New 60v Build. What can i do next?

[icecube57]

I removed the SLA from the trunk bag leaving the ping pack in it and chargers. I removed my water bottle and holder. Got a local fabricator to make a metal tray in the shape of a T with angle iron on the edges to act as a holder so the batteries dont slide out of the tray. One SLA battery it butted up perpendicular to the other battery . The tray fastens down with the two bolts from the water bottle holder. Its pretty sturdy. Has clearance so i can pedal easily without cliping catching or rubbing on anything. Makes handling the bike alot better. One thing about this tray is that even with flex in the suspension... about an inch or so the batteries can slide in the tray when i go over a big dip. But i stiffen up the spring a bit to limit suspension travel. I got some speed results in. The free wheel speed is around 65-70mph fully charged pack. 32-35mph level and i got it up to 43mph down hill. thats with a 280lb rider 38lb bike 45lb of batteries and 10lb brushed hub motor. My speedo could be off but im sure its set up correctly cause i do 15-20mph pedaling alone confirmed with car driving beside when i tested my speedo. still no torque arms. i got a torque rench and check how much torque i got on the bolts. Well over 100lbs maxed out the wrench I got a person that can make me some to attach to pre existing holes on the s-30 forks. Just all about getting the lazy sob to do it. Money doesnt tickle everyones fancy apparently.

 

[icecube57]

Ok here is an update on the 60V build. I bought a Watts Up meter. I think its the best thing that ever bought. Very informative drastically changed my riding style. Here is the info. No load free wheeling its pulling 1.65 amps. Under stall with brakes applied it pulls 30A no more no less. So i assume i have a 30A controller. The motor peaks at 1800 watts under stall. Full charge i sits at 66 volts. Controller pulls 0.05A 3-4 watts standing still. SLA giving me a voltage sag from hell. There is either a bad battery or something. because it reported a voltage sag of 57 volts. Maybe that was during the stall im not sure though.

 

[Link]

No, the voltage sag figure it reports is the lowest voltage the battery hit since the meter was turned on. 57V at 30A with a 60V pack is excellent, actually. My old 36V 18Ah pack sagged down to less than 30V. The 72V 4.5Ah pack I'm running now sags (guessing based on past figures) down to around 55V.

Seems you go a little faster than me now. I stuck the BD36 in a 20" rim and powered it with 72V. It tops at about 31-32mph.

 

[lazarus2405]

The motor peaks at 1800 watts under stall.

That's measured on Watts Up. Drawing 1800w, 57v under the strain, so yep, about 30a. Now the next step is to increase the current limit, which should be easy to get it up to 40a safely.

Of course, that's 0% efficient. :wink: It also illustrates the difference between power at the battery and at the wheel. You aren't doing any work when the bike goes nowhere. Power at the battery is amps x volts, while power at the wheel is rpm x torque. Though the torque will be impressive, the RPM is still 0, meaning no power.

What's your plan for the next step? 72v? More amps? An x5?

 

[icecube57]

i put my old SLA back on to see what it could do with new eq. It wasnt that bad. I orded a 60v charger from ebay. I hope its a decent or atleast a half smart charger. I peaked at 33A today still not bad. Im reluctant to do the high current mod. This controller was originally supposed to do only 36v and its doing 66+. I know some of the electronics are only rated at 50V. I normally pedal first anyways. I am consuming alot of current AH wise. surprising with a little riding i can go through 2-3 ah easily in 2-3 minutes... but im also not an average rider too im about 280lbs. Im going to use this for a 5 mile commute to work with some moderate hills. Im going to try it with my SLA and then try it with my ping/sla hybrid to see if any big differences show. X5 would be nice. Anyone know a source of torque arms. How hot does everyone's motor get. Im willing to go to 72 just fo kicks prob would upgrade with another 36v 20ah ping....

 

[Link]

How hot does everyone's motor get. Im willing to go to 72 just fo kicks prob would upgrade with another 36v 20ah ping....

The BD36s or the X5s? My BD36 usually only ever gets mildly warm at 72V, but keep in mind that it's in a 20" rim, so it doesn't have to pull many amps at all.

The X5s are much beefier. They don't really get hot at all.

 

[lazarus2405]

x5s rarely get even warm. It's a little disconcerting.

