Qulbix Raptor ebike + frame kit
- Thread starter sk8norcal
- Start date
A dirtbike is going to lose grip easily because you have gearing and so much more power than our tiny cromotors without gears can do. You can also drop that clutch and spin it no problem.
Is 4300 not that much power? I am not sure here, I only weigh around 135LBS and use a smaller 17" tire, so I would assume that 4300watts is a reasonable amount of power for my weight and tire size. Will pushing higher watts cause my tire to spin out where it doesn't do it now? I don't know, maybe it could. But with 4300 watts I am unable to spin the shinko 241 tire.
I am sure my tire probably does spin out on occasion as I full throttle on gravel and wood chip paths, but this has never caused the tire to push to the side and have me lose control.
One of the reasons I never adjusted higher from 4300 watts is this offered me more than enough power for anything I was doing. I also am too lazy to reprogram the controller. If I had the Max-E and could adjust the power from the console I would turn it up. Another reason is that I purposely don't want to use too much power because I do a lot of stupid things with this bike and drive very aggressively, I don't want to fall and get hurt. I made the decision to slowly increase the power as my riding skills get better and I recommend others do the same.
Pushing 10K watts without getting used to the power will be a sure way to get hurt. I also did the unexpectedly wheelie yesterday, if I was pushing much higher watts I may have just crashed.
Is 4300 not that much power? I am not sure here, I only weigh around 135LBS and use a smaller 17" tire, so I would assume that 4300watts is a reasonable amount of power for my weight and tire size. Will pushing higher watts cause my tire to spin out where it doesn't do it now? I don't know, maybe it could. But with 4300 watts I am unable to spin the shinko 241 tire.
I am sure my tire probably does spin out on occasion as I full throttle on gravel and wood chip paths, but this has never caused the tire to push to the side and have me lose control.
One of the reasons I never adjusted higher from 4300 watts is this offered me more than enough power for anything I was doing. I also am too lazy to reprogram the controller. If I had the Max-E and could adjust the power from the console I would turn it up. Another reason is that I purposely don't want to use too much power because I do a lot of stupid things with this bike and drive very aggressively, I don't want to fall and get hurt. I made the decision to slowly increase the power as my riding skills get better and I recommend others do the same.
Pushing 10K watts without getting used to the power will be a sure way to get hurt. I also did the unexpectedly wheelie yesterday, if I was pushing much higher watts I may have just crashed.
ok i will save myself time to ask WTF?!
Your Cycle Analyst has 3 Modes.
you can setup those modes with different Power setups + different Throttle Setups.
My Mode 1 is a legal one (not interessting for you)
Mode 2 i use my PAS for commute....(doesnt look interessting too
)but Mode 3 you can Setup everything you want.
a Current Limit, Power Limit, Speedlimit or everything together.
Open your controller to Maximum you trust him. Setup Max POWER about 4500w. And you ever get your 4500w ...even when the voltage sags.(rise current)
But the better way is just a Poti on AUX Connector.
with this little Poti you can Handle your Powerlevel from 0w to 10000w (everthing you set)
no need to go in Setup Mode of CA, no need to Programm your Controller.
Rix
100 TW
Offroader said:
Are you messing with our heads?
Wrote this up in another thread but I'll post it here also for those interested.
Finally built my wheel using 9/10 gauge spokes. Took me like a full day to build and true the wheel/
The holes were not that hard to enlarge. I used 3 drill bits in #26,#27, and #28 to enlarge in 3 steps about .1mm each step. So about .3mm for each hole. Spokes had to be tapped in with a hammer until it cleared the opposite flange because of the tight fit, very stiff spoke, and angle going in to clear opposite flange. Spokes then had to be forcefully bent into place as 9/10 gauge don't bend easily.
This wheel build was by far my best build yet. Perfect uniform tension on each spoke, and the spokes are tightened down very tight or very high tension, close to dirt bike specifications but not as high as I worry about breaking the flange. If these spokes continuously loosen then I will go even tighter / higher tension on the spokes and closer to dirtbike specs.
Wheel was trued to about .01" or .25mm. Spokes were stress relieved multiple times. Hopefully it won't come out of true by much during my first ride.
