Pikes Peak Race--Entering?

[mrbill]

I like this idea, too. But how would you enforce a segment of a race as "pedal only"?

Something simple, like a blinking LED that indicates any power drawn by the motor. That might look cool during night racing.

If you're racing on a closed track with course monitors stationed to cover the segment, then this might work. But, we hold our events on open roads where it would be impossible to police such a policy. Also, it would require participants to wire up something extra that isn't useful at any other time.

A CycleAnalyst that many consider an essential piece of e-bike hardware could be used and inspected along with the rest of the bike before the event to verify compliance with a current limit or batteries inspected to verify compliance with a stored energy limit.

Yes, it's still possible for someone to cheat by resetting their CA after inspection or to stash batteries along the course. To catch this or other cheats there are analytical methods that check the plausibility of an amazing result after-the-fact.

The bottom line is that we want to see other e-bikers at these events and for everyone to have fun. But, we need to take certain steps to assure that ebikes entered are still bicycles not motorcycles. Our insurance is for a bicycling event, not a motorcycling event.

 

[mrbill]

You guys worry and bicker over some of the dumbest and silliest stuff. The whole point is to have fun. Start tossing in rules which end up changing frequently and getting overly detailed on rules and you end up with people who just bitch at each other that something they are doing isn't fair. I've been to enough drag racing events to see this first hand.
If you followed of the victorville races my bicycle ended up finishing first but was not the fastest by a long shot.
We are a minority community and will be so for quite some time here in the USA. Enjoy and have fun.

Ah, if it were only so simple, "just to have fun".

I agree that rules suck. I'd rather not have to worry about rules.

But, if you asked 10 e-bikers who built their rigs what was their design objective you might get 10 different answers. But, usually they boil down to some variant of "power and speed" or "efficiency".

Then, there is insurance that is purchased for an organized event. It's a easier and cheaper to get insurance for a bicycling event than a motorcycling event.

The Low-Key events started as bicycling events, and e-bikes were allowed to enter later, at my request. The organizers want to keep the event a bicycling event.

 

[TylerDurden]

I like this idea, too. But how would you enforce a segment of a race as "pedal only"?

Something simple, like a blinking LED that indicates any power drawn by the motor. That might look cool during night racing.

If you're racing on a closed track with course monitors stationed to cover the segment, then this might work.

But, we hold our events on open roads where it would be impossible to police such a policy. Also, it would require participants to wire up something extra that isn't useful at any other time.

In those cases, a datalogger makes sense. It could be useful throughout development, event scrutineering and post-mortem.

 

[Warren]

Bill,

Yes. I had seen those ride entries. They were both in line with what I would have expected for your rigs. But most of your average speeds are well below 20mph. That is what had me wondering. But double digit grades, and rough roads would certainly account for the lower averages.

I guess I will have to get off my butt, and mount the Zzipper experimenter bubble that has been sitting in the corner for months. It has been so bloody hot this summer, I just haven't liked the thought of blocking the wind.

Warren

 

[mrbill]

Bill,

Yes. I had seen those ride entries. They were both in line with what I would have expected for your rigs. But most of your average speeds are well below 20mph. That is what had me wondering. But double digit grades, and rough roads would certainly account for the lower averages.

I guess I will have to get off my butt, and mount the Zzipper experimenter bubble that has been sitting in the corner for months. It has been so bloody hot this summer, I just haven't liked the thought of blocking the wind.

Warren

Hi Warren:

What those averages (~15 mph) don't show is that I tend to climb the hill slowly but go downhill and on the flat parts fast. Problem is when the ride has much climbing, I spend half or more than half of the time on the uphill. The weight of the fairing doesn't slow me down on the uphill as much as it would slow me down (or reduce my efficiency) on the downhill or flat parts.

I live in an area that is very dry when it gets hot (>85F). When the humidity is low you don't need to put your body in the full wind stream to get adequate cooling. Just a light breeze that comes around and under the fairing is enough to stay comfortable.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'd like to see some more competing with E-bikes. There should be several events around the US each year, perhaps Canada too. But when it comes to rules, its an interesting discussion to ponder...considering the history of competition and how the human factor responds in unexpected ways. The basic question is...what do you want to encourage, and what do you want to discourage?

Lowracer trikes can corner much faster than an upright bike, Personally I'd give them their own class, and at Pikes-Peak I'd have let them start precisely one minute before anyone else.

Some bikes in different classes would pass some stragglers in the next class up, but...that happens, and its fine after the bikes have spread out. I just don't want a wreck at a bunched up starting line.