If you ran at 50mph for 10min or were practicing wheelies, I bet it'd get warm-hot-ish. Otherwise... :lol:

 

[icecube57]

The heat issue has me concerned. I can touch my motor and it feels hot. Hot like its not wise to leave your hand there hot. This is after riding through a few hills in my complex a few times. There is no degrade in performance. I peaked at 34A today and 1931w. The way i have my Watts up meter hooked up. Its before the controller not before the motor so its not actual watts or amps going through just the motor but through the controller and the motor. I can zoom through the hills in my apt complex with ease. Its fun to ride back down through them. The torque is ok. I really dont have to pedal at all. Dead start on level ground will catch you off gaurd but applying throttle after you've slowed down on a hill suck big time. This bike is fun when you have developed the momentum and are riding pretty good. Regular v brakes have stopped me at full speed respectibly. The lower amperage controller make startoffs kinda spunky with that inital jolt but it gradually gets to speed in a reasonable time. I loaded some pics of the watts up meter, the battery tray i fabricated for my frame. To the people that own the Schwinn s series... even though its full suspension there is still space in the frame to put something lol. Another side shot of the bike. Sorry for bad photos this Moto Q9h suck at taking pics

 

[dogman dan]

My motor gets plenty hot but I climb a monster hill to get home each day. 12 miles about 70% uphill home in the desert. WE brushed hub at 36 volts on the ping battery. I never let off on the throttle. It's about an hour of hard riding to get home. I couldn't fry an egg on it but it sure would warm a burrito. Maybe I could wrap two around it so they would balance nice. I agree that you should try a ping 48 volt 20 ah battery before you spend bucks on controller mods. You are going to be going slower just from the lead weight, and you may find the 48 volts suprisingly peppy once you drop all that lead. I did, and only run 36. Oh and don't beat yourself up about the cheap hub, it works great doesn't it? On my big climb home it's got lots of grunt. I never peadle to start it. I let it start me and peadal later so I can stay in the top gear and haull beans.

 

[icecube57]

Controller blew up today. Sounded like a hand gun going off. All the fet blew. Time to go get that 60v controller Ive always wanted. The circuit is and the fets are just crumbling apart. Didnt expect it to last long but a 36v controller at 67-68 volts.... lasting as long as it did. Im impressed. Watts up says 57.18 A and 3178 watts were my peaks for the day. Motor still good though! lol

 

[icecube57]

I just went to http://tncscooters.com and ordered ther 60v Controller rated for 1000w motors http://www.tncscooters.com/HK-60.php. According to my math on a fully charged battery pack of 68v and the controller could technically pull 60-100A for a short period of time.... Wouldn that technically giver me 3000-7000w power if maxed out... I went on ebay and saw a yiyun 60v controller http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electric-E-Scooter-Moped-Bike-Part-Controller-60V-1000W_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10066QQihZ019QQitemZ290232004761QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW rated for motors up to 1000w my caculations says its a 15-20 amp controller or it could be similar to the first one above. Did i make a good choice in the controller i bought. UPDATE:!!!! The Yi-Yun controller specs. http://www.yi-yun.com/product_detail.asp?cid=188&id=693 this is the only thing i can think that it could be... The pics dont match but the wires do and ive searched their site and its the only thing that looks right. If it is the same product 24/36/48/60 volts @ 40-100A max is not bad. I wonder could the BD-36 could take it.... It would be a grand finale for my bike...short lived but fun. Since i ordered the controller off of TNC scooters. The guy is in Tennessee I believe. Im in Georgia. So it should be here Monday no later than Tuesday with priority shipping. Glad i didn have my ping pack on when the controller blew it would have prob spazed out the BMS

 

[Link]

Looks like a pretty spectacular failure, LOL.

You might want to do what I did. I got a cheap 36V 30A controller from e-crazyman on eBay. Then I put in some 4110s and 100V caps. Stock diodes are good for 100V and 20A each (there are two of them). Don't know if it's the cheapest way to do things, but it should be pretty reliable. You'll need either a tap or a DC/DC for the logic, though.

 

[ngocthach1130]

wow i didn't know controllers are made out of charcoal. I think they should upgrade to better material to make controller

 

[dogman dan]

I bet you can run that brushed hub fine at higher voltage. You'll just get good at changing brushes. When you get tired of that, sell your controller to Link. Thanks for posting your results, now we know.

 

[icecube57]

Can anyone give me motor spec on the BD-36? Link(member)? I need a source of pre fab torque arms. My machinist waterjet cutter is down. Im worried about this now because the controller before wasnt that beefy... delivering 30-35 A but if this new controller does what it claims and delivers 60-100A ....for a short amount of time.... that has to amplify the torque tremendously. I read that the BD-36 is simalr to the 407 and if it is and i plug in my numbers 66v 26inch rim and limit it to a 50A controller(thats the highest controller they have) the motor would deliver 90NM of torque. And using the simulator it seems like 66v is the worst setup you could choose for watts consumed lol. no wonder i dont see that many on here.

 

[Link]

Nope, sorry. I've looked myself, and couldn't even find anything other than copied WE advertising blabber, let alone a spec sheet. I'm pretty sure that 60V and 30A in a 26" rim is pushing it's limits, though. 72V might just push it over the edge. But, hey, you don't know till you try. :wink:

One thing, though: The major weak point of the BD36 seems to be the brush assembly. It can melt, apparently. There are two different ones used, however. The one currently in my BD36 looks similar to the replacement, but the part that the brushes slide in and out of is made out of metal; the replacement is entirely plastic. I get the feeling the older one is more robust. :?