This is my 5th complete wheel build in about 1200 miles / 4 months of riding with the motorcycle prowheel rims. All previous wheel builds failed multiple times, using 13 gauge, 12 gauge, and 11/12 gauge. Most times I would break about 5 or 6 spokes on a hard hit and I would replace those spokes without removing the tire or doing a complete wheel build. This should hopefully make it understandable why I decided to go with such large spokes.
This is a ridiculously strong wheel I have built here with high quality spokes. Those 9 gauge elbows are just massive, which is important because almost all my spokes broke at the elbows. The other issue I had was spokes that pulled right out of the nipple instead of breaking at the elbow. Depending on the spoke, usually the nipple threads failed and spoke was fine, but I had a 12 gauge that had the spoke threads fail. The threads on these 9/10 should be stronger and hopefully won't pull out of the nipple. I recently had a single 12 gauge spoke pull out of the nipple while doing a stair climb, made a nice pop sound. However, the nipples I used for this build were brass which may not be as strong as the steal nipples I used for my 13,12, and 11/12 build.
If I break these spokes I don't know what the heck I am going to do to build a stronger wheel.
Some issues which should be minor. Because I use an alternating pattern the inner spokes extended past the nipple about 1mm. The outer spokes were mostly about 2-3mm below top of nipple with about two spokes around 4mm below top of nipple. Even though they were 4mm below nipple the spokes still had 3x the diameter of the 10 gauge spoke which I heard is the max that will grab anyway.
The other issue is the spoke doesn't wrap around the flange near the elbow as tightly as the thinner spokes. I'm not sure why this mattered and if it matters in my case.
The obvious place for next breakage will most likely be the flange. I am hoping that because of the sharp spoke angles that some force are distributed sideways in the flange and not completely up, so that the spoke doesn't pull through the thin steal above the spoke hole in the flange.
Finally built my wheel using 9/10 gauge spokes. Took me like a full day to build and true the wheel/
The holes were not that hard to enlarge. I used 3 drill bits in #26,#27, and #28 to enlarge in 3 steps about .1mm each step. So about .3mm for each hole. Spokes had to be tapped in with a hammer until it cleared the opposite flange because of the tight fit, very stiff spoke, and angle going in to clear opposite flange. Spokes then had to be forcefully bent into place as 9/10 gauge don't bend easily.
This wheel build was by far my best build yet. Perfect uniform tension on each spoke, and the spokes are tightened down very tight or very high tension, close to dirt bike specifications but not as high as I worry about breaking the flange. If these spokes continuously loosen then I will go even tighter / higher tension on the spokes and closer to dirtbike specs.
Wheel was trued to about .01" or .25mm. Spokes were stress relieved multiple times. Hopefully it won't come out of true by much during my first ride.
This is my 5th complete wheel build in about 1200 miles / 4 months of riding with the motorcycle prowheel rims. All previous wheel builds failed multiple times, using 13 gauge, 12 gauge, and 11/12 gauge. Most times I would break about 5 or 6 spokes on a hard hit and I would replace those spokes without removing the tire or doing a complete wheel build. This should hopefully make it understandable why I decided to go with such large spokes.
This is a ridiculously strong wheel I have built here with high quality spokes. Those 9 gauge elbows are just massive, which is important because almost all my spokes broke at the elbows. The other issue I had was spokes that pulled right out of the nipple instead of breaking at the elbow. Depending on the spoke, usually the nipple threads failed and spoke was fine, but I had a 12 gauge that had the spoke threads fail. The threads on these 9/10 should be stronger and hopefully won't pull out of the nipple. I recently had a single 12 gauge spoke pull out of the nipple while doing a stair climb, made a nice pop sound. However, the nipples I used for this build were brass which may not be as strong as the steal nipples I used for my 13,12, and 11/12 build.
If I break these spokes I don't know what the heck I am going to do to build a stronger wheel.
Some issues which should be minor. Because I use an alternating pattern the inner spokes extended past the nipple about 1mm. The outer spokes were mostly about 2-3mm below top of nipple with about two spokes around 4mm below top of nipple. Even though they were 4mm below nipple the spokes still had 3x the diameter of the 10 gauge spoke which I heard is the max that will grab anyway.
