Quick disconnect for phase wires

[Eastwood]

So I’m looking to make a quick Connect/disconnect for my phase wires on the swing arm. Trying to find something that can handle high current and also waterproof. I thought about using the 180 amp pole connectors, they handle up to 350 A but they’re not waterproof.

Do you guys have any suggestions for connectors? Maybe some beefier connectors that can handle more current.
My max phase is 550 but normal don’t go above 450 phase amps.

Basically I have two different hub motors that I’ll be using on my Enduro frame and would like to be able to have a quick way to disconnect and reconnect the phase and hall sensor wires. It’s a real pain to remove the plastic covers and controller to unbolt the phase wires, not to mention pulling the wires back through the frame is not so easy or quick.

 

[_GonZo_]

Try MIL connectors, there are many kinds and they are waterproof.

 

[amberwolf]

If waterproof is a requirement, cost (and possibly size) is generally going to go up quickly for connectors that handle high phase currents properly.

If you don't *need* waterproof, but just water resistant, and not super expensive, you can use those Anderson PP180s, or for easier-to-hold-and-disconnect housings, you can use two of the Anderson SB-series; one will have an unused contact housing spot and one phase wire, the other will have two phase wires. SB series can bolt togehter, and also have T-handles available for quick-release pulling. You can bolt down the controller side to the frame, and a T-handle on the motor side for easy release. NOt sure these are available for the PP series.

They make quite hefty ones, but they are physically very large. Also, the bigger they are, the harder they are to get apart; even with the PPs you might have to keep a pry tool with you to separate them. They make at least two versions of contacts, with different retention forces, so using the lower RF versions will make it a little eaiser to unplug, but not all that much.

For water resistance, fill the entire housing before plugging together with dielectric grease.

I don't know if they make the water-resistant housing covers and strain reliefs for the larger connector versions, but the Anderson page will list and spec them if they do.

Note that all Anderson PP/SB/etc contacts have a caveat: If the wire entering the back of the contact cannot "float" inside the housing without being pulled or pushed to the side, twisted, etc., the contacts won't sit flat against each other and therefore be higher resistance than they should be, because only the edge of the contact is conducting instead of the flat. The force required for the contact to stay flat is provided by a spring in the housing, and larger housings ahve bigger springs, so this is usually only a problem with PP45s, and sometimes wiht SB50s and PP75s with very heavy gauge wires. But if your wire bends near the housing it may push or pull on or twist the contact at an angle enough to prevent full seating of contacts.


I've usually used SB50s and/or PP75s on my battery and phase connections on the SB Cruiser trike; these are exposed on the underside of the trike and have been submerged in flashfloods at least twice, and get wet from splash in every infrequent but very heavy rain on my work commutes, with no issues over the years due to that. I don't use the dielectric fill trick (I did on CrazyBike2 but the hot roads in summer always melted it out of them so I gave up).



Cannon makes very good very waterproof connectors (Like the MIL) that are not difficult to disconnect (twist outer ring to release or to lock), but htey are expensive and bulky and require the very specific crimper for the specific contacts in that connector to make the correct onnection without damaging the contact or wire, and still let the pins fit and float in the housings correctly.

 

[Eastwood]

For water resistance, fill the entire housing before plugging together with dielectric grease.

Good to know :thumb: thanks!

And for the backside of the PP180s probably would fill it with black silicone. I was also thinking could probably make a thin rubber gasket that fits between the male and female connector, sand down some of the plastic material to allow for the space for a rubber gasket. (or just wrap some gorilla tape around it :lol:

What are the options for waterproof connectors for the phase wires? I’ve tried looking but I can’t find anything that can handle the current.

do you think those PP180s are sufficient for that much current? I use the phase current often because of off-road use/enduro riding, Lots of stop and go.

 

[gobi]

What gauge wire will you be using for EACH phase wires?

10 awg?

minnkota or other marine plugs, I will dig up what is out there. My cheapo minnkota does 50A I believe.

 

[Eastwood]

Try MIL connectors, there are many kinds and they are waterproof.

Thanks, those look like some quality connectors :thumb:

What gauge wire will you be using for EACH phase wires?

10 awg?

minnkota or other marine plugs, I will dig up what is out there. My cheapo minnkota does 50A I believe.

