Optibike's "twist" on 2012 Pikes Peak ride

so itchy was running over 100V? cmon guys this isnt a fair comparison, how can any US based ebike manufacturer safely sell an ebike (motorbikes are different) to joe public running at over 48V volts and still meet CE? you just cant, 124V is a lethal voltage and justin also explains this on the podcasts too.

For me you need to be on a par power wise when you race else its no different to the camera motorbikes on the tour de france claiming they made it to the top of the climb before Bradley did! ha ha.

FFR Trikes are also not cheap either so cmon fellas, lets get a little 48V powered Turnigy with the same pack volts and amps to make it to the top then you can brag all you like :)
 
lets get a little 48V powered Turnigy with the same pack volts and amps to make it to the top then you can brag all you like
Click to expand...

So your saying bolting a 12" motor onto a bicycle frame & jambing 100+ volts is akin to a hand gernade in a game of darts? :D

The time is coming to define a few parameters....not to inhibit anyones creativity, but to establish a baseline for competition. Even the top fuel guys have some parameters to adhere too.
I can get behind a voltage ceiling....or anything really, but I don't like the idea I have to drop big bucks to have a servicable machine for competition.

Now, I have to go lay another layer of carbon on my new fork set, Septembers coming :mrgreen:
 
What we know, is it takes about 1kWh to get to the top @ 80wh/mile with a mildly modded hubbie and rider input.

I imagine there are a couple of ER members that can pull that together, if the opportunity ever presents itself again.
 
neptronix said:
OK, all the respect they earned when i visited them in person is nullified.
liveforphysics said they'd pull some shit like this, and guess what, they did.

Let's beat them even harder and more numerously next year. :mrgreen:
I'll deal with Pat for that.
Click to expand...


Every time I bring something purpose built to win a race, and win it, the people who lose to it will discredit it. This seems to just be human nature, I don't judge opti-bike for it, because everyone seems to do it, including myself sometimes. lol


My suggestion was just to win with a sub $600 kit made from all off-the-shelf available parts, and have a parts list printed out on paper clearly showing each component and a brief picture of how to modify it if required (like holes drilled in a motor cover or how to seal it up and adding oil etc).

IMHO, a stock magic pie with $1 in silicone applied to seal up the side covers and a $3 pint of auto-tranny fluid could do this race and easily beat optibike for a sub $200 motor cost and a $100 controller. Add in turnigy hardcase lipo packs at $0.34 shipped per Whr shipped until you've got the appropriate battery to make whatever distance they set for the next race.


If you build a super fancy exotic custom wound triple stator fancy magic pixie-dust drivetrain and win, you're saying it takes magic pixie dust fancy builds to beat Optibike (even if the build costs you very little because you can do all the work yourself).

The trick is to win with a setup that is available to Joe-everyman for a price he can afford to build, so people see ebikes as a viable daily realistic range/performance transportation alternative for folks on an everyman's budget.
 
Thud said:
...The time is coming to define a few parameters....not to inhibit anyones creativity, but to establish a baseline for competition. Even the top fuel guys have some parameters to adhere too.
Click to expand...

I think we have said this before.. but its always difficult to set "fair & reasonable" rules, and be able to enforce them without endless scrutineering hassles.
Even a "Production Stock" class would need some detailed scrutineering expertise to prevent secret upgrades. !
Best system i know is the "Bracket" target times,..but that's impractical for a event like this , as you need qualifying runs.
My second favorite way of controlling entry's is the "claimer" system.. where any competitor can lodge a claim to buy either of the top 3 finishers bikes for a fixed $$$ amount ..Its just a matter of setting a " claimer" sum .... say $5000 ?
That prevents excessive investment in equipment and encourages development.
Of course that would be seen as targeting Opti, so maybe more than one $$$ class , or an "Unlimited" class would be needed ??

..Nah !!.. this gets complicated /messy very quickly,
..... but you can be sure that they cannot leave it uncontrolled for long !
 
CraigT said:
Blatent lies? Hardly.

128v vs 124.5v : My memory of our conversation was off by 3.5v. My apologies. I was not exactly taking notes. My 3000w calculation was based on my erroneous voltage and the current draw I was told. Again, my bad.

4000+w (4x power) was a direct reference to the FFR Trikes, which I have congratulated on several occasions both in person, and here.