 

[icecube57]

Dont think im going to go to 72v if im going to go that far i might as well get an x5. The theory was supposed to be the more volts the less amps it pulls but 66v seems that pivotal point where you get reasonable amount of power but the power consumed to make it... Alot is wasted especially since its brushed motor. But its the amount of amps that the motor could recieve on this new controller. I think its technically made for a scooter i think... more likely. My bd-36 gets wickedly hot i hope.... i prob got a metal brush assembly. Otherwise it would have failed by now in my opinion. Im going to open it up soon and check the brushes and the assembly and take pics. Im going to pop open the controller and take some pics of it for you Link. I know your prob itching to see what you can do with your current or next build. I wont know if everything works until i get the controller tuesday perhaps wed... Ill have watts up results to post for you Link. Why wouldnt there be a lower amp limit on this controller. It almost ridiculous. What have i gotten myself into. Even scooters rarely pull that many amps.

 

[Link]

Don't worry, I've got a pair of 4110s in my controller. If I were to replace the diodes I could run a lot more power than I do now. :wink: And with the eventual twin-motor upgrade to my current build, I probably will end up doing it. 8)

You should be able to lower the amp limit. Usually, shunts are made up of two (or more) pieces of metal. If you don't want such a high limit, you can desolder some of them. Since they're also matched to each other (eg if there are two with a 100A limit removing one might give you say 40A instead of 50A), but the lower amp limit should be at least close to proportionate to the number of shunt pieces left.

I think there will be four pieces of shunt in that controller.

Careful with that Watts-Up. They only go to 60V, IIRC.

 

[lazarus2405]

I say, make sure your meter and controller can handle it, and move to 72v. :lol:

As far as "more volts" fewer amps" goes, the answer is "depends". To go the same speed, more voltage will in fact mean you will use proportionately less current. If the motor, controller, and meters can handle it, this is a good way to go. However, the increased voltage means that the motor will be able to draw more current in the first place. Especially at very low speeds, the motor will try to draw quite a bit more power. This is what makes those high voltage monsters wheelie machines, even though torque is directly proportional to current: the higher voltage lets you draw more current from the same motor.

 

[Link]

This is what makes those high voltage monsters wheelie machines, even though torque is directly proportional to current: the higher voltage lets you draw more current from the same motor.

Not really. The controller limits the current. For example, I drew 31.2A on 36V, and I drew 31.2A on 48V. The only way that would change the amperage drawn is if you had no controller, and the kind of amperage a motor would draw without a controller would fry even an X5.

 

[lazarus2405]

This is what makes those high voltage monsters wheelie machines, even though torque is directly proportional to current: the higher voltage lets you draw more current from the same motor.

Not really. The controller limits the current. For example, I drew 31.2A on 36V, and I drew 31.2A on 48V. The only way that would change the amperage drawn is if you had no controller, and the kind of amperage a motor would draw without a controller would fry even an X5.

Correct, if the motor is already current-limited by the controller at a given voltage, increasing the voltage won't increase your current . However, a 5303 won't be able to draw more than 40a at 48v. Increase it to 72v and it won't be able to draw more than 70a-80a.

With any sane voltage, an x5 with no current limit won't burn up. Though, above 120v, who knows?

 

[Link]

With any sane voltage, an x5 with no current limit won't burn up. Though, above 120v, who knows?

Who does that? I mean srsly. 8)

 

[icecube57]

I got some good news and some bad news good news is my controller came in today. Bad news is.... its way way way to stout. Under stall conditions it peaked at 5400W @108 amps. Under normal riding with the hills in my complex. it peaked at 4800 and 94A. The controller is made basically like a huge ass heavy heatsink. It weighs 2-3 pounds. No serviceable parts. It seems to be epoxyed in i scratch the surface and the controller seems to be pack in some material with the consistancy of hard play dough with a strong chemical smell. Its made in china. No english whats so ever on the controller. Its supposedly good from 36-60v according to the sticker. I installed it at low speeds there is a some grinding in the motor.... (think of the sound you get trying to adjust the brushes on a dremel tool to get it to run smoothly. Thats with the throttle at 25% or less when taken pass that point it rides like normal. Has alot of torque and speed. Im assuming from the amps its pulling. The voltage sag is so bad that i was at 67v... when i took it out for a ride it sagged down to about 52. Under a stall it dropped to 49 this is after a fresh charger... on SLA. The bms on my ping would have tripped just plugging the damn controller in. The controller says there is a cut off at 52.5.... they lied. It just kept pulling like there was no tommorrow. Im thinking this controller would probably be good for links dual motor setup 50-55 amps to motor. GRINS! But one motor no way. It did ride fine for the few minutes that i did ride it. I quit while i was ahead... instinct told me someone very bad was gonna go down. You could literally cook an egg on the motor no joke... no touching it at all.

 

[lazarus2405]

So add a second motor?


What're you using to measure that current? Watt's Up?

 

[icecube57]

Yeah its measured with watts up. Im not just making it up.