PHPBB behavior, and alert users on every reply:
Persistent Alerts


So here's what i'm thinking:

1) We install this 'Persistent alerts' plugin, but the PHPBB-like behavior is left off by default keep the low distraction defaults.

2) In the user's options screen, they could switch to the PHPBB-like behavior if desired:

1702314741314.png
3) We write some notes about this in the forum FAQ, new user signup information, etc, so it's very clear to new people that they have this option if they want it.

4) At some point we do an experiment, where we make the PHPBB-like behavior the default for new users, to see if this actually improves our new user retention rate + lowers the incidence of new users posting a question, then never returning to read the answer. If we see at least a 10% improvement, we make this the new default.


What are your thoughts, my dudes?
 
Maybe the setting for constant predictable should be on for new users, IE other way around.
( personally, i dislike this, i like opt in to email, not a worsening of the dumpster fire that is my email inbox, which happens every time i sign up for something )

Interested in hearing your thoughts.
 
FWIW, if they don't already, email notifications for *everything* should default to "on" at signup (and for people that haven't visited the forum and updated anything on their profile since the XF switchover, those should be switched to "on" if they are not already).

Xenforo really wants you to use the notification bell icon as your primary source of notifications, which is good, because this dramatically cuts our email sending here and also prevents the user from getting flooded with email.
The question I would ask is: Is this what *users* want; is it how most people "work"? If it's not, it is not the most-helpful behavior. ;) (I don't know what most people would want or do, but I can guess that this is not it)

Further thoughts progressing from that:

If a user does not come to the forum they will never see the bell or any other in-forum notification.

If a user does not pay attention to icons on a screen but expects to be notified in words in some large obvious way, the tiny little bell doesn't work even if they do come to the forum.

If a user is notified thru an external system in a way that they do check (which we can't know but must assume they will if they provided that as contact method), they should then come to the forum to check.


One option rather than constant emails about every thread / etc is a "bundle" notification, like a single daily summary email, that either includes links to each thread / message / etc that they're subscribed to, or has a single link that takes them to the alerts page
so that they can see all the items that they have not read.

BTW, that page itself could use some better contrast between unread and read items.

Even better is to put all the unread items at the top, even for things that are older than some of the read items.




I realize that most designers of any system (including Xenforo itself) have a way they want things to work, and then expect users of the system to simply adapt to however the designer feels they should work, but this is not how most people work, for the most part--people do what they do, the way they feel like, and often don't or won't and sometimes can't adapt to some arbitrarily chosen way of doing something...so it usually works better to use the most commonly-trained-into-people ways of working, or the most obvious ways of working that they can figure out more easily.

In situations where there aren't any viable choices, many people will adapt because it's that or nothing...but if they don't *have* to do it, they often won't. :(




Whether the bell is the answer to that in this case I couldn't say, but it does have functional drawbacks.

One of them is that bell notifications aren't persistent. If you click the little Alerts bell icon to see what's there, it automatically clears the bell, and wont' show it again until something changes, *even if you did not yet view any of the notifications*.

This is confusing and unhelpful, because for instance if you have so many new things they dont' fit in the short list the icon presents when clicked, but you do clear that list, you still have stuff that's unread you won't know exists since the bell doesn't stay "lit up" to indicate this.

If I were to change the behavior of this, I would leave it lit until all of the new stuff has been marked read *by the user*, either with the mark-all-read function, or by visiting the Show All page
and visiting each individual link, etc.



3) We write some notes about this in the forum FAQ, new user signup information, etc, so it's very clear to new people that they have this option if they want it.
The cynical view from a few decades of experience with people:

I think you probably know by now that no one reads any of that stuff. ;) (often enough they dont' even read the list of forums to see where to post, and just post in Forum Rules and Features because it's the first one in the list, or at least the first that lets them post in it).

If it were info that people were forced to actually read and be quizzed on, requiring 100% correct answers, before they could post on the forum, then there is at least a large chance they'd read it--but it's not likely most people would take a test to be able to post here, and would just go somewhere else (since many can't be bothered to even answer questions about their problem that will help us help them fix it :roll: ).

So there's not really any good way to actually make it clear to everyone (either new or existing), that these options exist. If they prefer some other method than whatever the default is, and are the somewhat rare type of person that actually checks for what options they might have, or that reads signup info, etc., they'll find out and be able to use whatever options there are.

Not much any of us can do about that but put the info out there for them. ;)





4) At some point we do an experiment, where we make the PHPBB-like behavior the default for new users, to see if this actually improves our new user retention rate + lowers the incidence of new users posting a question, then never returning to read the answer. If we see at least a 10% improvement, we make this the new default.

Of the presented options, this one is likely the most effective for that stated purpose. Those that get bothered by too many emails can hunt down the options to change that (or click whatever link is in each email to get to their UCP page for that). (something more likely to happen than the other way around, where people not getting notifications would come back to figure out why).


But I would still put the info in the faq and signup info. ;)
 
Maybe the setting for constant predictable should be on for new users, IE other way around.
( personally, i dislike this, i like opt in to email, not a worsening of the dumpster fire that is my email inbox, which happens every time i sign up for something )

Interested in hearing your thoughts.
While I agree about the email problem, it's simple to unsubscribe from emails with a link in any email. As long as this is a simple painless process I don't mind it.

