My excellent adventure through some battery builds

john61ct said:
source of 21 (!) different colour wires?

This is actually fairly common. all you need is many conductor cable. For example 25 pair phone cable will have 50 unique wire colors. I bought some 24 conductor cable a good while ago on ebay and that's what I used for these packs. Later I'll be building a 32S LION pack, might need to find something like this 30 conductor cable...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpha-5100-30-30-Conductor-24-Gauge-Shielded-Cable-PER-FOOT-30C-24AWG/264270878590?epid=3031384803&hash=item3d87c5977e:g:kyMAAOSwZDFcp5dH:sc:USPSFirstClass!80021!US!-1
 
john61ct said:
source of 21 (!) different colour wires?

Break down old equipment, traffic lights that give me a ticket to arcade machines end of life I've had a nice variety of smaller gauge wires and I tend to buy some silicone or Teflon coated for power handling on my ride but I've got a stash of all sorts, scrapped most of the junky stuff when the price of copper was high.

I squirrelled away quite a few laptop cells too I got more than I need ive been planning on using them somehow but I got to face it I'm a mild horder but only in my shed and spare room and they still remain functional areas.
 
Yah never mind need production quantities, not wanting to scrounge, hoping to get one lot of 100' rolls

will google when the time comes
 
Ianhill said:
john61ct said:
source of 21 (!) different colour wires?

Break down old equipment, traffic lights that give me a ticket to arcade machines end of life I've had a nice variety of smaller gauge wires and I tend to buy some silicone or Teflon coated for power handling on my ride but I've got a stash of all sorts, scrapped most of the junky stuff when the price of copper was high.

I squirrelled away quite a few laptop cells too I got more than I need ive been planning on using them somehow but I got to face it I'm a mild horder but only in my shed and spare room and they still remain functional areas.

I'm like you, I don't do large production quantities of anything. I scrounge quite a lot. Saves me a lot of money! Old PC boards are an excellent source of caps and transistors and what not. A cable with 24 colors of wires in it...why would I want to pay out at a premium price when I can scrounge it for next to nothing?
 
All 3 packs are closed up now. I've ordered some .5mm glass fiber epoxy sheet, but it's not here yet. A layer will go between each sub-pack and of course around all 3 packs. While I'm waiting, I'll add balance connectors.

20S%20mudworm%20sub-packs%208.jpg
 
john61ct said:
Yah never mind need production quantities, not wanting to scrounge, hoping to get one lot of 100' rolls

will google when the time comes

I used to work in a panel wiring shop and rather than get grouped cables pre sleeved we would use individual wires make the loom up and use braided sleeving to make it smart we only really need a grouped pairs in insulated sleeving with earth foil for sending data amongst Ac power transfer.

Sounds like that ain't gonna be cheap 100 rolls what u got few thousands to make ?
 
Ianhill said:
john61ct said:
Yah never mind need production quantities, not wanting to scrounge, hoping to get one lot of 100' rolls

will google when the time comes

I used to work in a panel wiring shop and rather than get grouped cables pre sleeved we would use individual wires make the loom up and use braided sleeving to make it smart we only really need a grouped pairs in insulated sleeving with earth foil for sending data amongst Ac power transfer.

Sounds like that ain't gonna be cheap 100 rolls what u got few thousands to make ?

Cable comes in enormous spools and in any conductor count you want. It won't be hard at all to find cable with the number of conductors he needs in what ever length he needs.
 
I've been using these chines probes for a good while and there has not been a moment that I have NOT hated them. What's more I paid $60 for them. I don't know what others use, but these chinese ones are horrible crap. The probe tips are shit and break off. The handle is low temp plastic and melts. I have 5 layers of heat shrink on mine. They get too hot to hold onto after 20 minutes of use. The wires are too thin and get hot. The original lugs on the wires were garbage. That was the first thing I replaced with much better screw lugs. The probe tips are held in place with a screw. They come loose or slowly migrate together and touch...assuming they don't break off!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HB-71A-Battery-Spot-Welding-Pen-For-709A-709AD-Series-Spot-Welder-Machine-1200A/382938217326?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D60042%26meid%3D2ec5572d20bc4d23946ac4dbba41eda8%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D383056245686%26itm%3D382938217326%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I've been hunting around for anything less horrible and much to my surprise I found these. They cost half as much and every aspect of them is far superior. They arrived yesterday so they have zero use yet, but I'm going to say there is no way they are remotely as bad as my old welding probes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spot-Welder-Copper-Handheld-Spot-Welding-Pen-Hole-Terminal-Connector-DIY-Set/283434170409?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=584458606648&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Right off the bat you can see the wires are way thicker and the new wires are 3" longer too.