The other issue is the spoke doesn't wrap around the flange near the elbow as tightly as the thinner spokes. I'm not sure why this mattered and if it matters in my case.
The obvious place for next breakage will most likely be the flange. I am hoping that because of the sharp spoke angles that some force are distributed sideways in the flange and not completely up, so that the spoke doesn't pull through the thin steal above the spoke hole in the flange.
Mammalian04
100 kW
Looks nice and beefy! Do you balance your wheels after putting on tires or just line the tire's "dot" up opposite the stem?
Tommy L
100 kW
I can't believe that I've been missing this Thread!
NICE!
Tommy L sends..... \m/ . . \m/
NICE!
Tommy L sends..... \m/ . . \m/
OffRoader, not all tire manufactures do it but there is a red dot, sometimes a yellow dot, sometimes both, if both together that's the stem location if red and yellow opposite red it stem, if just red then that is the stem position. It is just to start at the best point for the least amount of weights.
Remind me where you are located if you don't mind?
Remind me where you are located if you don't mind?
Rix
100 TW
As usual Offroader, top notch work there. Wheel looks great. You didn't mention, but did grind off the tops of the spokes that were protruding through the tops of the nipples? The other concern you have about the flange breaking breaking, I don't think that will be a concern, I say this because even though you drilled them out a little to accomodate the 9g portion of the spoke, the bigger surface area of the spoke also distributes more tension forces over a larger area. That can offset the slighty thinner area between the top of the spoke hole on and the top of the flange. Time will tell for sure, but I think you will be fine. I know on the 54xx and the 4080 I have laced up, there wasn't any issues what so ever. I had to puch a slightly bigger hole in the 4080 like you did to get my 8g units to fit. Again very nice wheel build.
Thanks Rix, I didn't grind them off because I lacked the tools and also wasn't sure if I was possibly going to relace it differently (maybe all spokes inside flange) because of this, I didn't want to change the spoke lengths. Since they were only out about 1mm - 1.2mm, I put bicycle rim tape over all the nipples and then I also used the rubber tire liner. Basically I doubled up on the protection. I think this should be sufficient as the tire tubes are very thick and I could barely feel the protruding spoke.
Here is an update on my first ride with the new wheel. I wrote this for another thread but I'll post it here also.
So I took the bike out today for a 27 mile run of almost complete offroading. My purpose was to vibrate those spokes loose and take the wheel out of true. Basically to test how good my wheel build was. I marked each nipple and spoke with white out as shown in the picture. I beat my bike as hard as I could on some pretty tough trails. I made sure to ram that rear tire hard while hopping logs, roots and anything I could.
I couldn't believe that the spokes didn't move at all. I was constantly checking it during my ride and could not believe that I had zero movement in the spokes.
You have to understand this is my 5th wheel build using these prowheel rims and I had constant loose spokes. Especially the rides after my wheel build. Each ride I actually turned my bike around and checked spoke tension. I was checking spoke tension and loose spokes multiple times per ride sometimes, it was driving me crazy.
It gets even better, I had the wheel trued to .01 inches or .25 mm after my build. When I got home I wondered how much my wheel came out of true. I figured it had to come out of true a little bit as all new wheel builds supposedly do? I could not believe that it was still within .01 or .25mm, it didn't move at all.
This wheel was so true that when I first starting riding my bike I thought my bike was power/watt limited at first as it felt slow. Basically the ride was so smooth that my bike felt slower, but my speed was still 40MPH as always. I felt like I was doing 30MPH when doing 40MPH. My other rims were bent and so out of true with bad wheel hops that they made the ride that harsh. Another interesting thing I thought is that when the road was very smooth it felt like I was floating on air as it was so smooth. This shows how important it is to have a very true wheel.
The other great thing was that it was such a relief to not worry about my wheel and spokes. I noticed that my confidence and riding skills have increased because I know my wheel can finally take the hits and won't pop (that's what it sounds like when I break 5+ spokes with one hard hit, which I unfortunately heard too often) or loosen up. I can concentrate more on the trails and not on if my wheel is going to fall apart or how loose the spokes are getting with the hits I am doing. I just bash my bike down the hardest trails.
