New 60v Build. What can i do next?

[icecube57]

I posted a video. Before IT happened. This morning i got off work, I decided to go out on a 47m paved bike trail by my apartment. Its level for the the most part. Great for a speed and range test. Charged pack hovering at 67.5v. Went out pedaled up to my max limit.I twisted in the throttle got up to about 36 mph according to my gps unit and it began to taper off as it was raping the pack and the motor started heating up. When my speed crested at 36 the controller was pulling about 60A. As the battery was discharging the number got lower and lower and lower in relation to the SOC health of the pack. It bottomed out at about 15A that was when my battery pack just passed out. Voltage actually dropped down the the high 30s. NO LVC on controller. By that time i had finished my trial run anyways. Unassited range other than pedaling up to speed was 8-9 miles on flat terrain 100% throttle the whole time. I consumed 7.55AH before the pack flat lined. 675wh consumed peaked at 91A 4800w. When i finally pulled back up to my car and stopped. I saw smoke billowing from my axel. You know how you leave a car in the sun and you see the heat waves coming off the car. The motor looked the same exact way. Im missing 3 finger prints on my hands from checking the motor temp. After about 1hr the voltage came back up to 61.5 on my pack. The motor also kicked the bucket again. I think the the brush holder is warped or melted or broken. One of the brushes is still making contact cause you can hear that soft clicking noise when u spin the wheel. I cant get any continuity on my V meter on any wheel position. Which leads me to believe that one of the brushes isnt making contact. I dont have the patience to disassemble the motor today. Maybe saturday morning when i get off from work. will take high res pics. If i disassemble the motor and find that the brush holder is to blame im going to try and track down an original metal one if they still exist. Prob order some new brushes and try again. If its a more complicated problem like the windings have melted or shorted. Im going to discontinue this build and move on to over volting a currie or possibly go to a rear wheel X5. Really intrested in some type of currie set up. How far can i push those i wonder. Lol i still have a 60v 100A controller. I think my other 60v works at 48v 100A. Dare me to take on the challenge. Lived up to my signature and rode the BD-36 like a rental. To bad i didnt get the insurance. I wonder if i sent the motor back to WE what would they say lol.

 

[dogman dan]

They'd say WTF! Still cool of you to try though. Good thing for Link he runs out his battery at 2 miles. I hope he sees this now that he has some lithium. Now we know, 60 volts brushed is for the dragstrip , not the daily 10 miles. Folks seem to get decent bush wear at 48 though, but I wonder if that would be true if the ride was 25 miles nonstop.

 

[Link]

Good thing for Link he runs out his battery at 2 miles. I hope he sees this now that he has some lithium. Now we know, 60 volts brushed is for the dragstrip , not the daily 10 miles.

Hey. I'm not the one running 91 amps on the thing :wink:. At only 30A I'm not getting near the heat he is. Or was. :lol:

Still want to see the inside of that motor for the LULZ.

 

[icecube57]

ok i said i was going to break the motor down the weekend but i figure since i did it before recently that this should be a breeze the second go round. As i said i checked it with my volt meter. No connection. Assuming the problem was the same as before. I cracked it open and check the brushes. Just as i suspected the other brush spring had collapsed and wasnt pushing the brush out far enough to make contact. I manipulated the spring to where the brush stood out at full attention. checked my previous fix. It was holding up fine. Tweaked it a little bit. Cleaned the motor out again. Alot of brush arching going on(i hope because of the bad contact) you can see little dabs of molten metal on where brushes contact. I took an abrasive clean pad and shined it back up. Paint is coming off the magnets. the plastic cover that cover the windings on the motor is slightly melted on one side and the other side was very brittle and it broke into little pieces. I hope its not that important because i had to re assemble the motor without it. I put the other cover on the side that the windings are soldered on. I shot a video of the test run with it upside down.
[youtube]soXj-fN05BQ[/youtube]

 

[Link]

Paint is coming off the magnets.

HA HA HA HA HA that's not paint! You managed to crack the nickel plating! :lol:

the plastic cover that cover the windings on the motor is slightly melted on one side and the other side was very brittle and it broke into little pieces. I hope its not that important because i had to re assemble the motor without it.

