Up grading to a new trike

[Papa]

If you use a motor driving the rear axle, you can have your desired redundancy without the traction problems you'd get by putting a drive motor in a wheel that doesn't bear enough weight.

If you had owned, and/or saddled a single seat delta (armed with a front hub), for any significant duration, you might just have a valid clue what you continue to rag about. Your persistent distaste and criticism for recumbents overall... speaks volumes.

 

[Chalo]

If you had owned, and/or saddled a single seat delta (armed with a front hub), for any significant duration, you might just have a valid clue what you continue to rag about. Your persistent distaste and criticism for recumbents overall... speaks volumes.

Every e-bike I've had save one has used a front hub motor, and has had several times as much axle weight on the front wheel as a wheelchair trike does. I have chopper bikes that are similarly rear-biased in weight distribution, which I'd be a fool to put a front hub motor on. So I think I can extrapolate in advising that it isn't a good idea to power the wheel that bears 25% or less of the vehicle's gross weight.

 

[Big Tom]

Every e-bike I've had save one has used a front hub motor, and has had several times as much axle weight on the front wheel as a wheelchair trike does. I have chopper bikes that are similarly rear-biased in weight distribution, which I'd be a fool to put a front hub motor on. So I think I can extrapolate in advising that it isn't a good idea to power the wheel that bears 25% or less of the vehicle's gross weight.

I thank you for your opinion but I think you are incorrect on a front hub in my application. You might be correct if you want the motor to be the driving force in what propels you. But me, my hub is a helper or an assist and works just great in my current setup.

Isn't it that that there are many different opinions and options.

Tom

 

[Chalo]

Sorry, these model trikes it is nearly impossible to add e-assist to the rear wheels without "major" modifications or losing the ability to pedal.

Not sure what you mean by major modifications, but I've fitted scores of pedicab trikes with 4kW rear axle drive that bolts on without mods to the trike.

 

[Big Tom]

Not sure what you mean by major modifications, but I've fitted scores of pedicab trikes with 4kW rear axle drive that bolts on without mods to the trike.

Below is pictures of the rear wheel assembly... both the actual drive from the axle and the assembly at the axle. Hub motors will not fit without "major modifications " .... also if you were to attach a motor to the axle (to drive both wheels) you would have to lose the IGH (or cassette) and the differential. Thus, making the tricycle a motorized vehicle here in Canada since it would not be able to be pedaled.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Below is pictures of the rear wheel assembly... both the actual drive from the axle and the assembly at the axle. Hub motors will not fit without "major modifications " .... also if you were to attach a motor to the axle (to drive both wheels) you would have to lose the IGH (or cassette) and the differential. Thus, making the tricycle a motorized vehicle here in Canada since it would not be able to be pedaled.

These two pictures are confusing to a curious mind.
Pictures appear to be from the newer model that has a shock at each rear wheel and is a two wheel drive.
Whereas in post #15 of this thread it's mention the trike is a 2010 model with one shock and one wheel drive.
Not that it matters . . . just curious.

Hase has more then one model with suspension. In fact my 2010 Hase Lepus Comfort has suspension only that it is a single rear under the seat.

 

[Big Tom]

These two pictures are confusing to a curious mind.
Pictures appear to be from the newer model that has a shock at each rear wheel and is a two wheel drive.
Whereas in post #15 of this thread it's mention the trike is a 2010 model with one shock and one wheel drive.
Not that it matters . . . just curious.

Not really confusing at all on my part, maybe for others .... as I said in my original post ....

I have a front hub ( MeZee350F_L10 ) and not too worried about high powered motors. I am looking at getting a full suspension trike. My main question is .... is there serious issues with suspension especially with suspension on the front forks with a front hub.

Basically I am looking at getting another trike (new). That above (in picture) is basically my old trike (current trike) with a few differences. I have a differential filling in the space in the axle so both wheels drive. Even that trike in that picture, it would require major modifications to add a motor onto the axle to drive both wheels.