Spot%20welder%20handles%201.jpg


Much better probe tips that can be resharpened. I'll need to add some heat shrink around the brass nuts so they can't touch accidentally, but that's minor. You can see the probe tips starting to move together on the old probes. From time to time I have to loosen the screws, reposition the tips and then get back to welding. They never stay parallel and will eventually touch and short together...or break off.

Spot%20welder%20handles%202.jpg


I replaced the factory screw lugs after 5 minutes of use on the old probes. As you can see the new ones have heavy duty copper screw lugs and much thicker wire. The copper lugs will need some added heat shrink so they can't accidentally short together.

Spot%20welder%20handles%203.jpg


We'll see...maybe they won't get hot since there is so much more copper and less resistance here. I might not need but one layer of heat shrink like they have now. The old ones, that lower section where you hold the welding probes is also where the 2 probes fit up inside the plastic body. It's much too hot to hold on to after 10-20 minutes of use. I covered it in 5 layers of heat shrink.

Spot%20welder%20handles%204.jpg
 
What do you use?

I currently have a Sunnko 788H. It's OK. Maybe the new probes will make it really good. All these chinese spot welders are just a step down transformer with a little added electronics so the AC input gets pulsed. This adjusts on time vs off time do produce changing duty cycles and that creates more or less current control. The metal box could be 1/3 as big and everything would still fit inside. There's a circuit board on the back side of the front bezel.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunkko-788H-Battery-Spot-Welder-Pulse-Welding-18650-Battery-Charger-US-Free-Ship/174014533745?epid=16006465630&hash=item2884131071:g:UnQAAOSwZbFdaf4S

This has a bigger transformer most likely so it can deliver more current, but is otherwise no different than what I have now. I'm tempted to buy one just to see if it's worth it or not. I bet the case is just a big empty shell that's 20% filled.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pulse-Spot-Welder-Welding-Soldering-Machine-18650-Battery-Packs-110V-3KW/254263473670?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D60042%26meid%3D2fc912402bd24c1ca94e3c5325adf3ba%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D174014533745%26itm%3D254263473670%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
 
I have a bunch of old 18650's and tried to use the new welding pens.
They don't get hot like the Chinese ones do, but they also don't make very good spot welds either.

I have purchased a kweld. I'm not particularly thrilled with the welder I have now. It works, but not for more than .2mm nickel and that is at max settings. I lots of LIPO packs I can use to power the kweld in parallel with the super cap module I bought.
 
I posted a few days ago that I had bought a K-weld spot welder. It arrived yesterday so I started assembling the welder immediately.

I got a super cap board as well so I can run from a PSU instead of LIPO packs. I have a 12v, 17a Meanwell PSU just sitting on the shelf so it was an obvious choice for the welder.

I got the clear plastic cases for both modules.

First a few pics of welder. The kit comes in lots of good quality zip lock bags and was really well packaged for shipment.

Attention to detail is generally very good.

The welder board is nicely made and what I got has all the latest fixes that have been discovered since these spot welders were first made.

K-Weld%201.jpg


This is well published that the welder uses an STM32 for control.

K-Weld%202.jpg


K-Weld%203.jpg


The mosfets and busses are nicely done.

K-Weld%204.jpg


K-Weld%205.jpg


The super cap box is pretty nice and all of it interlocks together.

K-Weld%206.jpg


K-Weld%207.jpg


The welder case is not great IMHO. You need to super glue it together. The board mounts to the base via 4 screws and stand-offs. Otherwise the entire shell just falls apart if it's not glued together. Careful gluing is required! After gluing, the entire top of the case comes off the bottom as a single piece.

K-Weld%208.jpg


The fully assembled welder on my PSU. I think I will get rid of the longer wires and work out how to mount the bullets from the super cap module into the case wall. That will let me plug in the welder module directly into the wall of the super cap module which will make the whole welder a good bit more compact.