Pages that take me to other pages and ask for surveys about why I want to stop getting them, etc., those I don't like and usually block not just the email, but the entire domain in all of my adblockers, etc, so I cannot accidentally visit the site again and nothing from them can ever appear on my screen. ;)

(I prefer to be asked at signup or registration whether I want to be notified of various things, so I can choose right then, but most people do not want to be bothered with options and just want to get right into whatever they came to a site for--if a list of options *is* presented they'll just leave it as-is and click OK or submit, even if one of the options says something ridiculous like "please uncheck this option to avoid us charging your bank account for one million quatloos :lol: ).


But I do think that for new users, it's going to be better to "overnotify" them than undernotify, as long as there's an easy and clear way for them to change it.

If they have to deliberately choose to be notified of replies / etc to their posts, they may not remember to come back, or they may assume (as I would) that no one has anything to say to them.

There are threads around here where someone comes back months (in a few cases years) later to reply, and actually say taht they didn't get any notifications (implying they would have come back before if they had). Why they didn't get notifications could be the forum system or their provider or anywhere in between, but...they didn't get one. ;)



If it were my choice, I would also send a "poke" out after say, half a year, if a user has not visited the forum in that time, perhaps asking if they're still interested in us, or still have a problem to solve, etc., and if they don't want to hear from us again, simply click the unsubscribe link. Otherwise it'll re-send the poke every half year (just one) to remind them.
 
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Quite a diatribe so i'm gonna keep my thoughts short.

'i posted a thread there once but didn't get an email to notify me' is a real problem at ES, and the reason is probably goofy notification logic.

Real world example:
You post to the site the first time, you get a notification about a single reply, 4 other people reply, but you don't get notifications about subsequent replies. Now, if you got notifications about all 5 replies, you'd be a lot more likely to check the website again, no?

The real problem with the goofy email thread notification logic is that it seems broken. It can mislead new users unaware of how Xenforo forums work into thinking they didn't get a reply.. which is bad.

For new users, we currently we have an instructional signup email, however, it comes after the user is registered and starts using the forum. So it is easy to accidentally ignore, and is possibly part of the cause of AW's cynical view :mrgreen:.

There are ways to force new users to view a rules / info post at signup, then click a button, which means there is probably a way to prompt them to change their email notification preferences at signup (y).

If we can get the above working, i think it is reasonable to set the forum up like this:

1. For new users, email notifications default to predictably loud ( Persistent notifications: on AKA the way PHPBB worked )
2. For existing users, they can turn it on manually if they want. ( we'd turn it on for you, but there's complications enabling a ton of users at once )
3. After signup, you are asked to set your email preferences and accept the rules. This will show that we have pretty loud notification settings, and give the user like me, who totally hates being emailed, a chance to intervene.

Seems like a reasonable compromise, hm?
 
So it is easy to accidentally ignore, and is possibly part of the cause of AW's cynical view :mrgreen:.
No, my cynical view is based on many years of dealing with poor UI design and even poorer process thinking-out. ;)

This stuff is just one more grain of sugar in the icing on the cake that is a lie. :lol:


There are ways to force new users to view a rules / info post at signup, then click a button, which means there is probably a way to prompt them to change their email notification preferences at signup (y).

As the old saying goes...you can stick words in front of someone's face, but it's really hard to force them to actually read them. :lol:

But it's worth a try. ;)


If we can get the above working, i think it is reasonable to set the forum up like this:

1. For new users, email notifications default to loud ( Persistent notifications: on )
2. For existing users, they can turn it on manually if they want.
3. After signup, you are asked to set your email preferences and accept the rules. This will show that we have pretty loud notification settings, and give the user like me, who totally hates being emailed, a chance to intervene.

Seems like a reasonable compromise, hm?
Sure.

The idea is to get people coming back, right? So...whatever makes them more likely to do that is what we want?
 
The idea is to get people coming back, right? So...whatever makes them more likely to do that is what we want?

Yeah, we just want to be as respectful about it as possible. Hence we need to make it really apparent and easy to change the defaults.
 
TLDR, but I would say that this forum has 'seemed' to be on the decline since about 2017/2018. This could just be my perception, but I've seen others reflect similarly.
So with that in mind, I think a little more spammy notifications wouldn't hurt. :)

Any I really like your original suggestion Nep! I will certainly use that feature!

Cheers
 
OK..

Email notifications fix is in progress and may take a week or two. It's way more complex than we thought.

We also notice that the bell icon also has some funny behavior that causes it to skip notifications; that behavior is changeable and improvable too. That will be fixed as well.
 
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Unsure where this is at currently, however I just discovered another missing notification....this time it was this thread:
I never received any notification for the reply on the 28th, despite being subscribed to notifications on the thread.

Cheers
 
crosslinking this post over here
to this thread since it's speciificaly for the email notification stuff.



Also, as I made that post yesterday I reenabled all the email notifications in my UCP. I expected to see a lot of them, as I have a lot of threads I've replied to (and thus should be subscribed to / watching), that got replies between then and now. But these are the only ones that I got notifications for:
(was sent two notifications, one for each reply after mine)



Antoher thread from the mod forum got three notifications for three replies


Some of the ones I didn't get notifiactions for:
There are some others before that last one but I am not *certain* they were from before I changed the email notification options in UCP.
 
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