I was told at the summit by itchynackers that his temperature was climbing for the entire ascent, with the exception of the flat/downhill part. I also remember hearing that the temp gauge stopped working about a mile from the summit but that itchynackers was very concerned about finishing.

To me, when a motor shows an increase of heat to the point where the heat gauge stops working, I regard that system as inefficient. Given that fact, I do not believe that a hub motor could have completed the old, longer course without overheating. The first place Optibike used 500wh to summit, just as a comparison.

I am not trying to discount anyone's victory- I have congratulated everyone at the race, both in person, and online. Of course, we are still an easy target- so fire away.

Craig Taber
Optibike
Click to expand...

Craig,
I was pretty happy with everyone up until I read the newsletter. You weren't taking notes, but were concerned enough to use the info in the letter. By the way, the temp gauge stopped working because the plug came out of the digital meter. Plugged it back in and everything was fine. I guess you assumed it melted or something. And of course I was concerned about finishing, weren't you? I guess easy targets are everywhere these days. Unfortunately, I wasn't the first to go down that road (not that I would have). Its just sad that your newsletter had to phrase things the way it did, when really, it could have been more positive.
 
Agreed. My $1600 package includes the $450 on the new Trek bike. So I guess I can say the kit cost me $1150. I'm getting closer. I certainly don't claim to be a guru here, just another guy learning from the rest.
 
itchynackers said:
I certainly don't claim to be a guru here, just another guy learning from the rest.
Click to expand...
Except you are the friggin MAN...!

You got out there, cooked up a batch of whoop-ass and gave everybody the recipe. :twisted:
 
TylerDurden said:
itchynackers said:
I certainly don't claim to be a guru here, just another guy learning from the rest.
Click to expand...
Except you are the friggin MAN...!

You got out there, cooked up a batch of whoop-ass and gave everybody the recipe. :twisted:
Click to expand...

To the Hell Yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
You should see how guys with $120,000usd Porsche's react when you beat them by a huge margin with a 20 year old Civic that visually looks stock.

Optibike is honestly taking it pretty well IMHO.


Don't let them take anything from your win Itchy. You brought your daily commuter ebike that you built on a small budget and you won by a healthy margin. That's doing it buddy, don't let them sour your win. :)
 
Maybe someone can explain to me how Opti can tout themselves as 1st place for the last several years racing against all pedal bikes (in a class of their own for sure, being far more powerful than joe average with a road bike), but when a more powerful electric bike comes along they start throwing numbers around. Its a win for FFR and itchynackers any way you look at it.
Nobody will disagree that a hub motor is more prone to overheating on a hill climb, right? So how can you say a hub motor needs to have the exact same power for it to be a fair race? If someone uses an extravagant cooling system will Opti say "Yes, but we dont use a cooling system like that.. the hub motor needed that to win" etc.. What exactly is the goal, 2 totally equal bikes in every way, but the rider's physical shape is the difference? Why use electricity at all then? To me the idea is to have the better bike - more powerful, better cooling, able to handle the corners, etc..

It sucks that anyone would take anything from FFR or Itchynackers after all of the effort and planning. Yes, I get marketing, but on the forums why not just say "You won this year, we'll bring something better next year", or go with the arguement "that's a purpose built machine for hill climbing where our Optibikes are much more well rounded".
 
CraigT said:
To me, when a motor shows an increase of heat to the point where the heat gauge stops working, I regard that system as inefficient. Given that fact, I do not believe that a hub motor could have completed the old, longer course without overheating. The first place Optibike used 500wh to summit, just as a comparison.
Click to expand...

Huh? a hub motor can do it just fine. 20" wheel and a big motor ( 54xx / cromotor ) would have done that climb continuously at 30mph or more without ever overheating.

You got beat by a hub, fair and square.
 
[You got beat by a hub
Click to expand...
.. True.

fair and square
Click to expand...
Well ... i'd like to know about the numbers above.


100v x 10 amps = 1000w
100v x 100 amps = not the same animal.

This was a 6x10 ( Slow rpm/volt ) motor.. you have to volt it up to even get the desired rpm, obviously the builder got it right.
 
Ypedal said:
what is the peak power on the 1100r bike ? ( Volts x max amps of the controller )
Click to expand...
I rekon that depends on the software hack in use:

Bike_on said:
<snip>
Did you know if your Opti was in the High Boost mode. Their is an easter egg in the fast/eco switch. Toggle it fast several times and it reprograms the boost from the controller. Opti insider owners know this.