K-Weld%2014.jpg



My changes done so far: (Things I wish the welder had in it already)

1. The 8 awg cables between the super cap board and the welder are about 6" long. They bolt down to both boards. I won't be using the welder day in and day out so there are times when I'll stick it on the shelf for a while. I'll need to take it apart for storage. I cut the wires at the welder screw lugs. I then soldered 8mm bullets to the screw lugs. This lets me disconnect the super cap module from the welder module.

K-Weld%209.jpg


K-Weld%2011.jpg


2. The foot switch wires end at a screw terminal block on the welder board. Again...I'll need to take things apart for storage. I used a 4 pin JST connector and used 2 pins in parallel for each wire from the foot switch. There's no real current load here. 2 pins each is just for long term reliability.

K-Weld%2010.jpg


This is the connector on the foot switch.

K-Weld%2012.jpg


3. I haven't done it yet, but I'm going to add 8mm bullets at the welding cables so they can be disconnected from the welder module. I may also make up added sections of cable so the welding pen cable lengths can be a bit longer.



By default the energy setting was at 10 juels. This was a lot better than my Chinese welder and the welds were a better. They were still fairly weak and I could pull of the nickel strip from the 18650 without a lot of trouble. I'm using .2mm. I kept playing with the energy setting to see what would happen. 80 juels was too much and blew a hole through the cell. I then tried 70 juels which was better, but it still compromised the nickel strip. 60 juels however was just right. What you are seeing below is 3 welds at 70 and the right most one is at 60. AT 70 juels, the nickel strip has spots blown through it, but the weld is very strong. 60 made a great weld that did not blow through the nickel strip. I needed pliers to tear off the strip from the cell.

70%2070%2070%20and%2060%20juell%20welds..jpg


K-Weld%2013.jpg




I did run into a couple of complications:

1. The super caps will charge up at 500 amps if you let them. I needed to limit current draw from my PSU so it wouldn't over load and shut off. This is something that I think should be an option for the kit. A precharge board between the power source and the super cap module so you can charge the caps gracefully.

2. The super cap board has no way to discharge gracefully. A precharge board could also incorporate a large resitor that can discharge the capacitors gracefully. An accidental short across the power wires would probably blow the connectors off. Whatever metal thing they shorted across would also be badly pitted or destroyed.

3. While they are charging, the super caps get pretty hot and you will want to add a fan on top of them to keep them cool. This needs to be part of the super cap modules. They get far too warm! I scrounged a 2.5" 3 wire PC fan and that worked nicely.

4. My PSU delivers 17 amps. More than that and it detects an over load and shuts off to protect itself. I made up a bank of 8 3 ohm resistors in parallel to limit current to the super caps. It took 20 minutes to charge them at this current rate. Of course these caps are 310 farads each and you have 2 in parallel and 3 in series. It's going to take a good while to charge that much capacitance.

5. Something that isn't clear is the operating voltage. you have 3 super caps in series or 2.7v x 3 = 8.1v. However in the manual it says nothing about the super cap max voltage. The manual says 30v max. Surely this is not good for the caps to run them at higher than their rated voltage! I turned down my Meanwell PSU as low as it will go.

6. There is no way to turn off or disable the welder. About all I can do is unplug the foot pedal. Be careful as you have crazy amounts of current at the welding pens and they weld just about anything.

I did something like 20 or 30 welds on junk cells tonight. The welding pens never got slightly warm. Getting the welder calibrated is very easy. In settings I made 2 changes. I had to set battery voltage and I set current from 800 to 900 amps. Other than that the welder worked flawlessly and required no other set up.

After this initial bit of use, I'm going to take apart the covering on those 3 20S packs I just made and reweld them with the K-Weld. It did a far better job! I'm pretty happy with the weld results. The cells do not get hot at all while being welded and the weld spots are very strong. At $400, it''s not cheap, but the weld quality is very good and highly controllable. To me it was a worthwhile purchase. It will get used quite a lot in the next few months.
 
ElectricGod said:
1. The super caps will charge up at 500 amps if you let them. I needed to limit current draw from my PSU so it wouldn't over load and shut off. This is something that I think should be an option for the kit. A precharge board between the power source and the super cap module so you can charge the caps gracefully.

2. The super cap board has no way to discharge gracefully. A precharge board could also incorporate a large resitor that can discharge the capacitors gracefully.
I would be **very** interested to learn how to do this, especially a if the current could be limited while maintaining voltage the same on both sides.