After the trikes? the unlimited class. If it has working pedals, its a bicycle. Yes, I know people will show up with electric motorcycle parts. My response is...so what? Perhaps make the unlimiteds pedal 100 yards before they can install their battery pack and ride powered. I'm sure that would result in the development of some very clever and innovative quick-swap battery-pack slide-in mounts.

The next classes down become a little trickier. How to find any kind of consensus? The governing body has to find some way to offer enough of a prize to get contenders to show up. And whatever rules they impose will define what can and cannot be done. If you impose a weight rule, the result is sure to be some competitors who show up with a carbon-fiber frame sporting titanium bits....so that they can carry more volts than the others at the minimum amp-hour size to finish the race.

A course that includes a few long flats and also a steep uphill, will encourage systems with a non-hub motor using multiple gears (like a BB-drive). And if I was sponsoring a series with enough prize money to ensure a lot of interest, I'd also want one class that was limited to 48V / 15-Ah...where each of the contestants grabbed a random pack from a pile that was supplied by me, so that all the bikes had the same chemistry, along with the same volts and amp-hours.

No way to please everyone...the Can-Am series was pretty much unlimited, which did create to a lot of innovation. There were movable wings that flattened out on the straights to reduce drag, then they angled steeply to increase downforce so the curves could be taken faster. There were also "ground effects" bodies that created more downforce the faster you drove.The Chaparral team had a full skirt around their car and added huge fans to actually suck the body into gripping the pavement harder. What innovations do we want to see resulting from a particular limit in an E-bike class?

There are several reasons stated as to why the Can-Am series ended, but the truth is that it was because of the Porsche 917/30KL. Advertising revenues dropped off when the fans stopped watching because that car was leading by very huge margins. Not much of a race when everybody knows what car will come in 1st before the race even starts (917/30KL is my new nickname for Luke, if his schedule is free and he shows up, you are racing for second place).

There were people who didn't know a thing about the Chicago Bulls (or even basketball), but they knew who Michael Jordan was. So, how do we keep it interesting, so we can grab the national interest, and give E-bikes a real national media spotlight?...

 

[Warren]

Bill,

"The weight of the fairing doesn't slow me down on the uphill as much as it would slow me down (or reduce my efficiency) on the downhill or flat parts."

In my local area most decents are short, and followed by a short ascent, so carrying the momentum further up the hill would be great. There are a few slightly longer, steeper decents where I hit 40-43 mph now. But up on the Blue Ridge I would be riding the brakes on every decent. Even unfaired, going 50 mph just takes a lack of imagination and good sense.

I have seen some of your maximum speed readings. I hope the curves are not as tight as they are here.

Warren

 

[docnjoj]

I'd like to see some more competing with E-bikes. There should be several events around the US each year, perhaps Canada too. But when it comes to rules, its an interesting discussion to ponder...considering the history of competition and how the human factor responds in unexpected ways. The basic question is...what do you want to encourage, and what do you want to discourage?

Lowracer trikes can corner much faster than an upright bike, Personally I'd give them their own class, and at Pikes-Peak I'd have let them start precisely one minute before anyone else.

Some bikes in different classes would pass some stragglers in the next class up, but...that happens, and its fine after the bikes have spread out. I just don't want a wreck at a bunched up starting line.

After the trikes? the unlimited class. If it has working pedals, its a bicycle. Yes, I know people will show up with electric motorcycle parts. My response is...so what? Perhaps make the unlimiteds pedal 100 yards before they can install their battery pack and ride powered. I'm sure that would result in the development of some very clever and innovative quick-swap battery-pack slide-in mounts.

The next classes down become a little trickier. How to find any kind of consensus? The governing body has to find some way to offer enough of a prize to get contenders to show up. And whatever rules they impose will define what can and cannot be done. If you impose a weight rule, the result is sure to be some competitors who show up with a carbon-fiber frame sporting titanium bits....so that they can carry more volts than the others at the minimum amp-hour size to finish the race.

A course that includes a few long flats and also a steep uphill, will encourage systems with a non-hub motor using multiple gears (like a BB-drive). And if I was sponsoring a series with enough prize money to ensure a lot of interest, I'd also want one class that was limited to 48V / 15-Ah...where each of the contestants grabbed a random pack from a pile that was supplied by me, so that all the bikes had the same chemistry, along with the same volts and amp-hours.