I didn't climb stairs yet with the wheel. I figured I would work up to that as stairs seem to be very hard on my wheel builds. It's the climbing the stairs and not the riding down that is hard on the rear wheel. Part of me doesn't want to ruin my perfectly trued wheel with stairs, but I can't resist and was one of the reasons I built my bike. I think the rim should be able to take it now without any issues.
Here is an update on my first ride with the new wheel. I wrote this for another thread but I'll post it here also.
So I took the bike out today for a 27 mile run of almost complete offroading. My purpose was to vibrate those spokes loose and take the wheel out of true. Basically to test how good my wheel build was. I marked each nipple and spoke with white out as shown in the picture. I beat my bike as hard as I could on some pretty tough trails. I made sure to ram that rear tire hard while hopping logs, roots and anything I could.
I couldn't believe that the spokes didn't move at all. I was constantly checking it during my ride and could not believe that I had zero movement in the spokes.
You have to understand this is my 5th wheel build using these prowheel rims and I had constant loose spokes. Especially the rides after my wheel build. Each ride I actually turned my bike around and checked spoke tension. I was checking spoke tension and loose spokes multiple times per ride sometimes, it was driving me crazy.
It gets even better, I had the wheel trued to .01 inches or .25 mm after my build. When I got home I wondered how much my wheel came out of true. I figured it had to come out of true a little bit as all new wheel builds supposedly do? I could not believe that it was still within .01 or .25mm, it didn't move at all.
This wheel was so true that when I first starting riding my bike I thought my bike was power/watt limited at first as it felt slow. Basically the ride was so smooth that my bike felt slower, but my speed was still 40MPH as always. I felt like I was doing 30MPH when doing 40MPH. My other rims were bent and so out of true with bad wheel hops that they made the ride that harsh. Another interesting thing I thought is that when the road was very smooth it felt like I was floating on air as it was so smooth. This shows how important it is to have a very true wheel.
The other great thing was that it was such a relief to not worry about my wheel and spokes. I noticed that my confidence and riding skills have increased because I know my wheel can finally take the hits and won't pop (that's what it sounds like when I break 5+ spokes with one hard hit, which I unfortunately heard too often) or loosen up. I can concentrate more on the trails and not on if my wheel is going to fall apart or how loose the spokes are getting with the hits I am doing. I just bash my bike down the hardest trails.
I didn't climb stairs yet with the wheel. I figured I would work up to that as stairs seem to be very hard on my wheel builds. It's the climbing the stairs and not the riding down that is hard on the rear wheel. Part of me doesn't want to ruin my perfectly trued wheel with stairs, but I can't resist and was one of the reasons I built my bike. I think the rim should be able to take it now without any issues.
I wanted to add that it was obvious I didn't use enough tension on my other builds because the spokes were unloosening. Would more tension have stopped the spokes breaking on hard hits I don't know for sure. I thought I had those spokes reasonably tight.
So I am not going to say at this point that 9/10 gauge are better than 11/12 gauge or even 12 gauge when I didn't have my wheel tensioned properly.
Will I personally use smaller spokes again? absolutely not.
So I am not going to say at this point that 9/10 gauge are better than 11/12 gauge or even 12 gauge when I didn't have my wheel tensioned properly.
Will I personally use smaller spokes again? absolutely not.
Rix
100 TW
I didn't grind them off because I lacked the tools and also wasn't sure if I was possibly going to relace it differently (maybe all spokes inside flange) because of this, I didn't want to change the spoke lengths. Since they were only out about 1mm - 1.2mm, I put bicycle rim tape over all the nipples and then I also used the rubber tire liner. Basically I doubled up on the protection. I think this should be sufficient as the tire tubes are very thick and I could barely feel the protruding spoke.
Here is an update on my first ride with the new wheel. I wrote this for another thread but I'll post it here also.
So I took the bike out today for a 27 mile run of almost complete offroading. My purpose was to vibrate those spokes loose and take the wheel out of true. Basically to test how good my wheel build was. I marked each nipple and spoke with white out as shown in the picture. I beat my bike as hard as I could on some pretty tough trails. I made sure to ram that rear tire hard while hopping logs, roots and anything I could.
I couldn't believe that the spokes didn't move at all. I was constantly checking it during my ride and could not believe that I had zero movement in the spokes.