DR
Click to expand...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26567&p=397408&#p397408
 
CraigT said:
Blatent lies? Hardly.

128v vs 124.5v : My memory of our conversation was off by 3.5v. My apologies. I was not exactly taking notes. My 3000w calculation was based on my erroneous voltage and the current draw I was told. Again, my bad.

4000+w (4x power) was a direct reference to the FFR Trikes, which I have congratulated on several occasions both in person, and here.
Click to expand...

The above is *not* lying. Also, coming from being an avid BI-cyclist I don't see any shame or twisting of the truth to word-play past the go-cart style TRI-cyclists that pedal different position-wise & low to the ground with different aerodynamics & weight loading abilities.

I am a BIcyclist. Tour de France isn't going to allow entry of low riders, ever, period. :twisted:

[ Thankfully! :mrgreen: ]

It's ok to have a parade of eBike-creatures going up Pikes Peak together too, but let the race(s) be with pedigrees of correct breeding & type even if they run wild together at times or during a race.
 
Well said. While I understand that itchynickers might have been offended, I think it was totally unintended and in no way malicious. There's always going to be hype in marketing so I really wouldn't take it personally.

As for high-powered recumbents and hubs, the more entrants, the more successful the event. Just race them in different classes. So many great mountains to climb in California and a lot of willing participants. In the end, participation = success.
 
Dont get me wrong here itchys job is impressive for a DD hub motor and hats off to him for making it without the motor toasting but I dont think there is anything to argue about in the title to this post in that somehow Opti twisted it? they havent lied about anything, their bikes are very expensive but it doesnt make them any less capable and their efficiency for any climb will always be better than a DD hub motor you cant get away from that fellas.

In most races of any worth the bikes would be split in to classes where the performance was matched, for this kind of endurance climb its not about speed but efficiency of the drive system and rider combined, racing ebikes against human powered bikers is pointless but so is racing ebikes where one has 3 times the power of the other, play fair on the battery volts and capacity then you can get some even racing, things are never going to get refined in the ebike world if we all simply say well I will just bolt on loads of cheap lipo massively over volt the motor to the point of it catching fire use& huge ammounts of wasted power to simply claim a win.

Again Itchy did a great job but he had no competition in his class? and thats the thing here, I still think the Opti isnt the answer as it is out of the price of most folks but if you have the bucks and you want a bike that looks great, handles well and is super efficient then its a good choice, so many ebike manufacturers have fallen by the wayside in the time that Opti have been in business so they must be doing something right? Its too easy to hate on them just because they are expensive and you have to put yourself in their shoes for a moment, they could have easily have played the efficiency card here and denounced outright the disparity with the power and capacity of the other bikes, its almost as unfair as if Opti claimed that they beat the human powered bikes up the climb, 850W versus 4KW being akin to 250W max human power versus the 850W of the opti bike.

You can only win fair if you play fair, I think Paul Ds race bike (tuned down) would be an awesome entry in that race and would prove my point perfectly.
 
Im going to have to root for the under dawg. Even if the efficiency sucks ass. You still have an ebike that costs 1/5th of the high $$ competitor and walks all over them. You are in two totally different classes as far as power but where is the value at. Im sorry even if you built your 1st bike and it was complete garbage you still can build 4 more bikes and learn from your mistakes and still come out ahead.
 
Well maybe Opti should race this years bikes against their bikes from 5 years ago. Wait, that wouldn't be "fair". Also, they wouldn't be in the same "class". And the more powerful bike won because it was less "efficient". I guess I was under the impression that the first bike up wins. I didn't read any ride documentation about efficiency, or I'd have built a different bike (maybe powered by the wind). But then again, we'd be in a different class. Hmm, not quite sure what to do in order to put me on equal par with the Optibikes. Maybe just buy their bike and hire one of their riders.

I guess I get offended when someone is referring to me like that (in the newsletter). Maybe I take things too personally, who knows.
 
Hey itchy.. how many amps were you drawing most of the way up ?


( still trying to get figured from my earlier questions ) .

Given a DD setup, being locked into a single gear ratio ( electrically speaking ) the rpm/v motor + wheel size + pack voltage = rpm range of throttle......

edit : Peak power means very little in a race like this ( only at the starting line ) , it's all about continuous power load going up the hill..
 
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41798
 
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