No way to please everyone...the Can-Am series was pretty much unlimited, which did create to a lot of innovation. There were movable wings that flattened out on the straights to reduce drag, then they angled steeply to increase downforce so the curves could be taken faster. There were also "ground effects" bodies that created more downforce the faster you drove.The Chaparral team had a full skirt around their car and added huge fans to actually suck the body into gripping the pavement harder. What innovations do we want to see resulting from a particular limit in an E-bike class?

There are several reasons stated as to why the Can-Am series ended, but the truth is that it was because of the Porsche 917/30KL. Advertising revenues dropped off when the fans stopped watching because that car was leading by very huge margins. Not much of a race when everybody knows what car will come in 1st before the race even starts (917/30KL is my new nickname for Luke, if his schedule is free and he shows up, you are racing for second place).

There were people who didn't know a thing about the Chicago Bulls (or even basketball), but they knew who Michael Jordan was. So, how do we keep it interesting, so we can grab the national interest, and give E-bikes a real national media spotlight?...

Bravo spinning Mags!
Jim Hall was one of the 20th century automotive genius's. The Porsche /Audi corp simply outspent everyone for a long time and, surprise, they made the fastest car in the world. Sort of like Ford did to Ferrari ten or 15 years earlier.Bikes are cheaper but they're still subject to the same rules of "money talks" except in this case Optibike did NOT win! Maybe there is hope for the little guy?
Just ramblin'. Great post by the way!
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

I got 2 posts for the price of one! Must be my lucky day!
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

Or even three!
otherDoc

 

[itchynackers]

In all fairness, I think Optibike COULD build something more powerful/faster. They just choose not to. Being a company, they have to consider carefully the legal ramifications of selling a novice/numbskull a more powerful machine. In America, you can get sued for anything, unfortunately.

 

[Grey beard]

Having been involved in motorsports for 41 years and counting, I watched as people tried to set up different classes, rules, and then try to enforce them. Enforcement is the complicated part. After the race, someone has to spend the rest of their day listening to the whiners, try to find the cheaters, while everyone else is having hotdogs and beer. In the end, it seldom works to have a lot of rules. If the makers of the rules were also the scutineers, there would be fewer of them.
My thoughts: "Production E-bikes". Factory built. If they get to really fighting it out, it helps us all.
"Bicycles". must be a production bicycle with add-ons. Could split it into 2 classes by weight. Big batteries and motors weigh more.
"Give the trikes there own.
"everyone else". Put a weight limit on them as I wouldn't want a hundred MPH motorcycle trying to pass me in a turn. Safety should always be a factor.
No matter what, you'll get a bike with tweeks and a 145lb rider adding 500 watts for hours on a climb, and you can't handicap that. So, to me, make it simple. Allow for a "race what ya brung" format. It'll improve the breed the most. Hand wound, hand built motors, unobtanium batteries. Let 'em come. A minimum of classes, a minimum amount of scrutiny. Send 'em off 30 seconds apart, and everyone has fun. I really disliked the engine teardowns after races, when many people didn't get to head home for hours, nothing is found, and you have twenty people standing around taking pics and commenting. I raced all over this country and things like that where you have to endure the process when you need to get back home so you can go to work to make the money that allow one to enjoy his or her hobby.

 

[Green Machine]

I agree with weight limits.

Weight limit would fix a lot.

For example no bike over 100 pounds. And its easy to have a scale at the race to weigh every bike before the start.

 

[mrbill]

Bill,

"The weight of the fairing doesn't slow me down on the uphill as much as it would slow me down (or reduce my efficiency) on the downhill or flat parts."

In my local area most decents are short, and followed by a short ascent, so carrying the momentum further up the hill would be great. There are a few slightly longer, steeper decents where I hit 40-43 mph now. But up on the Blue Ridge I would be riding the brakes on every decent. Even unfaired, going 50 mph just takes a lack of imagination and good sense.

I have seen some of your maximum speed readings. I hope the curves are not as tight as they are here.

Warren

Hi Warren:

I think of myself as a cautious descender. That doesn't mean I'm always slow, but I reduce risk where I see potential hazards, or don't see them, as is usually the case. Most often these are on the far sides of curves that are blind. The fastest guys know the roads and the curves, but they can never be sure the road is safe when they can't see it. They're willing to gamble that the road is clear of hazards and plow around these at speed and occasionally come to grief. I usually slow down a bit when I can't see within my maneuvering distance as I don't like surprises.

You can get an idea how my riding compares to others who are competitive in their riding habits here:
http://app.strava.com/athletes/164504

Take a look at one of these rides (only one so far in August) and compare segment times with others who have ridden the same road segments.