Glad this wheel is holding up for you. Kind of validates what I have been saying about bigger spokes making stronger wheels even though I have had to argue that point with a few wheel builders in the past. Even though you got the protruding spokes covered up with lots of layers, do yourself a favor, the next time you change a tire, grind off the spokes with a dremmel. With the spokes sticking up, all it takes is a bur on one of the spokes ends, twisting when you tighten, to work its way through your layers of rubber and poke hole in the tube. Its happend to me on motorcycles. Just a suggestion.
Rick
Here is an update on my first ride with the new wheel. I wrote this for another thread but I'll post it here also.
So I took the bike out today for a 27 mile run of almost complete offroading. My purpose was to vibrate those spokes loose and take the wheel out of true. Basically to test how good my wheel build was. I marked each nipple and spoke with white out as shown in the picture. I beat my bike as hard as I could on some pretty tough trails. I made sure to ram that rear tire hard while hopping logs, roots and anything I could.
I couldn't believe that the spokes didn't move at all. I was constantly checking it during my ride and could not believe that I had zero movement in the spokes.
Glad this wheel is holding up for you. Kind of validates what I have been saying about bigger spokes making stronger wheels even though I have had to argue that point with a few wheel builders in the past. Even though you got the protruding spokes covered up with lots of layers, do yourself a favor, the next time you change a tire, grind off the spokes with a dremmel. With the spokes sticking up, all it takes is a bur on one of the spokes ends, twisting when you tighten, to work its way through your layers of rubber and poke hole in the tube. Its happend to me on motorcycles. Just a suggestion.
Rick
Chalo
100 TW
Offroader said:
Allow me to reiterate what I have said many times before: FAT SPOKES DON'T STAY TIGHT. Spokes have to have some elasticity to stay tight, and to share point loads on the wheel among several spokes. Using thicker than necessary spokes (and almost all spokes are thicker than necessary, including 14ga) is harder on your rims, harder on your hubs, and makes your spokes loosen at lower loads.
The reason 14-15ga butted spokes are more or less standard among good quality bicycles is because they are just elastic enough to to a spoke's job well, while being torsionally stiff enough to make wheelbuilding easy. They are much stronger than they have to be for bicycles or e-bicycles.
In wheels on my own bikes, I have had a few spoke breakages in 14ga spokes, fewer in 14-15ga butted spokes, and none at all in 15-16ga or 14-17ga spokes. I have ridden these bikes as daily transportation even when I weighed over 400 pounds.
But of course someone who weighs half as much as I do, using a motor that develops a whole lot less torque tension on the spokes than I do, using a bike with suspension to cushion shock loads to its wheels, needs spokes with four to eight times the cross-section of what I use successfully. Right.
Please be ethical and report back to us when your stuff breaks, so you can help prevent others from making the same mistakes.
oh good to know chalo, i will tell my motocross buddies they dont need 9g spokes because they dont flex enough. try 12 or 13g on your 180Kg Rider Bike. Its still Enough.
serious plz show me your bikes and let me know what your doing with it.
cruising to work you would be right. But riding upstairs offroad with 20mph on a 150kg Bike you will see quick that a 16 or 17g SPOKE flexxes your ass of the bike :wink:
9g might be overkill for a 4KW Raptor Setup. But when someone is happy with it and it lasts -> right decision.
serious plz show me your bikes and let me know what your doing with it.
cruising to work you would be right. But riding upstairs offroad with 20mph on a 150kg Bike you will see quick that a 16 or 17g SPOKE flexxes your ass of the bike :wink:
9g might be overkill for a 4KW Raptor Setup. But when someone is happy with it and it lasts -> right decision.