The new trike, if it has suspension it would be as per the pictures I last posted.

Tom

 

[nicobie]

I'm curious why you didn't go for a tadpole style trike?

 

[PaPaSteve]

Not really confusing at all on my part, maybe for others .... as I said in my original post ....

Basically I am looking at getting another trike (new). That above (in picture) is basically my old trike (current trike) with a few differences. I have a differential filling in the space in the axle so both wheels drive. Even that trike in that picture, it would require major modifications to add a motor onto the axle to drive both wheels.

The new trike, if it has suspension it would be as per the pictures I last posted.

Tom

Gotcha . . . THX
You do realize there are several regular style upright e-bikes with 2 wheel drive i.e. motors on suspension forks ?
Certainly, there is a solution, money helps.

 

[PaPaSteve]

I'm curious why you didn't go for a tadpole style trike?

All wheel drive . . . if I understand Big Tom's design goal.
Not impossible with a tadpole but it would be a very rare beast.

 

[Big Tom]

Back in the early 2010's (when I did my research for my first e-assist motor) it was said to not use forks with shocks. Since then I have heard of others using shocks. Lately I have heard that 20" forks are not the quality of the larger mountain bike forks and it was still not recommended to put a hub into a fork with shocks.

This is why I asked on here because this forum has more knowledge then I do and is exposed to alot more things then I am.

Tom

 

[Big Tom]

I'm curious why you didn't go for a tadpole style trike?

When I got my trike back in 2010, there was really not any assisted internal gear hubs. I ride in the winter and I have had enough with derailleur in snow and ice. I wanted anmIGH. Plus I liked the turning radius of the delta over a tadpole. I had a quad before, was really tired of constantly tuning or trueing the front wheels. I liked the cargo area behind the seat without having to add a rack and bags. I could go on and on but the delta fit me best.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Back in the early 2010's (when I did my research for my first e-assist motor) it was said to not use forks with shocks. Since then I have heard of others using shocks. Lately I have heard that 20" forks are not the quality of the larger mountain bike forks and it was still not recommended to put a hub into a fork with shocks.

This is why I asked on here because this forum has more knowledge then I do and is exposed to alot more things then I am.

Tom

The thing about suspension is quality does count. Be prepared to spend $$$ ~ $$$$
A stock Kettwiesel Cross for $10,500 must be in the ball park ???
Adjustable compression and rebound hedges your bet.
To side step the "what spring rate to use " question having an air spring to play with could be helpful.
A modern smart phone has a 3 axis sensor that can be used to understand suspension movements . . . if you care to go that far.
Cheers.

 

[nicobie]

That is true. When racing desert cars we would spend more on the suspension than on the motor. And the motors weren't exactly cheap.

 

[Chalo]

Hub motors will not fit without "major modifications "

I'm not suggesting hub motors.

.... also if you were to attach a motor to the axle (to drive both wheels) you would have to lose the IGH (or cassette) and the differential.

When we convert a pedicab, we attach a second sprocket to the differential housing, and drive it with a chain from a shafted motor. You say it can't be done, but I've done it more times than I can remember. Between the conversions in the company fleet, the ones we've sold to other operators, and the ones others have reverse engineered from our design, there are hundreds of such kits in service right now.

Cyclone Motor kit - Complete motor and mount system

Patent Pending, Stainless steel construction. This is a complete bolt on (zero welding needed) system to attach a cyclone motor to pedicabs that use a 2 bolt axle bearing plates and have the rear brake mounted behind the rear axle. (all Classics and most San Diego pedicabs) This system improves...

precisionpedicab.com

I don't think our specific kit would retrofit to a Hase trike, but I have no doubt at all that a similar setup could be made to work with your trike. Without major modifications to it.

 

[Big Tom]

I'm not suggesting hub motors.