My >50mph max speeds are all on straight or nearly straight drops with good sight lines and few or no intersections. Even still there are hazards: bike failure (e.g. flat tire), gust of wind, deer leaping onto the road in front of me--don't laugh, it happens more often than you might think, etc.

 

[mrbill]

I agree with weight limits.

Weight limit would fix a lot.

For example no bike over 100 pounds. And its easy to have a scale at the race to weigh every bike before the start.

I'm not crazy about explicit weight limits.

A weight limit encourages the use of parts that are lightweight and possibly too weak to do the job, especially for home-built bikes. This can be a safety issue. It also discriminates against competitors who cannot afford or who prefer not to use fussy and volatile lithium batteries. A weight limit is implicit because a competitor won't be competitive if his bike weighs too much. No need for an explicit limit.

If we're talking about bicycles, I prefer a requirement that its operator be able to pedal it under human power only on flat, windless ground at some reasonable speed, such as 18mph. Then place a limit on maximum sustained motor power (for a hill climb event) or on maximum stored energy (for an endurance event).

I agree with Grey Beard that the number of rules should be minimized. But any event needs some rules. Find the minimal set of rules that constrain the race so that it meets the requirements of event insurability and general safety but so that it encourages maximal participation by the broadest set of potential competitors.

Some are interested in events that showcase efficiency and human power contribution. Others prefer contests of speed or power without limits. No event will be appropriate for all potential competitors.

 

[Green Machine]

.

If we're talking about bicycles, I prefer a requirement that its operator be able to pedal it under human power only on flat, windless ground at some reasonable speed, such as 18mph. Then place a limit on maximum sustained motor power (for a hill climb event) or on maximum stored energy (for an endurance event).

The problem is those things are nearly impossible for an organizer to test. Weight is super easy to test (just have a scale at the event) ...and keeps someone from just slapping pedals on what obviously is just an electric motorcycle with pedals.

 

[Arlo1]

.

If we're talking about bicycles, I prefer a requirement that its operator be able to pedal it under human power only on flat, windless ground at some reasonable speed, such as 18mph. Then place a limit on maximum sustained motor power (for a hill climb event) or on maximum stored energy (for an endurance event).

The problem is those things are nearly impossible for an organizer to test. Weight is super easy to test (just have a scale at the event) ...and keeps someone from just slapping pedals on what obviously is just an electric motorcycle with pedals.

Problem is a weight rule makes it a rich mans sport. The more exotic stuff you have the lighter you are so the faster you can build it. I can make a 100lb bike that blows all you out of the watter but the problem is it will cost a lot! And hub motors get the shit end of the stick because they already weigh more!

 

[mrbill]

.

If we're talking about bicycles, I prefer a requirement that its operator be able to pedal it under human power only on flat, windless ground at some reasonable speed, such as 18mph. Then place a limit on maximum sustained motor power (for a hill climb event) or on maximum stored energy (for an endurance event).

The problem is those things are nearly impossible for an organizer to test. Weight is super easy to test (just have a scale at the event) ...and keeps someone from just slapping pedals on what obviously is just an electric motorcycle with pedals.

This is more difficult than you think.

I have a simple bathroom scale that I can sort-of weigh my bike on if I don't mind straining my back. Takes three steps:

1) Weigh myself.
2) Weigh myself holding bike off the ground.
3) subtract (2) from (1) to get bike weight.

Problem is not all bikes can be lifted completely off the ground and carried even one step to a bathroom-style scale. (e.g. trikes fully loaded, velomobiles, or any bike without an easy-to-grasp frame member near the center of gravity that can support the entire bike's weight) Even if the bike can be lifted, it's awkward and can throw out a weak back.

Ok, then maybe measure the weight over each wheel. This might work if the scale accuracy can be trusted at low weight. Not all bathroom scales are accurate below 50 lbs. Then you also have to make sure the bike is level when measuring at each wheel such that placing a scale under a wheel does not negatively bias the measurement.

An industrial scale with a large pad might work for a short wheelbase bike, but then these things are neither cheap nor easy to bring to an event. We're getting beyond "super easy" at this point.

 

[Hillhater]

Whilst i dont really see the point of a weight check, digital weigh scale sets for multi wheel calibrations are commonly available and relatively cheap.
A simple,... " pedal it un powered up this 10% slope" ... test would be easier and root out all the overweight Emoto's !
..and if it doesnt ,..make it a 20% slope !

 

[TylerDurden]

A simple,... " pedal it un powered up this 10% slope" ... test would be easier and root out all the overweight Emoto's !
..and if it doesnt ,..make it a 20% slope !

Ja... weight becomes a self-policing factor in proportion to the non-powered component of an event.