 
Thanks for posting those details, EG. The kWeld can use an input of 3V-30V, but the max input for the kCap is 8.2V, which the designer determined in his humble opinion is the optimum balance between volts and the amps/timing.

Of course the kWeld still works with a 12V car battery, or a high-amp 3S LiPo, which seem to be popular.
 
john61ct said:
ElectricGod said:
1. The super caps will charge up at 500 amps if you let them. I needed to limit current draw from my PSU so it wouldn't over load and shut off. This is something that I think should be an option for the kit. A precharge board between the power source and the super cap module so you can charge the caps gracefully.

2. The super cap board has no way to discharge gracefully. A precharge board could also incorporate a large resitor that can discharge the capacitors gracefully.
I would be **very** interested to learn how to do this, especially a if the current could be limited while maintaining voltage the same on both sides.

I've worked out a super simple schematic. I use a PSU, not LIPO packs so my switches don't need but 20A contacts.

Things you need:
16 3 ohm, 10 watt resistors.
1 on-off-on 20a SPDT rocker switch
1 on-off 20a SPDT rocker switch
12 awg wire

The resistors will be made into a bank of 12 parallel resistors for precharge. This will give you around 12-14 amps...the limit of my Meanwell PSU.
The other 4 will be in parallel and be used for discharge.

The 3 position rocker switch has a center position that disconnects the common leg fron both of the other legs. This effectively is the OFF position and disconnects the PSU from the super cap bank. I'm using position 1 for precharging and position 2 for connecting the psu direct to the super caps. I may never use this position since 12 resistors in parallel is at the current limits of my PSU already. I have the other position in case I scrounge a more powerful PSU. AS is, the caps charge to full in a few minutes through the resistor bank.

The 2 position rocker switch allows the 4 resistors to make a short across the 2 capacitor poles for discharging. Worse case, if you weer to leave this switch on, you just draw a bit more current from the PSU and caps never stay charged.

I'm considering getting a second super cap board and running 2 in series. 8.1 volts is not something a 12v PSU will adjust down to. I can get to 9v...which is still too high. A second module will let me run at 16.2v which is less than the maximum voltage of the PSU. Running the super caps at too high a voltage makes them get hot and will eventually ruin them. Unlike electrolytic caps, blow up a super cap and they spray crap all over the place. They release some wicked smelling chemicals that burn your eyes and nose. Whatever those chemicals are, I 'm sure they are no good for humans!

I've purchased 3 more of the Maxwell 310 farad caps. Something I noticed is that it doesn't take long before constant welding over takes super cap capacity. Then I need to stop, let them get charged again before I can continue. After I put 3 more in parallel, I'll have a better feel for what that really gets me. The caps are $17 each on Mouser...not really cheap...but a lot cheaper than buying more complete boards. I have enough current from 2 caps in parallel to do really solid welds. It's the amount of capacity that's the issue. Of course a higher amperage PSU will help that too. Adding more caps to the board is super easy. Just extend the solder connections with a couple of strands of solid 12 awg copper wire scrounged from romex.

If this works out like I think, I'll get more super caps and also a second super cap board. 4 caps in parallel on each board will make for a lot of capacity. It won't be cheap...something like $150 worth of added caps. However, I'll be able to run at the maximum amperage of the welder...something that 2 parallel super caps won't really do more than once before needing to recharge again.

I have 10 10Ah 4S multistar packs waiting to get used. I'm messing with different configurations of them to see what works best. Does more voltage work better...like 8S5P vs 1S10P or maybe 3S3P?I have a bunch of male XT-60s so it's just a matter of soldering them together and see how it goes.
 
spinningmagnets said:
Thanks for posting those details, EG. The kWeld can use an input of 3V-30V, but the max input for the kCap is 8.2V, which the designer determined in his humble opinion is the optimum balance between volts and the amps/timing.

Of course the kWeld still works with a 12V car battery, or a high-amp 3S LiPo, which seem to be popular.

Since my PSU only goes down to 9v, the caps get warm. Running them at more voltage just makes them hotter and hotter. Keep pushing the voltage higher...like 13v across 3 caps in series and they get hot enough to explode and spray nasty chemicals all over the place.

This detail needs to be made super clear in the manual. Something like this:

Do NOT run your super cap boards at more than 8.2v per board!
You will possibly cause the super caps to overheat and explode!
They will spray toxic chemicals everywhere!