It's not really all that important. It just keeps the windings further insulated from the covers. They shouldn't be touching in normal operation anyway.

I'm not sure what that sound is. I'd say it was an unevenly worn brush rubbing on the commutator plate, but it doesn't change in pitch when the wheel accelerates. Might just be resonance in your frame? :?

 

[icecube57]

It does resonate through the bike now that you metion it. It sorta feels like when something vibrates at that right frequency where it just feels weird to touch or hold it it. Like clippers than need adjusting. but its been doing it since i started using the high amp controllers.

 

[icecube57]

i was looking at an electric pocket bike forum and there is a guy that was running a yk-42-4 controller at 60v without a problem. is this at all possible or maybe just wishful thinking. if i ran a 36v controller at 60v for a short period surely a 48v would be beefier

 

[icecube57]

I did another test run today. Went to a local park that has a 1m loop around the lake 80% level 1 medium hill and 1 small hill. I couldnt max out my speed so it would say it was similar to stop and go traffic go because the trail had ridges where tree roots prevent a smooth ride and prevented me from gaining momentum i was braking alot. Lot of slowing down and speeding up. It also didnt help that i misaligned my shifter so i couldnt get into a higher gear to pedal along with the motor i was in the 3rd gear on front and stuck in 5 in the back cause i couldnt push the gear selector it was hitting the throttle casing. I got 12 laps in pedaling some what but 100 throttle all the way pedaling was everything but useful. i was over pedaling way to much couldnt keep up with the bike. Nearly wiped out. there was some sand in one of the corners... a corner where u have to lean into it. The bike balance was fine its just the torque on the front caused some wheel slip and nearly pulled the bike from under me when it caught traction coming out of the turn. i had my WH wrong last time i used about 415wh 7.2 AH. Near top speed it pulls 40-50A hovering between 2000w-2500w It peaked at 97A. Voltage sagged down to mid 30s near the end of the packs life but popped back up to 61.5. Broke the pack down all the batts are equalized and were sitting at 12.3. Before when i was just riding around my complex... only pulling 1-2AH out the pack... they wouldnt balance out but since i did a full discharge they are all sitting the same now and my charged pack voltage is almost 69v now. I did have some batts that were charging low or to high. But they all coming up to 13.8 now. As for the motor. It was hot but not like it was on my last range test. No smoke no funny smells. No stuttering. I assume the brush was making good contact and my fix is holding up. I think the controller peaks over 100A but cant sustain it for long especially with the 10-12 gauge wire. During the stall test the other week. they wires warmed up quite a bit. I think this is a sister controller to the yk42-4 controller. They perform like they have the same specs 40-100A just maybe mine has better fets or something to allow it to safely run 60v i think the yk42-4 has no lvc either. The discharge curve went as followed the first 3-4 laps were good super fast runs. Then the speed came down after a lap or two plateaued off for 5 laps and fell off completely on my last lap. So i hope this is helpful to someone... Link... adjust the brush springs if u ever get your batts running right and take it up to 40A 72v. Ill have to do some more real world tests. Atleast i know i can get 8-12 miles through mixed terrain my job is 5 miles i work 8-12 hours and can charge at work. since i only pulled 7AH out the pack and my charger does 1.8A@60v it should charge in about 4 hours. I wonder if i get enough caps that can accept 60+v how many farads would i need to keep the motor happy and be able to use my ping pack again..without it smackin the bms up. i can get (3) 20v+/- 50farad and wire them in series??? is that possible.... then again i assume just as fast as the current rushes out a cap it would pull it from the ping just as fast.... and damn i would hat to plug that cap up... would take forever to taper charge.... and quick connecting it would weld the terminal to the battery connector some how and prob fry the controller. who knows...its an idea

 

[Link]

Eh. A 72V 10A Ping Pack would only be good for 20A rated, 30A peak, so no 40A for me if I rework the pack. I have been contemplating getting a 24V 20A pack to put in series with thi

*smacks self*

Fool! Like you can afford that!