 

[neptronix]

Reality check time!

1) It takes money ( testing equipment, labor ), and time ( again, labor ) to enforce all these rules proposed. Otherwise, you can make rules, but nobody will follow them.

2) If you want to go up pike's peak, or work towards different rules, you get to deal with Pat; the guy who ignores phone calls, flakes out, and seems to have a contempt for electric bikes as a whole. Good luck with that.

3) There are half a dozen electric entrars in the race every year. This makes #1 not economically feasible to do in the least.

Electric bike racing is too small to support an infrastructure of rules. There isn't money in it either. Let's not ruin it just yet :]

 

[Warren]

What exactly are we trying to promote with these races? If it is speed AND efficiency, how about average speed divided by Wh/mi. Highest quotient wins.

Say I build a light, low power bike, where 1/3 to 1/2 the energy comes from my pedaling. I ride the race at 20 mph average, at 10 Wh/mi. The quotient is 2.

Cedric Lynch races in his Agni streamliner (lets assume he has added pedals) at 50 mph average, and uses 25 Wh/mi. We have a tie! These numbers are pretty close to actual figures for my bike, and his.

Mr. Bill, Bill Bates, and Josh Kerson have posted data for various events, and they seem to come in about 2, plus or minus a few tenths, for speeds of 25-30 mph.

 

[Josh K.]

Introducing: NEBRA, the National Electric Bicycle Racing association.

The NEBRA promotes the advancement in Safety, and efficiencies in electrical assist bicycle racing.

Following the Federal Guidelines defining bicycles with Electric assist, All entries will follow the class rules, 750 watt street legal, up to
3,000 watt off road racing vehicles, and above 3,000 watts, get booted up and into the Electric Motorcycle racing categories. Call NEDRA
for details.

All racing vehicles will use a fuel meter, and report data from the races. Cycle Analyst required.

Wham Meters for range events, limiting overall watts for each event, cutting out after 500 watts of fuel use, any battery type welcome.
Fuel Cells allowed. Tom Breedlove's, Watt Hour Allotment Meter, to be developed soon!

With such a structure in place, Manufactures, designers, and engineers could work with a level playing field, and get into the real drivetrain
development area, for really advanced electric human hybrids, with the best riders, the best equipment, and safety first as a goal. This can
promote E bikes as an industry, and allow for friendly competition, and advancements in designs.

Otherwise, the biggest wallet, Battery, motor, and controller wins, regardless of safety, rider ability, and efficiencies. For these guys,
3,000 watt limit, Open off road class, trikes, bikes, trailers.

Over 3,500 watts, is over the low powered scooter definition. Over 3,500 watts, is MotorCycle class, and should be bumped into NEDRA.
Sure, I would love to bring my 50 volt, 500 amp, 300 lb trike to Pikes Peak, but someone should draw the line, before kids end up going
over the edge...I am not apposed to a over 3,500 watt, E bike, Drag racing class, for an actual drag race track. PIR can hold it, and I have
set a line in the sand, with 74 mph, and a 11.9 timed run, with pedal input right through the finish line. We will see more if it, but it
should not be just lumped into a fun ride on the twisty ist road ever. You Know?

Our Electric Bike Range Event, in the Tour De Sol, in 2004 and 2005, was the beginning, in my opinion. And I am sure that we will see
more and more folks showing up to these few and far in between events. It was great to hear about these trikes coming in from Alabama
or wherever, and kicking some Optipunk butt. But, in reality, what does it prove when no rules are followed? Where will it go?

It is my vision to see a level playing field, for companies to compete, with team riders, and the lightest equipment available, to drive
the designs forward, like any other industry. Several classes of vehicles, will simply help to keep it "Fair". Monster bikes are cool, but,
better when ridden by professionals, who are goal oriented, to promote the industry. Wait till Audi Gets a rider who knows how to actually
pedal an E bike, with assist...

Ideas? Josh K.

Volunteers wanted, Contact Josh K.

 

[remf]

That sounds fair but are these power limits measured at the wheel? Or drain from the CA? If measured at the wheel, I'm guessing you'd need a dyno at the finish line. Drain from the CA would be easier and probably fine for the purpose. Measured at the wheel would highlight said efficiencies. Any weight limits proposed?

 

[Green Machine]

What impresses me is when a bike can win or even finish a race such as pikes and then someone offer the same bike to the public not afraid of federal power limits or speed limits.

Auto companies have used pikes to test new cars to see if they can perform in rigorous conditions.

i like what ffr trikes and optibike has done with this race and their bikes.