Rix
100 TW
Chalo said:
Chalo, this is exactly what I was referring too when I referenced arguing with several wheel smiths in the past. I am not a wheel smith, but when I laced my first 19x1.4 rim to my 5403, I was using some high quality SS 12g or 11g units, cant remember exactly. I broke a couple of spokes on my very first ride, hell, I broke one just from tensioning, but that spoke was stainless steel like the others were. Then I went to 10g units, they stretched a little and required 2 or 3 truing sessions before those spokes took set and quit stretching, never broke any of the spokes, and they are still in use on the same wheel that is on my Dad's Bomber, going on the 3rd year now. Then on my 17x1.4 and 18x1.4 rims on the 5404, then 5405, and now my 4080, I used big 3.6mm (8g) spokes. No stretch after truing, and no maintenance after spokes took set. I am going to say this here and now to all of the wheel smiths out there, bigger spokes equal stronger wheels. Period. And in all fairness, the wheels smiths that disagree with me which I have debated this issue, were bicycle wheel smiths, not motorcycle wheel smiths, Infact the MC wheels smiths I have spoken with, agree with what I am saying its only the bicycle smiths that debate the issue. The only time this wouldn't be the case is if one was to compare a bigger spoke made out of crappy material to a smaller spoke made out of quality material, which could explain your experiences with your wheel builds. Offroader will be honest with his findings and I will tell you why. I pm'd him about his spoke breaking problem a while back. I put the offer out that if he tried high quality 8G units like I have used, and broke any of those spokes regardless of the circumstances, I would pay for replacement spokes, because I am that sure, based on my experiences, that his spoke breaking issues would be resolved. As we all know, Offroader ended up with 9/10g units. I'm certain of this, if the spokes he is running are at least the same quality as the straight 10g that I had used and my dad is currently using, he will not have any issues.
I weighed the 9/10 gauge vs the 12 gauge spokes.
Each 12 gauge spoke and nipple weighs around 8 grams.
Each 9/10 gauge spoke and nipple weigh around 11.5-12 grams grams.
Total weight is about 10.2 oz (290 grams) for 12 gauge and 15oz (432 grams for 9/10 gauge)
About 5 to 6 oz (~150 grams) more for the heavier spokes. I think it is way worth it to be honest when using a motorcycle rim where you can tension them properly.
From my experience the 11/12 gauge, 12 gauge, and 13 gauge didn't cut it. I continuously broke them and ruined 2 rims. When you break a bunch of spokes on a hard hit the rim is now bent and unrepairable for even a reasonable true. However, those thinner spokes will hold up to pretty well to most beatings, especially the 11/12 gauge and even the 12 gauge. I think most people may not have issues unless they beat the bike or hit a pot hole, which happened to me when I was being careful with the 12 gauge spokes and broke 14 spokes and ruined a $100 dollar one week old rim. So from my own personal experiences, yeah, I can say the thin spokes don't cut it. And this is from 4 complete wheel builds that failed, and also many times having to squeeze the tire to the side to replace 5 or 6 broken spokes. So I probably had to change spokes out around 10 times (needing to replace 5 or more spokes at one time) in 1200 miles /4 months riding.
I think the controversy here is the fact that thinner spokes are better for bicycle rims. You can't tension those thick spokes enough on a bicycle rim or you will bend it.
The other thing is that when using a motorcycle rim and tire you are able to drive so much harder and beat the bike so much more without fear of a pinch flat. The thinner gauge spokes just won't hold up to this.
My last ride proved that 9/10 gauge spokes can be tensioned high enough on a prowheel rim that they will not come loose. I see no advantage to using the thinner spokes, especially since you are only adding around 5 oz more of weight for the thicker spokes.
Rix had it right about recommending the thicker spokes, and I wished I listened to him from the beginning, but he was the only one who recommended thicker spokes. I listened to most people on the forum recommending the thinner spokes. I actually started at 13 gauge at first because that was recommended and they failed very quickly. It is not because the people are fully wrong, it is that they are recommending thinner spokes based on tensioning them to bicycle rims. They are not taking into account a 130lbs bike with a motorcycle rim and a rider who is smashing it on a lot of things with a bike that has the suspension and frame strength to easily smash the bike around.
I think 9/10 gauge may be the best option for the prowheel. 8 gauge may not be needed (more time will tell if the 9/10 gauge are strong enough) and you will have to enlarge the hole on the flange too much. 9 gauge at the elbows is very thick and I can't see that ever breaking. The 10 gauge is also all you need for the rest of the spoke and the threads are large so they won't pull through the nipple. The best way to put it is my cromotor now seems like it is welded to the rim.