The welder can run at up to 30 volts. The super cap boards...8.2v is good, 9v is pushing your luck a little. 3S or 11.1 volts...you better have a fan on the caps! They get hot!!! 13v and they explode! At $17 each for real Maxwell caps...that's an expensive lesson to learn!

A car battery is around 11-12v when fully charged...you'll need a fan on the caps. Under load it will probably sag somewhat so that makes a lead acid battery probably a pretty reasonable power source.
 
thundercamel said:
Pretty cool with the supercaps! I've been using the Malectrics with a car battery :p

I'm wondering where to get legit caps, but something like 1000 farad. Used or new is fine...they don't wear out.
I want to get them cheap, but also get good ones.
 
I posted last night about what happens when you over volt super caps. I was messing with them a year ago so my numbers I posted last night were based on what I saw a year ago.

But then it got me thinking...what can these boards/caps really handle?
People are saying they run them on 3S or 11.1v or a car battery...which based on what I did a year ago is way too high.

I knew it was possibly going to cost me some money in caps when I killed them, but worst case, I need to buy more caps.

So here is my results from actual over volting:


If you do this, expect to make a giant mess and blow up caps!!!
Have good ventilation, the released chemicals are BAD!!!
You will be buying more caps!!!


1. 9v is not a big deal. No fan...the caps get slightly warm.

2. 12v they got warm and the fan ran most of the time. I saw 4-6 amps draw that eventually settled out to .4-.6 amps continuous after they reached voltage.

3. 14.6 volts was catastrophic as you can see below. The caps got VERY hot, the fan could not keep up. I saw continuous 10 amp draw. 3 of the 6 caps exploded. They sprayed nasty chemicals every where. My plastic box is meted together by whatever the chemicals are. My eyes and nose burned. Like the Chinese caps I messed with last year...this was super nasty! Well those 3 caps I was going to play around with will now replace the 3 blown ones. LOL...guess I'll need to buy more for board expansion.

blown%20super%20cap%20board%201.jpg


blown%20super%20cap%20board%202.jpg


Since I had just blown up my super cap board and the experimenter caps were ordered last night, I figured I'd mess with LIPOs direct connected to the k-weld. This is 6 10Ah Multistar 4S packs in parallel fully charged. I could get a weld, but it was very very weak. I have another 6 packs, but I ran out of male XT60's so I can't parallel more of them. I think the C rating of these pack or maybe that they are older is the issue.

6%20packs%20in%20parallel%201.jpg


6%20packs%20in%20parallel%202.jpg
 
I just did that test on 6 10Ah Multistar packs and weld quality was very weak. They can't deliver the dump current needed for a proper weld...even 6 in parallel.

All of us can be idiots at times...myself included. I had just charged my 4 Graphene 3S 750mah 65C packs to 100%. I have a small quad copter I built some time ago they get used in. I thought that using a couple of the 4S Multistar packs in parallel with the 4 much smaller Graphene packs ought to give me the dump current capability and the larger capacity of much larger cells. Not thinking about 4S vs 3S, I plugged in a 3S pack in parallel with 2 4S packs. In seconds the 3S pack swelled and all 3 cells burst their seals. As soon as it started, I immediately realized my dumb-ass mistake, but it was already too late since the Graphene pack had already burst. We all hear horror stories about LIPO fires. Nothing...no fire at all! This was a fully charged pack. ALL 3 cells burst open. NO FIRE! I grabbed the pack and unplugged it. It was VERY HOT! Maybe I was lucky? I can't say, but I currently have 60 or 70 LIPO packs and have been using them since 2005. I've never had a single incidence of an issue. If one should have been BAD...this dumb stunt should have been it!

Burst%203S%20Graphene%20pack%201.jpg


Burst%203S%20Graphene%20pack%202.jpg
 
Not much luck there fella, u live to tell the tale at least hobbies are expensive I learnt that.
 
The blown super caps are replaced and the board is back up and running again. I now have 2 super cap boards. I also bought a much more powerful PSU.