When we convert a pedicab, we attach a second sprocket to the differential housing, and drive it with a chain from a shafted motor. You say it can't be done, but I've done it more times than I can remember. Between the conversions in the company fleet, the ones we've sold to other operators, and the ones others have reverse engineered from our design, there are hundreds of such kits in service right now.

Cyclone Motor kit - Complete motor and mount system

Patent Pending, Stainless steel construction. This is a complete bolt on (zero welding needed) system to attach a cyclone motor to pedicabs that use a 2 bolt axle bearing plates and have the rear brake mounted behind the rear axle. (all Classics and most San Diego pedicabs) This system improves...

precisionpedicab.com

I don't think our specific kit would retrofit to a Hase trike, but I have no doubt at all that a similar setup could be made to work with your trike. Without major modifications to it.

I was saying a hub motor because ..... as I said above "I DO NOT WANT a motor connected into my drive chain". You keep pushing your point even if it is against what this thread is about. I am all for opinions and suggestions but please read what a poster wants and make the suggestions which might help .

I had been saying your suggestion would not work for me, you kept stressing that it would, without "major modifications " but then your last statement of ...

I don't think our specific kit would retrofit to a Hase trike, but I have no doubt at all that a similar setup could be made to work with your trike. Without major modifications to it.

As I said many times above, I am looking for another (new) trike and do not want a custom refurbished trike. But you did finally agree "YOUR" motor will NOT work for me and my needs, but then pushed it again.

Then I saw why you were pushing your suggestions, you are selling that model of motor

 

[PaPaSteve]

Big Tom
I completely understand what your saying . . .
However
When applying a Cyclone to the rear axle it can be done as two separate systems.
If the pedal system breaks the motor can get ya home and visa versa.
That's how this tandem trike was done some 10 or so years ago.
It took custom fabrication so is not an option for all uses.
Trike was originally built in 1977.
Rebuilt and upgraded several times.
Early 90's it was briefly fitted with a motor on the forks which, for this application did not work well.
Our son still uses it.

 

[amberwolf]

Since the only option that appears possible (given the limitations placed on the trike design and the results required) is a front hubmotor****:

Are there any dealers of the trike that you want near enough to you to go try one out, and talk to them about testing one with the front hubmotor that you want to use in the suspension fork that they have on there?

Or can you get details from them about the design of the fork they are using on it, (or the brand and specific model at least, so that you can research this) to then know if it has suitable internals and dropouts to work with the motor you want to use, and will also work as sufficient suspension for the riding conditions you expect?


****if you could fabricate (or have one made) a mount for it, you could use a "middrive" type of system to run the front wheel via chain or belt. If designed and mounted correctly it would avoid the issues that a hubmotor in the suspension forks can cause. The mount could clamp onto the fork like a cargo rack could, and so could also be removable for whatever reason might come up.

 

[Papa]

Last spring, I was asked by my brother-in-law (retired Colonel), to convert his Perormer Futuro Delta (image below). We used all of the components from a 26" mtb, including the front mounted gear hub - a MXUS XF15.

He rides primarily to his mail box (and occasional MUP), which is easily 200-250 yards distance... entirely on gravel and slightly uphill. The ONLY downside I detected was the limited, 15 mph top speed (due to the slow wind hub motor we used). Yes, you could undoubtedly spin the front wheel if throttled aggressively, but by NO means was it sensitive to traction loss. I made several test rides both with, and without pedal assist, as did the Bro. I grow increasingly intolerant of those who keep whining about 'traction loss' on FWD deltas.... when they don't even own one.

 

[PaPaSteve]

2x2 Electric Bike

Designed for exploration. Built for adventure. Road registrable and ready for adventure, on-road and off-road. Versatile and tough for commuters, delivery riders, or weekend warriors.

ubco.com

 

[Papa]

Re: Suspension forks on delta trikes

Worthy of note, while 'traction loss' is clearly evident when throttled aggressively, this attribute serves a distinct purpose - it limits any EXCESS torque applied to BOTH the fork... and the steertube. As with ALL hub motors, torque arms should be considered mandatory.