Anyway, a cap won't do much good for anything other than the BMS tripping when you plug in the controller. Even 50F wouldn't power that for a few seconds. Also, putting capacitors in series is like widening the distance between the electrodes; you increase their maximum potential, but divide their capacitance.

I don't think they make 20V supercapacitors, either. Even if they did it would be crazy expensive, probably enough so to make it cheaper to add more battery.

 

[ngocthach1130]

Wow ice cube, did you true the wheel yourself or was this a bike shop's work. That is incredibly smooth movement. I've tried my best truing the wheels on all my ebikes and i still get vibration and oscillation. Similar to what you see in Link's S-go video, maybe a little less vibration. I've been using the frame as a truing stand but from the look of your bike and what potential mine can be. I might just invest in a proper truing stand.

 

[Link]

Similar to what you see in Link's S-go video, maybe a little less vibration.

LOL, actually I trued that wheel better than the PackCycle's. It's the TIRE on the S-Go that's off; the rim it used to be in was far thinner and it's kind of hard to center it on the one the BD36 came in. It's seated badly. I'll fix it later.

 

[Deepkimchi]

Did you ever put a torque arm on the bike??

Don't make me come over there...

 

[Link]

Erm...no?

I'm only running 48V 20A, and the drops are 6mm thick and solid, so I "should" be okay even if they are aluminum.

Laz! What were you running when yours broke? I need context!

 

[icecube57]

i can pick up 50F 20+-5V caps for car audio purposes for a little over 100 bucks. That wheel isnt true... if anything the wheel is prob bent from me whapping it on the pavement to get the motor apart. if i let go of the wheel like riding a bike with no hands there is a horrible shimmy the handlebars go wild. so it def not i true. Im disappointed with being only able to pull 7ah from the pack. Im debating on getting 18AH that will increase the weight reduce the speed all for maybe 9-10AH max with new 18AH sla. there is nothing else that can dump 100A for 5 seconds and be able to pull 40-60A constant. No torque arms although grabbing the wheel on a charged pack proved to be an amazing feat. nearly ripped my arm off. Anyone tried those prefab torque arms discussed in the other forum. I read you gotta go to the site get the number and ask for them and they were 12.50 a piece or for a set?

 

[icecube57]

Hey Link why does it seems like We are the WE pioneer. There seems to be a sudden explosion on ES and VIsForVoltage. I feel like a guiena pig and im paying the price for it part after part. If icecube is taking his motor out to the shed and having his way with it after almost frying it twice and using it as a hotplate after his runs... Boy i cant wait to get mine. Seems like the motor can take a beating and keeps on ticking. Im surprised at the simplicity of brushed motors. LOL Im actually pretty content with my setup right now i think that brush situation i had is water under the bridge.... amd should be smooth sailing... until my mast hits the bridge and i sink @ 72v. the way the windings are in the motor im sure they are fine at the heat levels. Its nice the way the wires are attached to the commuter plate. they are wrapped around and soldered so if some how it does get hot enough to melt the solder they are still fixed until the solder cools down and rehardens. The brush holder seems to be reinforced with some fiberglass or something. I dont think its gonna melt or warp it would have done it by now. I think my next upgrade is to upgrade the wires coming out of the motor. To beefier ones.what i think would be cool is if there were holes or wings cut open in the motor housing or case to where the forward motion of the motor would act like a fan ... sorta like force air induction lol through the motor... If balancing wasnt an issue i would weld heatsink fins to it. Im really thinking about re ordering a stock WE controller 35 or 50A and taking the cap and fets out of this controller and putting it the stock controller just so i can get an amp limit back. The stock has 4 fets i believe i got 8 in this current one ... i could technically make two if i had ennugh caps

 

[Link]

$100 apiece?! Jeeze, you'd be better off making a supplementary pack out of A123s.

How much does the stock controller cost?