Well I’m using 8 gauge right now but I will probably go bigger. That’s why I was hoping to find some beefier connectors then the PP180s

Edit: actually the QS205 I believe comes with 10ga, but yeah I’m looking to go at least 6 ga. Or at least from the controller to the swingarm and then inside the motor could be slightly smaller

 

[calab]

Anderson PowerPole has a bigass connector for 6 ga. SB350 google it

 

[amberwolf]

For water resistance, fill the entire housing before plugging together with dielectric grease.

Good to know :thumb: thanks!

And for the backside of the PP180s probably would fill it with black silicone.

If you do this, you may defeat the required "floating" contact part of the design, and interfere with the ability for the contacts to mate flat to each other, increasing the resistance of the contact.

That's why I suggested the dielectric grease, because it remains a gel the contact can displace and does not interfere with the design, and it fills all of the housing so water can't intrude, doing the same job the silicone does. (but without the problem silicone has of attracting water, and the problem of some types of silicone of being acidic and corroding the metal it touches).

YOu can get softer silicones (like DragonSkin or EcoFlex platsil from Reynolds Advanced Materials) that are very very soft and flexible that won't interfere as badly (and soften them even more with up to 10% silicone oil added to it during mixing), but the generic silicone in caulk guns from home improvment stores and the like is going to be a lot harder.

If you're set on the black silicone, don't put it inside the housing at all, just make a hollow cone of it around the wire outside the housing, with the wide cone edge touching/bonded to the edge of the housing. It'd still seal the area but it will be flexible enough to allow the contact / housing to work as intended.

I was also thinking could probably make a thin rubber gasket that fits between the male and female connector, sand down some of the plastic material to allow for the space for a rubber gasket. (or just wrap some gorilla tape around it :lol:

If it's filled with dielectric grease, it doesn't need another seal unless it gets so hot that it melts the grease (even then, everything is still coated with it, keeping water off). For the stuff they sell at Checker for battery terminals, that takes at least 130-140F, the temperature of the air inches from the road surface at breezeless intersections in the midday summer sun, sitting there on my bike (or trike) waiting for the light to change and the cars to move.

What are the options for waterproof connectors for the phase wires? I’ve tried looking but I can’t find anything that can handle the current.

do you think those PP180s are sufficient for that much current? I use the phase current often because of off-road use/enduro riding, Lots of stop and go.

With 550 phase amps, sustained, you'd want to use the Anderson SB350 series that is designed for 500A.

They do make a 3-contact version of some housings, but not this one, so you would need two housings on controller side and two on motor side. The housings will each be about the size of the palm of a hand 70mm x 107mm (2.75" x 4.25"), to hold wo contacts in one, and one contact in the other. Length of the connected pairs of housings will be about 183mm (7.2")

Looks like they only make the high-force contacts for this one. Each contact is about 20mm (3/4") wide, and about 78mm (3") long, roughly finger-sized. Contacts are available for 1/0g up to "350mcm", or 185 sq mm.

https://www.andersonpower.com/content/dam/app/ecommerce/product-pdfs/SB350/ds-sb350.pdf

SB 350
Up to 350 mcm (185mm2) Wires
Allows UL rated currents up to 500 amps
Chemical resistant housing option
Extends temperature range down to -40°C, while offering enhanced UV and chemical resistance
Same housings used for wire and busbar contacts
Enables color-coded mechanically keyed wire to busbar connections

YOu could try the smaller ones, as long as your currents aren't sustained at 550A and stay closer to the ratings of the smaller ones; I'm using hte SB50s (rated up to 120A) for up to a couple hundred peak amps a few seconds max but my setup only sustains about 60-80A max, so I don't know how they would perform at higher than rated levels.

The SB175 is good for 10g to 1/0g wire, up to 280A, maybe a bit more than 2/3 the size of the sb350, and it comes in a 3-contact housing so you only need one pair of housings. Would be a lot smaller in total.

 

[gobi]

https://www.amazon.com/attwood-Heavy-Duty-Trolling-Connectors-2-Wire/dp/B01J60IU7E

https://www.amazon.com/attwood-Connector-Trolling-Motor-Male/dp/B001O0D6NI

10 awg and 8 awg


6 awg -

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09FKXR817

 

[amberwolf]

I'd venture those are not going to work; the only one I see with a current rating is only up to 50A, less than a tenth of the current he's after. :/

 

[gobi]

I'd venture those are not going to work; the only one I see with a current rating is only up to 50A, less than a tenth of the current he's after. :/

sustained?
I have the dinky 10 awg wire one, I have sustained 20a to 30a and burst 50a when I am casing a cow blue gill

 

[amberwolf]

He'd have to answer that, but my guess is way over 50A, probably at least two or three times that, if he can get 550 peaks.