 

[eMark]

I am getting older and wanting to see if I can get a smoother ride, especially for touring. My trike currently has no front suspension (other than Big Apple tires). I have also been told that the newer rear suspension (independent rear, both wheel) is much better then what I currently have. My trike is about wore out and I am thinking of using my old trike for winter riding (new trike no salt and snow).

Is front fork suspension all that important when majority of the road feel is via the rear wheels. With that Big Apple tire (not so much inflation) the new improved model should be aok for enjoying longer touring journeys.

Isn't rear suspension your primary concern for riding enjoyment? If possible test out or just go ahead and order the newer improved model. You can always add a seat cushion for extra comfort and new shoes for any power pedaling. Would make for a nice Holiday present.

Happy New Year

 

[Big Tom]

Since the only option that appears possible (given the limitations placed on the trike design and the results required) is a front hubmotor****:

Are there any dealers of the trike that you want near enough to you to go try one out, and talk to them about testing one with the front hubmotor that you want to use in the suspension fork that they have on there?

Or can you get details from them about the design of the fork they are using on it, (or the brand and specific model at least, so that you can research this) to then know if it has suitable internals and dropouts to work with the motor you want to use, and will also work as sufficient suspension for the riding conditions you expect?


****if you could fabricate (or have one made) a mount for it, you could use a "middrive" type of system to run the front wheel via chain or belt. If designed and mounted correctly it would avoid the issues that a hubmotor in the suspension forks can cause. The mount could clamp onto the fork like a cargo rack could, and so could also be removable for whatever reason might come up.

I was able to chat today with one store in midtown Toronto that has a Kettweisel Evo in stock. I was asking if it had the full suspension and it does. The options included are not what I want and need so it would not be coming home with me, but I could go and check it out. The problem is that store is 1.5 hours away by car and my current trike is my transportation (I do not drive). I am in the process to see if I can find a way there, I do not think transit is a reliable option. There are only 3 Hase dealers in all of Canada and only a few recumbent shops. We do not have the same options that others have in other countries.

The front fork is a "Spinner 300". I have tried researching this fork (still trying). The manufacture website does not detail much on the makeup of the shock. I have emailed them asking questions, but still have not received any response.

I had the same issues back in 2009-2010, lots of research with not actual testing or firsthand knowledge.

Thank you, Tom

 

[Big Tom]

Is front fork suspension all that important when majority of the road feel is via the rear wheels. With that Big Apple tire (not so much inflation) the new improved model should be aok for enjoying longer touring journeys.

Isn't rear suspension your primary concern for riding enjoyment? If possible test out or just go ahead and order the newer improved model. You can always add a seat cushion for extra comfort and new shoes for any power pedaling. Would make for a nice Holiday present.

Happy New Year

You are correct. My current trike has a single rear shock. Todays suspended models are independent rear shocks. I have the choice of ridgid (no shocks), rear shocks (independent rear suspension), front fork shocks (Spinner 300) or a combination of the two for full suspension. I am looking into front shocks because in the past I have often thought my ride would be better with front shocks when riding on rough roads/trails. Because I am cautious or adding a hub motor into a fork with shocks, I brought up the question here to get other peoples knowledge and opinions.

I am looking into the independent rear suspension. Although that suspension looks very busy, complicated and alot going on (I prefer KISS) from what I can gather, it works very well with little issues. I did not bring up my question on rear suspension here as it did not involve an e-assist factor like the front fork did.

Thanks again, Tom

 

[PaPaSteve]

Looking at the Spinner manual it has all the basics for a solid first try.
The only question is how well the hub integrates.
With a torque arm it will undoubtedly be fine.
Happy Trails

https://www.spinner-usa.com/upload_files/spinnr-air-manual.pdf