I wanted to try out the welder on a single super cap module like I was doing before on the smaller Meanwell PSU that wasnt keeping up. That's what you see below. The idea was to see if the Meanwell SE-600-12 could keep up with my weld cadence or not. It is doing great. I see momentary voltage drosp on the volt meter for a second and then it's right back up again. I think it will do fine.

welder%20-%20latest%201.jpg


This is the precharger. Close the switch and you bypass the resistor bank. This is 24 3 ohm resistors in parallel. It's what I had on hand. I could have used any resistor value in parallel. I'll make up another 10 resistors in parallel for graceful discharge if I still want it. That's less important than gracefully charging.

welder%20-%20latest%202.jpg


9.44v is the lowest the Meanwell PSU will go. A little high, but high enough to be a significant problem.

welder%20-%20latest%203.jpg


I wonder if I was starving the welder previously? This weld was at 60 joules and it popped a hole in the cell...grrr. I've reduced power to 40 joules so it doesn't happen again. Last time this happened I was running at 70 joules. I've since bumped to 50 joules.

blown%2018650.jpg
 
By comparison the Sunnko 788H is a garbage. Even with better welding pens it's still nothing close to the KWeld. When I took apart the above pack, I found that a couple of the welds from the Sunnko had not adhered very well and were breaking loose. The KWeld, set to a reasonably high joule level will not make weak spot welds and won't blow holes through the cell. It's adjust ability is totally awesome!

After re-spot welding all the nickel strips with the KWeld, the balance wires need to be kept away from the cells and the nickel strips so they don't wear on them. A thin layer of closed cell foam does the job. I guess I could have made holes in the foam and brought out the wires, but 3 sections and slots in the foam worked just fine and it was easy to do. The rest of the balance wires come off the other side of the pack.

20S3P%20first%20layer%20of%20foam.jpg


Another layer of foam goes on top of everything. There's 3 layers on the bottom and 2 layers everywhere else. The whole thing is wrapped in Kapton.

20S3P%20closed%20up%20after%20rework.jpg
 
To foam then kapton or kapton then foam that is the question.

Seen it both ways, I think kapton first would need some thick stuff durable I'm thinking of any moisture left in foam causing condensation with heat and cold of cycling, top work though those cells are nicely bunched.

Soon as I saw the melted caps I thought that must of been fun i remember overvolting a 12v amp in my youth and having 1 blow a treat but the whole stack and some serious juice too not your average 1000 farad nippon locals must of heard it, lucky your not in flats lmao bomb squad out haha.
 
Ianhill said:
To foam then kapton or kapton then foam that is the question.

Seen it both ways, I think kapton first would need some thick stuff durable I'm thinking of any moisture left in foam causing condensation with heat and cold of cycling, top work though those cells are nicely bunched.

Soon as I saw the melted caps I thought that must of been fun i remember overvolting a 12v amp in my youth and having 1 blow a treat but the whole stack and some serious juice too not your average 1000 farad nippon locals must of heard it, lucky your not in flats lmao bomb squad out haha.

This is just the first step in packaging. Essentially just there to stabilize and isolate the 3 sub-packs. Later all 3 of them will get packaged together. All the balance wires will get connected together in parallel via 11 pin JST connectors. The main power wires will get soldered together and all that stuff will connect back to the BMS as a single 20S9P pack.

Kapton insulators like used in motor controllers are like 3 or 4 thicknesses of kapton tape. I wonder if you can buy thicker kapton tape?

Kapton is great stuff, but it's not very tough. It tears easily and doesn't take abuse. It's 3 best characteristics are heat resistance, UV resistance and glue that lasts. It could be used direct to the cells. I guess it could have worked to isolate the balance wires from the cells. I was really thinking about padding the 3 sub-packs and why not use the foam in the process to separate the balance wires from the cells? Kind of a "kill two birds with one stone" scenario.

Electrolytic caps and general electronics are one thing. They make that electrical burning smell, but nothing like blowing up super caps. Super caps heat up and the contents of the cell liquefy. The sides of the Maxwell caps have a burst seam in them that blows. When they blow the internal pressure is released and they blow various chemicals out the burst seam. This is much messier and stinkier than typical electronics burning out. Electrolytic caps burst and make a nice loud POP! Super caps don't do that. They are more like opening the valve on an air compressor that's full of old water. Gasses and liquid spray everywhere.
 
Interesting didn't realize the venting mech and how they fail differed.

I like the idea of sub packs for my scooter frame I can slot them down a long bit of box section and only have a small opening like stuffing lipos in rather than all at once allows me to create a real clean design.

Wish I was local I'd be dropping by have a look at the lair your cave make Aladdin blush.
 
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