 

[Eastwood]

If you do this, you may defeat the required "floating" contact part of the design, and interfere with the ability for the contacts to mate flat to each other, increasing the resistance of the contact.

Yeah was thinking if I connected the male and female connectors to have the flush connection and then filled the backside with silicone. Maybe that would help but like you said use a really soft silicone that allows for movement.

YOu can get softer silicones (like DragonSkin or EcoFlex platsil from Reynolds Advanced Materials) that are very very soft and flexible that won't interfere as badly (and soften them even more with up to 10% silicone oil added to it during mixing), but the generic silicone in caulk guns from home improvment stores and the like is going to be a lot harder.

If you're set on the black silicone, don't put it inside the housing at all, just make a hollow cone of it around the wire outside the housing, with the wide cone edge touching/bonded to the edge of the housing. It'd still seal the area but it will be flexible enough to allow the contact / housing to work as intended.


They do make a 3-contact version of some housings, but not this one, so you would need two housings on controller side and two on motor side. The housings will each be about the size of the palm of a hand 70mm x 107mm (2.75" x 4.25"), to hold wo contacts in one, and one contact in the other. Length of the connected pairs of housings will be about 183mm (7.2")

Looks like they only make the high-force contacts for this one. Each contact is about 20mm (3/4") wide, and about 78mm (3") long, roughly finger-sized. Contacts are available for 1/0g up to "350mcm", or 185 sq mm.

https://www.andersonpower.com/content/dam/app/ecommerce/product-pdfs/SB350/ds-sb350.pdf



YOu could try the smaller ones, as long as your currents aren't sustained at 550A and stay closer to the ratings of the smaller ones; I'm using hte SB50s (rated up to 120A) for up to a couple hundred peak amps a few seconds max but my setup only sustains about 60-80A max, so I don't know how they would perform at higher than rated levels.

The SB175 is good for 10g to 1/0g wire, up to 280A, maybe a bit more than 2/3 the size of the sb350, and it comes in a 3-contact housing so you only need one pair of housings. Would be a lot smaller in total.

Thanks for all the info!

 

[Eastwood]

The SB175 is good for 10g to 1/0g wire, up to 280A, maybe a bit more than 2/3 the size of the sb350, and it comes in a 3-contact housing so you only need one pair of housings. Would be a lot smaller in total.

Yeah the SB175 “size” is a lot better. The SB350 is too big but can definitely handle the current. The SB175 seems much more practical but Not sure it can handle the demand.

So let’s say I’m using the max of 550 phase amps, how much current does each phase wire see? I’ve read on this several times and I grasp the concept that the power shifts between phases but I’m not sure if each phase wire sees the total amps?

 

[amberwolf]

So let’s say I’m using the max of 550 phase amps, how much current does each phase wire see?

If your motor is wired in Wye (star), like most hubmotors, each pair of phases is in series, so each pair of actively driven phases sees the full current (but half the voltage), in pulses (PWM + commutation), since they are connected across the active pair of FET bridges.

If it's in Delta, like many RC motors, each phase pair is driven "in parallel", but still sees the full phase current, as above (but all the voltage).


Now, the actual phase current at any instant varies with load, battery voltage, back-EMF on the mtoor (it's speed vs it's kV), etc.

If you have 550 set for max, then that's just the max possible current. The actual current is typically higher than battery current at the same instant, but you'd have to see if your controller can monitor and display (or log) actual phase currents to find out what they really are.

If t he controller does not have current sensors on each phase, or at least on two of htem, it can't tell you what the phase current is, it can only monitor battery current (most common ebike controllers). Any FOC controller will have phase current monitoring (required to make FOC work).

If you don't have a way to monitor actual phase currents, you can only guess based on battery current, assuming it is at least 1.5-2x that (could be higher).

 

[Eastwood]

If you have 550 set for max, then that's just the max possible current. The actual current is typically higher than battery current at the same instant, but you'd have to see if your controller can monitor and display (or log) actual phase currents to find out what they really are.

Maybe these will work, its rated for 500amps.
They’re kind of expensive considering I will need 3. Plus 3 additional female or male connectors for the second motor
https://www.arc-zone.com/dinse-cable-connector-ldc-95-black

 

[Eastwood]

So let’s say I’m using the max of 550 phase amps, how much current does each phase wire see?