Funny thing is that the front wheel I use 14/15 gauge. I have never trued this rim since I built it and when I checked how true it was within .3mm. As we know the front wheels are never an issue and also never pinch flat.
Each 12 gauge spoke and nipple weighs around 8 grams.
Each 9/10 gauge spoke and nipple weigh around 11.5-12 grams grams.
Total weight is about 10.2 oz (290 grams) for 12 gauge and 15oz (432 grams for 9/10 gauge)
About 5 to 6 oz (~150 grams) more for the heavier spokes. I think it is way worth it to be honest when using a motorcycle rim where you can tension them properly.
From my experience the 11/12 gauge, 12 gauge, and 13 gauge didn't cut it. I continuously broke them and ruined 2 rims. When you break a bunch of spokes on a hard hit the rim is now bent and unrepairable for even a reasonable true. However, those thinner spokes will hold up to pretty well to most beatings, especially the 11/12 gauge and even the 12 gauge. I think most people may not have issues unless they beat the bike or hit a pot hole, which happened to me when I was being careful with the 12 gauge spokes and broke 14 spokes and ruined a $100 dollar one week old rim. So from my own personal experiences, yeah, I can say the thin spokes don't cut it. And this is from 4 complete wheel builds that failed, and also many times having to squeeze the tire to the side to replace 5 or 6 broken spokes. So I probably had to change spokes out around 10 times (needing to replace 5 or more spokes at one time) in 1200 miles /4 months riding.
I think the controversy here is the fact that thinner spokes are better for bicycle rims. You can't tension those thick spokes enough on a bicycle rim or you will bend it.
The other thing is that when using a motorcycle rim and tire you are able to drive so much harder and beat the bike so much more without fear of a pinch flat. The thinner gauge spokes just won't hold up to this.
My last ride proved that 9/10 gauge spokes can be tensioned high enough on a prowheel rim that they will not come loose. I see no advantage to using the thinner spokes, especially since you are only adding around 5 oz more of weight for the thicker spokes.
Rix had it right about recommending the thicker spokes, and I wished I listened to him from the beginning, but he was the only one who recommended thicker spokes. I listened to most people on the forum recommending the thinner spokes. I actually started at 13 gauge at first because that was recommended and they failed very quickly. It is not because the people are fully wrong, it is that they are recommending thinner spokes based on tensioning them to bicycle rims. They are not taking into account a 130lbs bike with a motorcycle rim and a rider who is smashing it on a lot of things with a bike that has the suspension and frame strength to easily smash the bike around.
I think 9/10 gauge may be the best option for the prowheel. 8 gauge may not be needed (more time will tell if the 9/10 gauge are strong enough) and you will have to enlarge the hole on the flange too much. 9 gauge at the elbows is very thick and I can't see that ever breaking. The 10 gauge is also all you need for the rest of the spoke and the threads are large so they won't pull through the nipple. The best way to put it is my cromotor now seems like it is welded to the rim.
Funny thing is that the front wheel I use 14/15 gauge. I have never trued this rim since I built it and when I checked how true it was within .3mm. As we know the front wheels are never an issue and also never pinch flat.
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Offroader,
looks like you are getting lots of practice building & truing your wheels.. good job!
don't forget to use spoke prep when you lace up the wheel.. its like a soft grade thread lock..
spoke prep will help keep your spokes from loosening (if they are at proper tension) but can still be adjusted (trued).. but it looks like you used spoke prep from the pics?? (stuff on the nips
if the moto spokes keep coming loose after break-in maybe try a bit heavier grade lock-tight on the spoke threads if needed.. and yes motorcycle weight & power needs motorcycle strength parts, spokes included..
looks like you are getting lots of practice building & truing your wheels.. good job!
don't forget to use spoke prep when you lace up the wheel.. its like a soft grade thread lock..
spoke prep will help keep your spokes from loosening (if they are at proper tension) but can still be adjusted (trued).. but it looks like you used spoke prep from the pics?? (stuff on the nips
if the moto spokes keep coming loose after break-in maybe try a bit heavier grade lock-tight on the spoke threads if needed.. and yes motorcycle weight & power needs motorcycle strength parts, spokes included..