 

[icecube57]

brush spring failed again caused so much heat the brush holder melted allowing the brush to slip out the holder and apparently it was still trying to run while cocked to the side. Took it to a motor shop the shop owner said the current is traveling down the spring causing the spring to heat up and collapse in on its self. then you get the excess heat from brush arching which ruined the brush holder. He told me to replace the brush holder and add 2-3 washers in the bottom of the brush holder to compress compress the spring more but not collapse it... It should be able to handle current better that way and will alsow compensate for the spring shrinkage and maybe add solder to the brush tail to make it stiffer to where it travels down the center of the spring instead of rubbing against it.... (like the shock and spring on a car). He also said the motor and windings are in ok shape... i might wanna replace the bearings in a while. Lower the amperage if i can he stated at the higher voltage i need to run 20-30A because more A is gonna create more heat. And i could probably go faster if i lowered it.

 

[icecube57]

WE is out of brushed controllers and brushes/holders... I was going to get a stock controller 36v 35A limit replace the fets with the ones in my 60v controller. And order several new brushes and mod them with the tips the motor shop guy gave me. WE is talking about 4-6 weeks for new parts... wtf anyone know of any other suppliers

 

[Link]

Keywin, AKA e-crazyman of eBay fame. I've had good results modifying his 36V 30A controllers. You can get them for a little over $20, I think.

 

[cnb]

milwaukee vs dewalt cells, is main issue in choosing between two, discharge rates?
how fast could 72v dewalt pack be charged? what is standard procedure like when balancing dewalt packs?
has someone tried fast charging dewalts with a zivan sla charger like Gary?
provided your packs are configured appropriate from start.

or is there other fast charging solutions, such as within 1-2 hrs max. is just Gary specializing in help building dewalt packs or perhaps others on this forum? now that most ride ebikes, do you still ride regular bikes in conjunction with ebiking?

 

[pwbset]

milwaukee vs dewalt cells, is main issue in choosing between two, discharge rates?

Well... I don't know about you, but I'm charging my Milwaukee packs to full up in 45-55minutes when they are all but drained dry. Not too shabby. And I may not be in the big leagues amp-wise, but they can certainly deliver for most people's ebike setups. 10-15c on even 6-8ah is quite a pull really.

Having said that... I'm sure if money were no object and I had a 5 series Clyte with 50+A and 50+V I'd be all over the a123s.

 

[icecube57]

Ok here is a run down of my current project... im going to abandon the WE motor... not worth to wait for new parts and fix it. Im going to get a Clyt Sparrow which is a 409 brushed motor from crystalyte. Im getting a 48v 25A stock controller. Upgrading the fets to 60v and giving it a whirl. Same voltage less amperage. Proven safe at 48v. Reputable company. And easy to get a hold of parts. Im going to whord brushes just incase. But im thinking im good if the controller is moddable and limits the Amperage to 25A and maybe just maybe i can go back to lipos.

http://www.crystalyte.com/Mspecs.htm link for 409 motor specs at 36v and 48v.

 

[cnb]

milwaukee vs dewalt cells, is main issue in choosing between two, discharge rates?

Well... I don't know about you, but I'm charging my Milwaukee packs to full up in 45-55minutes when they are all but drained dry. Not too shabby. And I may not be in the big leagues amp-wise, but they can certainly deliver for most people's ebike setups. 10-15c on even 6-8ah is quite a pull really.

Having said that... I'm sure if money were no object and I had a 5 series Clyte with 50+A and 50+V I'd be all over the a123s.

if you go on long distance rides, do you take chargers with you? could you describe your battery configuration n charger name or specs? Myself I'm interested in building either Milwaukee or dewalt 72v 8-9ah. Or could even go 56v, which a standard clyte 48v could handle.

is there certain threads or posts that describe on building these packs from start to finish? or someone that specializes in ordering n building these packs? I'm thinking might be more cost effective if cells are ordered n prebuilt in U.S then shipped to Canada. Overall, how heavy are both your batts n chargers? Is this around 10-12lb range?

Is your battery pack connected through anderson connectors on your clyte controller? What about having to balance cells? What's this continual process like?

 

[Link]

Hey, icecube. By "abandon" do you mean "not use anymore" or "sell"?

 

[icecube57]

Once i take the fets out the controller it will be useless to me. Got tired of picking and wittling and drilling at the potting compound on my other 60v controller. Looks jacked up but still works. Prob get rid of the throttle other handle bar cap. The motor is broken down but still laced in the rim. Its up for grabs for the ultra low low