If your motor is wired in Wye (star), like most hubmotors, each pair of phases is in series, so each pair of actively driven phases sees the full current (but half the voltage), in pulses (PWM + commutation), since they are connected across the active pair of FET bridges.

If it's in Delta, like many RC motors, each phase pair is driven "in parallel", but still sees the full phase current, as above (but all the voltage).


Now, the actual phase current at any instant varies with load, battery voltage, back-EMF on the mtoor (it's speed vs it's kV), etc.

Great, thanks for explaining this!

 

[Eastwood]

https://www.amazon.com/attwood-Heavy-Duty-Trolling-Connectors-2-Wire/dp/B01J60IU7E

https://www.amazon.com/attwood-Connector-Trolling-Motor-Male/dp/B001O0D6NI

10 awg and 8 awg


6 awg -

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09FKXR817

Yeah these are to small as amberwolf pointed out. Thanks for posting the links tho :wink:

 

[calab]

Waterproof is the key, I listed some near the bottom but they are bulky.

https://powerwerx.com/anderson-power-powerpole-sb-connectors?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Anderson&utm_term=anderson%20power%20connectors&utm_content=Anderson%20Power%20Connector#?specs=314

Fancy little handles that take up no space whatsoever. :wink:

PP180's look good for 180a
You could parallel them if need be, that is always an option and is done in certain pcb trace designs to gain amperage capacities.

8mm bullets - https://www.progressiverc.com/products/8mm-bullet-connectors
ditto https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=hh-cas-cc_bullet_8.0mm

Amass 7mm - https://www.arrishobby.com/products/amass-as150-connectors-anti-spark-7mm-gold-bullet-as150-male-female-connector?VariantsId=13802

https://www.cnconnectors.com/portfolio-item/200a-3000v-dc-high-voltage-connector-plug-2

http://www.iconnector-tech.com/

waterproof

Anderson PowerPole has a bigass connector for 6 ga. SB350 google it

 

[dogman dan]

Beats me why it needs to be waterproof. Halls yes, but not the phases. You won't want salt water in the plug, but fresh won't be as big a deal.

An RC hobby bullet will not need to be floating at the back, so the housing can get sealed at the back. Then a bit of tape can seal off the crack where the male and female come together.

To handle higher current, six of them, instead of three, if you can't find any big enough for your needs.

Or, your big ass andersons could connect inside some kind of water resisting box. Or, you could just locate the connector on top of a fender of some kind, but under your ass and the seat.

 

[stan.distortion]

If you have 550 set for max, then that's just the max possible current. The actual current is typically higher than battery current at the same instant, but you'd have to see if your controller can monitor and display (or log) actual phase currents to find out what they really are.

Maybe these will work, its rated for 500amps.
They’re kind of expensive considering I will need 3. Plus 3 additional female or male connectors for the second motor
https://www.arc-zone.com/dinse-cable-connector-ldc-95-black

I was going to suggest those, you should be able to get them at very reasonable prices. Not sure how reliable the connection is though, they're occasionally troublesome on welders and are a fairly primitive design, only a bar in a tube when all said and done, a single line of contact. Some come with splits though, self-sprung but brass still oxidises and its electrical resistance is surprisingly high.

 

[DogDipstick]

Omg. I cannot imagine having those big thangs on my swingarm. Lol. Then three of them? Six total? Lol. it will be like starpping a hoagie to the swinger.

I am just using gold XT150 or an EC5. Then covered with heat shrink permanently, to be replaced whenever removed. . They will coconut all the current the wire can handle.

If you want a solid conduction path, why use a line break at all? The motor comes with an unbroken wire with lugs.

 

[999zip999]

This makes me want to just solder and shrink wrap.
As the options look huge.

 

[gobi]

He'd have to answer that, but my guess is way over 50A, probably at least two or three times that, if he can get 550 peaks.

Good point,
550a peak yikes, wait that is burst, so what would the RMS amp be in each cable, or how would one calculate heat generation and thickness of wire needed.

 

[larsb]

8mm gold bullet connectors with one of those waterproof joining sleeves is what i’d do. You just scrap the connection part inside the sleeve and fit the bullets instead

This is just an example: https://directvoltage.com/shop/led-grow-lights/wiring-and-connectors-for-grow-lights/waterproof-connector-for-wire-ip68-connector-ca8-pg9-3p-electrical-cable-connector-3pin-sealed-retardant-junction-boxes/