Offroader said:
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:Offroader,
looks like you are getting lots of practice building & truing your wheels.. good job!
don't forget to use spoke prep when you lace up the wheel.. its like a soft grade thread lock..
spoke prep will help keep your spokes from loosening (if they are at proper tension) but can still be adjusted (trued).. but it looks like you used spoke prep from the pics?? (stuff on the nips
if the moto spokes keep coming loose after break-in maybe try a bit heavier grade lock-tight on the spoke threads if needed.. and yes motorcycle weight & power needs motorcycle strength parts, spokes included..
I actually went for another 30 mile ride today, probably even harder than then yesterdays ride and none of the spokes moved at all. I'm at 60 miles of hard off-road trails and even riding down steps today on this wheel build.
That white stuff in the pics is actually "white out" to mark the spokes to see if any of them moved. It actually wasn't a bad idea to quickly spot loosening spokes, surprised nobody ever recommended that or something similar. Now instead of tapping all the spokes I just glance quickly at them. Todays ride was the first time I didn't even bother to bring my spoke wrench with me.
Thanks for the tip about the spoke prep. I actually tried purple Loctite 222, on my last 12 gauge wheel build and it didn't do much. Spokes still came loose. I think the key is to have proper tension, which if they are coming loose are probably too low. I think spoke prep may be needed more for bicycle rims that use 12 gauge spokes, since you probably can't tension them enough.
Yes I did get a lot of practice building them, and I think I finally figured it all out with this build. Working with the thicker spokes requires somewhat different skills than the thinner spokes. The key is knowing the proper amount of tension on the spokes and distributing them evenly. If you attempt the job without knowing this on the thicker spokes they will fail.
Thinner spokes seem much more unlikely to fail or come loose.
Learning to build wheels properly is a really nice skill to have. However, I can totally understand just paying someone to do it (if they can actually build them properly) as it takes a long time to build a hub motor wheel. It is even more time consuming the thicker the spokes. I'll spent hours building my last wheel and I thought I was building as efficiently as possible.
Does my raptor look like a dirt bike yet?
I rammed my hand into a tree trying hopping a log and it hurt like hell. The next day I caught my finger when my handlebar went over a wooden railing of a tiny wooden bridge and wedged my finger between the railing and the handlebar, this really hurt and tore the skin right off. So I decided to put my handguards back on which I used last winter to help with the cold.
I'm always riding through very narrow paths in the woods so I figure it is a good safety measure. It does add confidence when riding.
I notice for some reason when I have the handguards on people start really thinking dirtbike. I didn't make it more than a mile from my house and someone yelled from the sidewalk "hey, is that a dirtbike".
I rammed my hand into a tree trying hopping a log and it hurt like hell. The next day I caught my finger when my handlebar went over a wooden railing of a tiny wooden bridge and wedged my finger between the railing and the handlebar, this really hurt and tore the skin right off. So I decided to put my handguards back on which I used last winter to help with the cold.
I'm always riding through very narrow paths in the woods so I figure it is a good safety measure. It does add confidence when riding.
I notice for some reason when I have the handguards on people start really thinking dirtbike. I didn't make it more than a mile from my house and someone yelled from the sidewalk "hey, is that a dirtbike".
Rix
100 TW
Maybe the handguards are the association that we need to avoid if peopel start asking that question. They are very practical though. I had the occasion where a branch has activated my front and rear brakes, sucks, and hard to avoid the stack, as our aussing buddies call a spill or crash. Still, your bike looks neater than any DH bike I have seen.
ecruz said:
I don't mind the dirtbike look actually. But yeah, better gloves would help but may be hot for the summer. The other thing is you can really ram your hand into something and I'm not sure how much gloves would help. The other issue is I've layed or dropped my bike on the side and many times the brake pedal will hit something, this will help protect them.
I may take them off because I feel the bike gets too much attention with them on. Mostly I don't want to provoke the cops to the point they may have to stop me. The hand guards may just be enough or the tipping point.
You do feel safer with them on when woods riding, even when passing by cars when your hand is close to their mirror you also feel safer. I guess having rammed my hands twice in a row on two rides makes me more aware of my hands. I really believe they are better having them on than not, but we have to deal with the fact that we are driving illegal bikes on the street and even riding in places where bicycles are not even allowed.
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